New adventure! Ghosts of Dathomir

[AnomalousAuthor 506]

Before Qui-Gon, the Jedi accepted that death meant that they became one with the force, not that their own conscienceness would carry on in an eternal state. Their life essence would join the galactic force and for all intents and purposes their personal identity and conscienceness would cease to exist. Not that their personal identities mattered in the grand scheme to them at the time as only the force mattered and becoming one with it was nothing to fear.

I wouldn't necessarily say that the light side leads to an afterlife like state more than any other. The nightsisters drew upon the dark side and their malevolent spirits continued on after death. I don't think there's anything overtly unique to their connection with the force, they just viewed it and in turn used it differently than the Sith or the Jedi. The Jedi, while a great source about how the force works, are not necessarily infallible in their views on every aspect of the force or even its true nature. It's all about perspective. The Sith and the Nightsisters view it very differently. Just because the Jedi are the good guys doesn't mean they can't be mistaken. It's actually fairly similar to how Christians and Muslims deny that they worship the same deity even though both religions come from the same source.

Edited December 25, 2016 by ghatt

[AnomalousAuthor 506]

But, is Yoda a reliable source on this subject given his biases about the force and its nature?

The Jedi believe that the dark side is a perversion of the force, that doesn't necessarily make it true. Their stance would obviously lead a Jedi to believe that a dark sider cannot become a force ghost, only an illusion. Although the concept of eternal life through the force is a bit antithetical to Jedi dogma as well.

The latest episode of rebels backs this up pretty well.

Whether or not Yoda is considered a reliable source this is the position that the people who make Star Wars has taken. It's not so much an issue of this being just what characters say but also what the producers who make Star Wars say too. So in the official canon only Jedi can become Force spirits. Sith are just manifestations of the Dark side itself. Until such time as the people who make Star Wars deem otherwise, that's how it works.

Now if you want to run it differently for your games that's fine. But the official stance is only Jedi can become Force spirits.

I think that's somewhat debatable, actually. In the art for the force awakens book there is concept art for an Anakin/Vader force ghost that was originally supposed to be counciling Kylo Ren in the scene with Vaders helmet. It alludes to Anakin's ghost as having two distinct aspects, light and dark. It's just concept art that's been mocked up for some initial script ideas but it shows that those in the know haven't necessarily made the same distinction as the Jedi themselves. They've contradicted themselves with Rebels as well (mentioned several times already). Edited December 25, 2016 by ghatt

[Kael 1,865]

 

 

 Just because the Jedi are the good guys doesn't mean they can't be mistaken. It's actually fairly similar to how Christians and Muslims deny that they worship the same deity even though both religions come from the same source. 

 

But it's not that the Jedi are mistaken, it's that the source material says this is how it is. This isn't a Jedi vs Sith/Night Sisters issue. It's a Markers of Stars vs What the Fans want to see issue. The people who make Star Wars have said that this is how the Force works and how the afterlife works. It doesn't work this way because the Jedi say it is so but because LFG says it. 

 

Now could the Jedi be mistaken? Sure, in the context of how an RPG works they could be mistaken and it can be run anyway. However according to the source material they are not mistaken. 

 

 

 

I think that's somewhat up to debate, actually. In the art for the force awakens book there is concept art for an Anakin/Vader force ghost that was originally supposed to be counciling Kylo Ren in the scene with Vaders helmet. It alludes to Anakin's ghost as having two distinct aspects, light and dark. It's just concept art that's been mocked up for some initial script ideas but it shows that those in the know haven't necessarily made the same distinction as the Jedi themselves. They've contradicted themselves with Rebels as well (mentioned several times already). 

 

Concept art does not change anything until such time as it moves beyond concept. They toss around a lot of story ideas. None of which have any real bearing on the universe so long as they just remain concepts. 

[AnomalousAuthor 506]

Just because the Jedi are the good guys doesn't mean they can't be mistaken. It's actually fairly similar to how Christians and Muslims deny that they worship the same deity even though both religions come from the same source.

