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MorbidDon

Is "Immunity - Heat" proof vs. Fire from Flamers?

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I only ask because it gives a +10 bonus (I'm thinking to AGL Test <aka No BS Test / foes makes a AGL Test to avoid being hit> + or to the WP and AGL after one is on fire)

BTW thats +10% bonus to three different types of tests...

 

AGL (aka the actual attack)

WP (Once on fire have to have the will to resist the pain and snuff it out)

AGL (rolling around to put out the flames of justice LOL)

 

That's Three Tests for FIRE...

 

What's the answer - I don't want to "jerk" my player but at the same time I don't want to break the game

Edited by MorbidDon

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I presume he is referring to Resistance: Heat. I'm only aware of a few traits and the Jaded talent that grant outright immunity to something.

 

As for the original question, I would say the bonus from Resistance: Heat would only apply to the WP and the second AG test. The first AG test is a result of the combatant with the flamer not needing to make a BS test so I would rule that Resistance: Heat would not give you a bonus to avoiding being hit by a flamer. All of the tests after being hit (AG to avoid catching on fire, WP to keep a calm mind while on fire, and AG to put out the fire) would gain the +10 bonus in my opinion.

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I presume he is referring to Resistance: Heat. I'm only aware of a few traits and the Jaded talent that grant outright immunity to something.

 

As for the original question, I would say the bonus from Resistance: Heat would only apply to the WP and the second AG test. The first AG test is a result of the combatant with the flamer not needing to make a BS test so I would rule that Resistance: Heat would not give you a bonus to avoiding being hit by a flamer. All of the tests after being hit (AG to avoid catching on fire, WP to keep a calm mind while on fire, and AG to put out the fire) would gain the +10 bonus in my opinion.

 

I agree.I would give the +10 bonus against Catching Fire!, the following Willpower Test, and then the Put It Out! Test. There is no immunity.

 

If it isn't Resistance (Heat) that you're talking about, OP, a source or reference would be appreciated.

Edited by TheWorldSmith

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Sorry for the mix up and I do appreciate the insight > here's the rest of the info

 

Resistance (Talent) PAGE 131
Tier: 1
Prerequisite: None
Specializations: Cold, Fear, Heat, Poisons, Psychic Powers, Radiation, Vacuum, Other
Aptitudes: Toughness, Defence

The Acolyte’s background, experience, training, exposure, or plain stubbornness has developed a resistance within him. Each time he selects this talent, choose one area of resistance. He gains a +10 bonus when making tests to resist effects of this type. The GM can require approval for certain choices, or justification based on the Acolyte’s past.

 

<in my humble opinion "they" made fire too complex - especially for an effect that can be common in the setting>

 

Anyways - what do you guys think?

 

Applied to

 

AGL Test (to hit)

WP Test (to resist pain and maintain focus)
AGL Test (to put oneself off)

 

Three different rolls... ?

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FLAME (Page 145)
Using materials such as promethium and incendiary powders, this
weapon ignites with primordial fire. Whenever a target is struck by
an attack with this quality (even if he suffers no damage), he must
make an Agility test or be set on fire
(see page 243).
If the target of the Flame attack is a vehicle, the pilot must
make the appropriate Operate skill test with a bonus equal to the
vehicle’s Armour value on the facing hit by the Flame attack. If the
pilot fails, the vehicle immediately catches fire (see the On Fire!
sidebar on page 263).

 

FIRE (Page 243)
A character can be set on fire in several different ways (none of
them pleasant). First, weapons with the Flame quality and certain
Energy Critical Effects can set a character on fire. Alternatively, a
character can be ignited by fire in the environment; for this second
case, at the beginning of each round after the first in which the
character is exposed to the same source of flames, he must make a
Challenging (+0) Agility test or catch on fire.

 

Once a character is on fire, he suffers 1d10 Energy damage
(ignoring Armour) and suffers 1 level of Fatigue each round until
the fire is extinguished. If the location is not otherwise specified,
this applies to the Body location.

 

While on fire, he must make a
Challenging (+0) Willpower test at the beginning of each of his
turns
in order to be able to take actions normally; otherwise, he
may only flail in agony and scream, which counts as a Full Action.