But it's not that the Jedi are mistaken, it's that the source material says this is how it is. This isn't a Jedi vs Sith/Night Sisters issue. It's a Markers of Stars vs What the Fans want to see issue. The people who make Star Wars have said that this is how the Force works and how the afterlife works. It doesn't work this way because the Jedi say it is so but because LFG says it.

Now could the Jedi be mistaken? Sure, in the context of how an RPG works they could be mistaken and it can be run anyway. However according to the source material they are not mistaken.

I think that's somewhat up to debate, actually. In the art for the force awakens book there is concept art for an Anakin/Vader force ghost that was originally supposed to be counciling Kylo Ren in the scene with Vaders helmet. It alludes to Anakin's ghost as having two distinct aspects, light and dark. It's just concept art that's been mocked up for some initial script ideas but it shows that those in the know haven't necessarily made the same distinction as the Jedi themselves. They've contradicted themselves with Rebels as well (mentioned several times already).

Concept art does not change anything until such time as it moves beyond concept. They toss around a lot of story ideas. None of which have any real bearing on the universe so long as they just remain concepts.

You're correct, concept art is just that, but the source you're referencing simply presents the viewpoints of the Jedi and beings that share their viewpoint. The Clone Wars actually presented a world in which the force was presented as three beings, a father, a daughter, and a son. The daughter represented the light, the son the dark, with the father a balance in between. Neither the Sith or the Jedi follow the force as it naturally exists and thus their views are biased towards one side of the spectrum. I enjoy philosophical debates so I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but the source doesn't necessarily support the stance of the creators of Star Wars in every instance. Edited December 25, 2016 by ghatt

[Decorus 672]

Last Star Wars Rebels with Maul had Dark Side intelligent Force Ghosts capable of possesing people. They were tied to an Altar, but they did exist. So its entirely possible and Canon for a dark side Ghost to exist.

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

But, is Yoda a reliable source on this subject given his biases about the force and its nature?

The Jedi believe that the dark side is a perversion of the force, that doesn't necessarily make it true. Their stance would obviously lead a Jedi to believe that a dark sider cannot become a force ghost, only an illusion. Although the concept of eternal life through the force is a bit antithetical to Jedi dogma as well.

The latest episode of rebels backs this up pretty well.

But, is Yoda a reliable source on this subject given his biases about the force and its nature?

The Jedi believe that the dark side is a perversion of the force, that doesn't necessarily make it true. Their stance would obviously lead a Jedi to believe that a dark sider cannot become a force ghost, only an illusion. Although the concept of eternal life through the force is a bit antithetical to Jedi dogma as well.

The latest episode of rebels backs this up pretty well.

 

Whether or not Yoda is considered a reliable source this is the position that the people who make Star Wars has taken. It's not so much an issue of this being just what characters say but also what the producers who make Star Wars say too. So in the official canon only Jedi can become Force spirits. Sith are just manifestations of the Dark side itself. Until such time as the people who make Star Wars deem otherwise, that's how it works.

 

Now if you want to run it differently for your games that's fine. But the official stance is only Jedi can become Force spirits.

 

Whether or not Yoda is considered a reliable source this is the position that the people who make Star Wars has taken. It's not so much an issue of this being just what characters say but also what the producers who make Star Wars say too. So in the official canon only Jedi can become Force spirits. Sith are just manifestations of the Dark side itself. Until such time as the people who make Star Wars deem otherwise, that's how it works.

 

Now if you want to run it differently for your games that's fine. But the official stance is only Jedi can become Force spirits.

The same guys who gave the nightsister witches and undead army to fight against the CIS attacking their home on Dathomir in the exact same series. ;-)

And indeed, the phantoms on Korriban were meant as phantoms, impressions of the real thing, but not spirit of the originals. Just spectres of the past. Is this important somehow? Only the jedi tradition gets force ghosts. The sith can still create phantoms, as we have seen in Yoda's journey. And the nightsisters did transcendent matter with their abilities long before this rebels episode as well. They created weapons out of thin air and Talzin seemed to have been able to teleport as well in some cases or transform herself into incorporeal forms. Her trying to become physical again had been the theme for the whole Talzin + Maul vs Palpatine and Dooku arc.

[Kael 1,865]

 

 

You're correct, concept art is just that, but the source you're referencing simply presents the viewpoints of the Jedi and beings that share their viewpoint. 

 

You're still not getting what I'm saying, the source is speaking on the behalf of LFG's position on the issue. This isn't an in character source but an out of character position that they took on the matter. 

 

 

 

 I enjoy philosophical debates so I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but the source doesn't necessarily support the stance of the creators of Star Wars in every instance. 

 

This isn't a philosophical debate. The creators who work on Star Wars have taken the stance and as such I'm not discussing what Yoda talks about I'm discussing what people like Dave Filoni and LFG have said is true. 

 

 

 

Last Star Wars Rebels with Maul had Dark Side intelligent Force Ghosts capable of possesing people. They were tied to an Altar, but they did exist. So its entirely possible and Canon for a dark side Ghost to exist.

 

Those are no different than other dark side manfiestations that we've seen. They aren't the same as Force ghost that we see in the form of Obi Wan and Yoda. 

 

 

 

The same guys who gave the nightsister witches and undead army to fight against the CIS attacking their home on Dathomir in the exact same series. ;-)

 

That just lets us know that Red Harvest and Death Troopers could be real. 

Edited December 25, 2016 by Kael

[AnomalousAuthor 506]

 

 

You're correct, concept art is just that, but the source you're referencing simply presents the viewpoints of the Jedi and beings that share their viewpoint. 

 

You're still not getting what I'm saying, the source is speaking on the behalf of LFG's position on the issue. This isn't an in character source but an out of character position that they took on the matter. 

 

 

 

 I enjoy philosophical debates so I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but the source doesn't necessarily support the stance of the creators of Star Wars in every instance. 

 

This isn't a philosophical debate. The creators who work on Star Wars have taken the stance and as such I'm not discussing what Yoda talks about I'm discussing what people like Dave Filoni and LFG have said is true. 

 

 

 

Last Star Wars Rebels with Maul had Dark Side intelligent Force Ghosts capable of possesing people. They were tied to an Altar, but they did exist. So its entirely possible and Canon for a dark side Ghost to exist.

 

Those are no different than other dark side manfiestations that we've seen. They aren't the same as Force ghost that we see in the form of Obi Wan and Yoda. 

 

 

 

The same guys who gave the nightsister witches and undead army to fight against the CIS attacking their home on Dathomir in the exact same series. ;-)

 

That just lets us know that Red Harvest and Death Troopers could be real.

The only things that are canon are things that occur within the source itself. Interviews are great and all, but they're no more canonical than concept art. Producers can say all they want, but if the source doesn't reflect it then it's hardly canonical.

[Kael 1,865]

 

 

The only things that are canon are things that occur within the source itself. Interviews are great and all, but they're no more canonical than concept art. Producers can say all they want, but if the source doesn't reflect it then it's hardly canonical. 

 

It is canonical when they take it beyond concept and make it reality in the Star Wars universe by depicting it that way. I'm not discussing things producers say and don't do. I'm discussing things they say ...... and then end up creating an episode of Clone Wars to back up what they said. 

[AnomalousAuthor 506]

 

 

The only things that are canon are things that occur within the source itself. Interviews are great and all, but they're no more canonical than concept art. Producers can say all they want, but if the source doesn't reflect it then it's hardly canonical. 

 

It is canonical when they take it beyond concept and make it reality in the Star Wars universe by depicting it that way. I'm not discussing things producers say and don't do. I'm discussing things they say ...... and then end up creating an episode of Clone Wars to back up what they said.