 

A character who is on fire can try to extinguish the flames by
dropping Prone and making a Hard (–20) Agility test as a Full
Action.
The GM can make this test easier or harder depending on
environmental conditions and whether the blazing character is able
to receive any help from nearby allies.

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Spray:

Dodge to get out of the AoE.

Agility to not get hit.

 

Flame:

Agility to not catch fire.

[if you catch fire]

WP to be able to act.

Agility to put yourself out.

 

------------

 

Dodge (Evasion: AoE)
Agility (Spray)

Agility (Flame)

Willpower (Caught on Fire!)

Agility (Caught on Fire!)

 

------------

 

I've learnt how Flamers work as gospel. :P Keeps looking like most of my characters use one. I'm not even including above if the Flamer jams on a roll of 9, because that isn't relevant to the target who has Resistance. :)

Edited by TheWorldSmith

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Maybe resistance (heat) should not aid you against a flamer or a burning stake and the like but more about moving in a desert or a burning house or even a overheating enginedeck.

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The wording of the rule may allow for a lot of interpretation. On a hunch I'd even say the writers never actually intended for this Trait to be used against Flame weapons, but only environmental effects. It could be pretty OP otherwise, considering that you might argue it should apply to Las and Plasma weapons too, then.

 

In short, the "Heat" in this context could talk more about the hotness of a desert or a steamy engine room, not the hundreds to thousands of degrees celsius that promethium would create. I'd just think a human being cannot simply become more resistant to fire this easily. It's too much of a sudden change.

 

Anyways - what do you guys think?

 

Applied to

 

AGL Test (to hit)

WP Test (to resist pain and maintain focus)
AGL Test (to put oneself off)

 

If at all (see above), I'd apply it only to the first one -- the Catch Fire AGI Test, in a sense that this enhanced Resistance provides a passive bonus to Evasion, so that if you manage to almost dodge the flames, that tiny bit of Resistance actually manages you to avoid it altogether, by making it harder for the flames to find hold.

 

The Willpower Test is, as you quoted, about pain and focus and has nothing to do with the source of the pain. If you're already burning, it doesn't matter if you have Resistance.

 

The second Agility Test to put the fire out is ... questionable. Again the Action has little to do with the actual Resistance, but one could argue the flames should be easier to put out when your body magically makes it harder for the fire to take and maintain hold.

 

But again, I'd argue this Trait is not intended to be used this way. Consider that when you're burning, it is primarily your clothes that are ablaze, not your body. Even if your character's body has somehow developed a resistance against space napalm and plasma burns, that doesn't actually change anything about the clothing and armour you wear.

 

A more accurate (and balanced) representation could be to re-interpret the +10 Test bonus into a -1 Damage to any Heat-based weaponry the character is struck with, but have zero effect on catching/putting out a fire itself. Unless your Acolyte runs around naked. :P

Edited by Lynata

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I don't see why you would need to place restrictions on how Resistance (Heat) could be applied. I personally run the Resistance talent fairly broadly considering that it's only a +10 and the instances outside of combat where it would be useful are not generally regular occurrences.

 

If you were to restrict Resistance (Heat) to mostly environmental situations, then you would also need to restrict Resistance (Poisons) that it would not work against the Toxic quality. Similarly, Resistance (Psychic Powers) would be ridiculously weak if it did not work in combat. Considering that there are a lot of gear options that help mitigate environmental challenges with even full immunity granted by certain gear, I think the Resistance talent should be applied broadly if there is a logical reason to do so.

 

In the case of fire and flamers, Resistance (Heat) should apply to resisting the effects of the heat ie. catching on fire, keeping a sound mind while on fire, and putting out the fire. Similarly, Resistance (Heat) should also work when any critical effects from energy weapons trigger a Catch on Fire test. However, Resistance (Heat) should do absolutely nothing against regular damage from las, plasma, melta, or any other energy weapons.

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Yeah, I apply Resistance- Heat to avoiding and putting out flames as well.  Nobody in my games has actually taken it yet anyways, so I've not had to worry about PC abuse.  

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i agree with Lynata that its an environmental Heat Immunity

 

Heat an Environmental Effect

Fire an Energy Based Effect

 

On a side note > I cant recall anything in any publishing of BlackLibrary or Gamesworkshop whereby;

 

A. In the Miniatures Game "units or individuals" gain Immunity to Flamers
B. Nothing in any novels or audio tales I've come across either to support that

C. If there was such a thing as Heat Immunity that covers "fire" why wouldn't the AdMech just fire bomb (aka napalm a site) then march troops into the conflagration to clean up any linger forces within the fire storm?

 

As Ive said before > I feel alot of people like to power grab and interpret rules bias in the players favor rather than seeing the long term goal of any PNP RPG is re-playability... Once I'm immune to a damaging base effect (that I might add is a staple of the setting and system > purging by fire and the like) the game then bears a facet of play "I the player have wholly and unequivocally defeated" (listen the game is supposed to be hard & visceral - its why they built-in Fate Points "like extra men/lives" in a video game.

 

If it was soo blatant > I feel they woulda mentioned Flamers are being obsolete against HEAT IMMUNE targets...

 

And if being silly in the vein of this thought > then those with Heat Immunity in 40k lore should go to Stars and live on them for protection for all the other factions... LMFAO

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Here is a "for instance" taken from other games that do detail the difference between Heat and Fire

 

http://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/effects/effect-descriptions/immunity-defense/

IMMUNITY (DEFENSE)
Action: None •
Range: Personal •
Duration: Permanent •
Cost: 1 point per rank
Under the Hood: Immunity
There are characters in comic books flatly immune to certain things. Immunity is intended to provide this option in the game. It’s simpler at some point to say a character is immune to something than it is to bother rolling dice. Immunity also encourages creativity: if you can’t overcome a foe just by hitting him, what then? Encourage players to use tactics, cleverness, power stunts, and victory points to deal with foes immune to their more conventional attacks.
If you find Immunity—especially broad immunities at higher ranks—a problem in your game, feel free to restrict it (perhaps to no more than 10 ranks) or eliminate it altogether, replacing it with Protection and defense bonuses with appropriate power modifiers.
For a degree of immunity to Damage, see the Impervious extra in

Modifiers.

 

You are immune to certain effects, automatically succeeding on any resistance check against them. You assign ranks of Immunity to various effects to gain immunity to them (with more extensive effects requiring more ranks). These assignments are permanent. Examples include the following:

1 rank: aging, disease, poison, one environmental condition (cold, heat, high pressure, radiation, or vacuum), one type of suffocation (breathe normally underwater or in an alien atmosphere, for example), starvation and thirst, need for sleep, or a rare power descriptor (such as your own powers, a close sibling’s powers, etc.).
2 ranks: critical hits, suffocation effects (no need to breathe at all), or an uncommon power descriptor (such as chemical, gravitic, necromantic, etc.).
5 ranks: alteration effects, sensory
Affliction effects, emotion effects, entrapment (grabbing, snares, or bonds), fatigue effects, interaction skills, or a particular
Damage effect, descriptor (such as bullets, cold, electricity, falling, fire, magic, radiation, sonic, etc.)
10 ranks: a common power descriptor (such as all effects with cold, electricity, fire, radiation, or weather descriptors, for example), life support (includes immunity to disease, poison, all environmental conditions, suffocation, and starvation and thirst).
20 ranks: a very common power descriptor (bludgeoning or energy, for example).
30 ranks: All effects resisted by Fortitude, All effects resisted by Will.
80 ranks: All effects resisted by Toughness (the equivalent of 40 ranks of Impervious Toughness).
 
Moving on D&D defines Environmental HEAT as follows:
(nothing about fire walking or lava swimming > sorry)
Heat Dangers

Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once rendered unconscious through the accumulation of nonlethal damage, the character begins to take lethal damage at the same rate.
 

A character in very hot conditions (above 90° F) must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a -4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour).
 

In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a -4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).|
 

A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued.

These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the heat.
 

Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a -4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell.
 

Boiling water deals 1d6 points of scalding damage, unless the character is fully immersed, in which case it deals 10d6 points of damage per round of exposure.

 

GURPS

 

Resistant is a physical advantage, described in Basic Set, p. 80, and referenced in GURPS Powers, pp. 71, 108, 167 & 169. There is an FAQ entry regarding Immunity to Metabolic Hazards and Temperature Tolerance here.