Yes, with unreliable sources and multiple contradictions. Literature is meant to be interpreted. My interpretation is that their sources are unreliable and they've contradicted those sources many times.

[Kael 1,865]

 

 

 

 

The only things that are canon are things that occur within the source itself. Interviews are great and all, but they're no more canonical than concept art. Producers can say all they want, but if the source doesn't reflect it then it's hardly canonical. 

 

It is canonical when they take it beyond concept and make it reality in the Star Wars universe by depicting it that way. I'm not discussing things producers say and don't do. I'm discussing things they say ...... and then end up creating an episode of Clone Wars to back up what they said.

Yes, with unreliable sources and multiple contradictions. Literature is meant to be interpreted. My interpretation is that their sources are unreliable and they've contradicted those sources many times.

 

 

If the author of the work says it's true then it's true. It's just like Midichlorines. They're real because the author said they are real. And the creators are not an unreliable source. Just because they use Yoda as their in world mouth piece does not make the actual source (the show's creators) any less reliable.

 

 

You are, of course, free to interpret things as you wish and play it however you want in your games. But if the people who make the the piece says it true then their words bear more weight than however you wish to interpret it. Something doesn't stop being true of the setting because you chose to think otherwise. Not in the face of what the authors deem as the truth is.  

[AnomalousAuthor 506]

I just interpret it as they present it. If they present it badly with obvious contradictions that's on them.

[Decorus 672]

Well we have a Rebels episode with talking reasoning dark side ghosts that were no different then Yoda or Obi Wan which means yes Dark Side can go all force ghosty just like Light side with different methods.

[Kael 1,865]

I just interpret it as they present it. If they present it badly with obvious contradictions that's on them.

 

It still doesn't make their statements that it is only possible for Lightsiders any less true. Just because you feel the presentation is bad doesn't change the reality. 

 

 

 

 

Well we have a Rebels episode with talking reasoning dark side ghosts that were no different then Yoda or Obi Wan which means yes Dark Side can go all force ghosty just like Light side with different methods.

 

Bane was pretty talky too and he was deemed to be not a Force ghost. So I imagine that being able to talk and reason is not the defining trait for being a Force ghost. They can be manifestations of the dark side and still come off as reasonable. 

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

Well we have a Rebels episode with talking reasoning dark side ghosts that were no different then Yoda or Obi Wan which means yes Dark Side can go all force ghosty just like Light side with different methods.

 

In a universe full of droids capable of talking and reasoning, you can't assume that these traits indicate the presence of a spiritual/organic being, and not just some limited remnant of a mind or an outright illusion.

[Decorus 672]

Because remnant and illusions can fully use light saber styles and force powers right?

They can also think talk and as a double bonus possess people for fun right?

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

Sure, why not. Clearly Force illusions can interact with the physical world - they're visible, after all.

[Vondy 1,460]

I just interpret it as they present it. If they present it badly with obvious contradictions that's on them.

 

Ambiguity or multiple potential interpretations of a phenomena isn't necessarily "bad presentation." We know what the characters believe to be true based on what they say and do. The character's perceptions and interpretations may or may not be accurate. The same is true of their motives. Look at Obi-Wan Kenobi. Is he a reliable primary source? Most of would agree Kenobi dissembles with the best of them. Julius Caesar and Albert Speers are his peers!

 

This is true of many canons, but is especially prominent in Star Trek and Star Wars. What the Jedi tell us about the Force is their ancient religion's systematic dogmatic orthodoxy about it. What Spock says about Romulan technology during the Earth-Romulan war is what he knew of history. Those don't introduce "continuity errors." Those introduce flawed narrators with incomplete or inaccurate knowledge. That just requires a more nuanced interpretive approach on our part.That's not to say their aren't contradictions or canon-cluster-ups of Lucasian proportion. Those certainly do exist. Those are not, however, introduced by characters who exposition is flawed narration.

 

Force ghosts? We know some sensitives have perceived them. Are they actual ghosts? Are they vision-quest style hallucinations? Are they pseudo-prophetic apprehensions of the departed person's essence now eternal in the Force? All we know is what we see on screen (left for us to interpret), and what characters who see them say they believe about it (if anything). We are left with interpretation. Are those interpretations contradictory? Sometimes. That just means 1) character's perceptions vary, 2) canon has not settled the matter definitively, and therefore 3) we have room to maneuver. 

[Kael 1,865]

Because remnant and illusions can fully use light saber styles and force powers right?

They can also think talk and as a double bonus possess people for fun right?

 

Well illusions can do whatever they want, they're illusions. And as I stated .... manifestations of hte dark side can in fact talk. Bane did. Bane wasn't deemed a Force ghost but a dark side spectre, a manifestation of the darkside. Yet it had a personality, and presence, and even knew a thing or two. So what we see in Rebels is already covered by what we've seen in the past from the darkside and doesn't mark them as Force ghost. 

 

Honestly is it that hard to believe that the darkside of the Force can't manifest in ways that allow it to use lightsabre combat, and Force powers when we've seen it do so much more already? 

 

Besides ..... we've never seen Force ghost possess people. So if we're adding in the possession bit we've clearly moved beyond Force ghost anyway. 

[CapnNemo 10]

Well it's been updated to At the Printer. Only a few months till we should get it in our hands

[LordUrban 62]

Back in The old EU dark side force users could bind their spirits to an object or place. Maybe the "ghosts" in the book are in the same vein. Also I hope there is a force power that lets you shapeshift like that witch in Battle for Endor.

[bull30548 124]

In Dark Forces Jedi Academy video game we see an example of a dark side spirit possessing an individual.  Now if you want interpretations remember that there is the interpretation that the Force is completely ambiguous.  For the Force there is no light or dark side those come from the individual and how they use the Force.  Now another interpretation could be Qui-Gon's interpretation of the final line of the Jedi Code "There is no Death there is the Force." His interpretation is that when a Jedi dies he becomes a part of the living Force and in doing so may through sheer will come back and influence or inform those still alive.  Now if you look at the Sith Code their final line is "The Force shall free me.".  Now one could argue that this is through just manipulating in the physical but there could of been those who interpret it into death as well.  So I think Force Ghost is just based on the character interpretation.

[Jedi Ronin 1,588]

I think the latest Rebels episode does keep to the canon that only those taught the path introduced by the light side "priestesses" who taught Qui-gon and Yoda can retain their distinct identities after death.

The Nightsister spirits didn't seem all that intelligent and while capable of possession they mostly turned the possessed into simple tools.  They seemed more like ghosts in the classic sense - a haunting presence dominated by strong emotions and evil intent.  Whereas Jedi that have transcended death can have a chat with you (and try to explain why they totally didn't lie to you) and (so far!) Jedi spirits seem to unattached to a place or object (Obi-wan talks to Luke while he's piloting his X-wing, on Dagobah and Hoth and appears on Endor).

 

But as the Clone Wars and Rebels show (as well as the canon comics) things that are canon can be used or "updated" in unexpected ways and other creators are free to nibble at the edges of "canon".

 

Just like Lucas was making a lot of stuff up as he went along and tried to some extent to make it all cohesive after the fact there's a lot of head-scratching stuff in there - we've now got a lot more people creating Star Wars stories so inconsistencies or seeming inconsistencies are going to crop up even more.  It's all part of the fun of Star Wars.

[Damore 51]

Wow, 2 previews in a couple of weeks, and the book just got to the printers.  I hope the book it farther along because I'm really looking forward to it.

[fist 27]

Agreed Damore, looking forward to it, but FFG history of taking forever to release products after they have been announced... I'm just hoping its in my hands by 2020