 

Immune or Immunity is the highest level that the Resistant advantage can be taken at, and so the Resistant advantage is often referred to as Immunity. For example, the Immunity to Metabolic Hazards advantage (above) is actually described under the Resistant entry in Basic Set.

 

GURPS Powers, p. 71, discusses the relation between Resistant and power sources, while on p. 108, Resistant is mentioned as an advantage that can take the Force Field enhancement. On p. 167, it is mentioned in the Defending with Powers section, and in the Resisting Abilities section on p. 169.

 

Powerlisting.wikia.com

 

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Thermal_Resistance

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i agree with Lynata that its an environmental Heat Immunity

 

Heat an Environmental Effect

Fire an Energy Based Effect

 

On a side note > I cant recall anything in any publishing of BlackLibrary or Gamesworkshop whereby;

 

A. In the Miniatures Game "units or individuals" gain Immunity to Flamers

B. Nothing in any novels or audio tales I've come across either to support that

C. If there was such a thing as Heat Immunity that covers "fire" why wouldn't the AdMech just fire bomb (aka napalm a site) then march troops into the conflagration to clean up any linger forces within the fire storm?

 

Maybe not really on topic, but related:

If you have the Machine trait at a high level and a high Toughness bonus you are virtually immune to the damage from the Flame quality. Lets say Machine (5) and TB 5 (not too unusual for an old Magos I would say)

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If there was such a thing as Heat Immunity that covers "fire" why wouldn't the AdMech just fire bomb (aka napalm a site) then march troops into the conflagration to clean up any linger forces within the fire storm?

 

Granted, Resistance just gives you a +10, it doesn't make you invulnerably either way. As such, a risk would remain. ;)

 

I still fail to see why a character's clothes should suddenly acquire whole new properties just because their wearer purchased a Talent, though.

 

If you were to restrict Resistance (Heat) to mostly environmental situations, then you would also need to restrict Resistance (Poisons) that it would not work against the Toxic quality. Similarly, Resistance (Psychic Powers) would be ridiculously weak if it did not work in combat. 

 

How often do your players get attacked with poison weapons and psychic abilities, as opposed to flamethrowers, incendiary grenades, and other fire-based weaponry that tends to be easily accessible to even street-level gangers?

 

And where would this leave Resistance (Cold), if you want all these Talents to be useful in combat?

 

I think both (imho) environmental Resistance Talents (Heat/Cold) are quite useful in spite of being very situational. They can make the difference between your character being reduced to a sweating, panting lump of flesh on a hot desert world or inside a steamy manufactorium, or a stuttering icicle on an arctic world or after vacuum exposure.

 

When an entire adventure takes place on such a locale, that's quite the boon. Of course you wouldn't know that before, which - in addition to its limited application - is what makes it balanced and a nice choice for people who want to express special aptitude as a result of their character's background (Tallarn, Valhallan, ...). Instead of becoming a go-to Talent for every single Acolyte because players dislike their characters getting set ablaze.

 

However, Resistance (Heat) should do absolutely nothing against regular damage from las, plasma, melta, or any other energy weapons.

 

Why not? Plasma, Melta and Las all do heat-based damage, just like Flamers (which are classified as an Energy weapon in this game, too).

Edited by Lynata

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How often do your players get attacked with poison weapons and psychic abilities, as opposed to flamethrowers, incendiary grenades, and other fire-based weaponry that tends to be easily accessible to even street-level gangers?

 

I'll admit it's situational for how often poison and psychic attacks come up in games and it's very often dependent on the type of games that are being run. On that same note though, flamers and other fire-based weaponry can be very situational as well depending on the campaign. Only fire bombs are considered super accessible for gangers considering a flamer is scarce in its availability and harder to acquire than ordinary stub and autoguns.

 

And where would this leave Resistance (Cold), if you want all these Talents to be useful in combat?

 

I can't remember if cryo bombs are present in DH2 or a different line but I've certainly had them pop up from time to time. I've also allowed both players and enemies to re-flavour fairly standard pyromancy psychic powers as cryomancy to expand the available feel of different psychic powers.

 

And before you ask, yes I do allow players to benefit from multiple Resistance talents if it appears reasonable (Resistance [Cold] + [Psychic Powers] for example against cryomancy).

 

My general reasoning as to why I want these talents to be useful in combat is because it appears to be logical and within the spirit of how the talent should function. A +10 bonus that the player has to: a) remember that they have and b) come up with a good reason as to how they could benefit from it in the given situation, is not likely to break the game. It's a nice bonus to have and, as you mentioned, it does grant a bit more flavour for particular characters that could reflect their homeworld or their past experiences.

 

However, Resistance (Heat) should do absolutely nothing against regular damage from las, plasma, melta, or any other energy weapons.

 

Why not? Plasma, Melta and Las all do heat-based damage, just like Flamers (which are classified as an Energy weapon in this game, too).

 

My rationale for not allowing Resistance (Heat) to do anything for other heat-based weaponry like las and plasma is because you very rarely engage in tests to "resist" these kind of effects outside of specific critical damage. I would not allow for Resistance (Heat) to grant a bonus to dodge that melta shot because you aren't resisting the shot but rather avoiding it.

 

Resistance (Heat) would also not work in its current form at resisting damage because no test is required when using a character's innate DR. Reworking the bonus into an innate -1 DR against heat-based attacks changes the nature of the talent in a way that becomes even harder to justify than a +10 to specific tests. If you wanted to get better at mitigating damage from heat-based attacks, upgrade your armour with ceramite plating.

 

Instead of becoming a go-to Talent for every single Acolyte because players dislike their characters getting set ablaze.

 

For a supposed go-to talent, I think you're overstating how useful Resistance (Heat) actually is. Yes it is handy and good to have but to certain characters it may not be worth to cost to pick it up for a measly +10 bonus that, even with my broader interpretation, is still fairly limited in its application. It's certainly not as good as certain other talents such as Step Aside or True Grit that are useful in almost every game I've played or run. Even when compared to other tier 1 talents, it has to stack up against things like Ambidextrous, Iron Jaw, Quick Draw, and Rapid Reload.

 

Heck, considering how few talents and traits are useful against flamers and being on fire, I'm perfectly okay with Resistance (Heat) being a good talent in this narrow set of circumstances.

Edited by Popdart

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Think about this... from the perspective of context

 

No other NPC in the back of the Core Book other than the Deathwatch Space Marine + Grey Knight + Manufactorum worker bear a Resistance (Heat) Talent...

 

Deathwatch Space Marines & Grey Knights are great and all but I think a flamer would do its normal course of work on em

 

Page 297

Deathwatch Space Marine

 

Talents: Adamantium Faith, Ambidextrous, Bulging Biceps,
Deathwatch Training, Hatred (Xenos), Heightened Senses
(Hearing, Sight), Peer (Adeptus Astartes, Inquisition), Quick
Draw, Resistance (Cold, Heat, Poisons), True Grit, Unarmed
Specialist, Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee, Ranged), Weapon
Training (Bolter, Chain)

 

 

Page 299

Grey Knight Space Marine

 

Talents: Adamantium Faith, Bulging Biceps, Hatred (Daemons,
Chaos Space Marines), Heightened Senses (Hearing, Sight), Peer
(Adeptus Astartes, Inquisition), Quick Draw, Resistance (Cold,
Heat, Poisons, Psychic Powers)
, Swift Attack, True Grit, Two-
Weapon Wielder (Melee, Ranged), Unarmed Specialist, Weapon
Training (Bolter, Force)

 

Page 393

manufaCtorum Worker

 

Workers by the billions attend to the
great manufactorums that dominate
Hive Desoleum mid-levels. Here they
produce the hive’s many products, such
as its renowned las-lenses and vox-caster
vacuum tubes, in extreme conditions of
blistering heat
. Punishment is harsh for
those who slacken in their efforts, and most
can look forward only to an early death. Yet
for these workers, it is the only way of life
imaginable. It is will of the Emperor, and
to question is to blaspheme.

 

Talents: Resistance (Heat)

Edited by MorbidDon

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On that same note though Morbid, I would reckon that each of those NPCs probably know a good way to not catch on fire and to keep a level head if they ever were set ablaze. Marines would probably be conditioned to keep calm and to react in a certain way to avoid being set on fire. Even the manufactorum worker could reasonably be expected to attend to factory blazes or mishaps and even know how to minimise their chances of catching on fire.

 

Contextually, I see no reason why Resistance (Heat) could not apply in a more broad way when it comes to flamers and fire in general.

 

Just to be 100% clear, Resistance of any kind should do nothing to mitigate damage or any fatigue that results from a failed test against the source. It is only relevant to resist the "effects" of a certain type, which in the case of Heat and flamers would be the effect of being set on fire (Ag test), the effect of freaking out while on fire (WP test), and the effect of putting the fire out (Ag test).

Edited by Popdart

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Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material in the exothermic chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products.

In physics, heat is energy that spontaneously passes between a system and its surroundings in some way other than through work or the transfer of matter.

 

The process in which the exothermic reaction is occurring creates this intense light of a characteristic color depending on the element combusted,this light what you see with your eyes is called ‘FIRE’ and during this exothermic process there occurs a violent jiggling of all the molecules which bangs with all the surrounding air molecules.This violent jiggling of molecules,which is nothing but Kinetic Energy which one can imagine as a tremendous vibrational energy of the molecules is what one experiences as HEAT…so when you stand near fire you experience this heat and the light you see is fire which is the actually the photonic energy released during the combustion as a result of atomic excitations,its more technically and rightly called as plasma state,a charged state which is FIRE.

 

Combustion vs. Energy

Chemical Reaction vs. Energy Byproduct

Fire Roasting vs. Oven Baked (Mmm)

 

Fire is a chemical reaction—namely combustion.

That is to say, heat is normally a product of a combustion reaction (fire).

 

This would seem that ONE is resistant to the Byproduct (Heat) of a Source (Fire)

 

The only two stats that feature a "resistance" component are Toughness and Willpower; all the subset types of Resistance are tied to those stats (Cold, Fear, Heat, Poisons, Psychic Powers,Radiation, Vacuum, Other)

 

Cold = Toughness

Fear = Willpower

Heat = Toughness
Psychic Powers = Willpower

Radiation = Toughness

Vacuum = Toughness

 

toughness (t)
Toughness measures a character’s health, stamina, and resistance.
Exceptionally Tough characters can shrug off otherwise damaging
weapon hits and better withstand poisonous attacks.

 

WillPoWer (WP)
Willpower measures a character’s mental strength and resilience.
High Willpower allows a character to exert control over a crowd of
near-rioting hab workers or interrogate a captured heretic. It is also
often used when wielding and resisting psychic powers.

 

Resistance

The Acolyte’s background, experience, training, exposure, or plain
stubbornness has developed a resistance within him. Each time he
selects this talent, choose one area of resistance.
He gains a +10
bonus when making tests to resist effects of this type. The GM
can require approval for certain choices, or justification based on
the Acolyte’s past.

 

Note: The word "resist" is never used in the rules below unlike other facets of the game...

- he must make an Agility test or be set on fire

- he must make a Challenging (+0) Agility test or catch on fire

- he must make a Challenging (+0) Willpower test

- dropping Prone and making a Hard (–20) Agility test
 

FLAME (Page 145)
Using materials such as promethium and incendiary powders, this
weapon ignites with primordial fire. Whenever a target is struck by
an attack with this quality (even if he suffers no damage), he must
make an Agility test or be set on fire (see page 243).
If the target of the Flame attack is a vehicle, the pilot must
make the appropriate Operate skill test with a bonus equal to the
vehicle’s Armour value on the facing hit by the Flame attack. If the
pilot fails, the vehicle immediately catches fire (see the On Fire!
sidebar on page 263).

 

FIRE (Page 243)
A character can be set on fire in several different ways (none of
them pleasant). First, weapons with the Flame quality and certain
Energy Critical Effects can set a character on fire. Alternatively, a
character can be ignited by fire in the environment; for this second
case, at the beginning of each round after the first in which the
character is exposed to the same source of flames, he must make a
Challenging (+0) Agility test or catch on fire.

 

Once a character is on fire, he suffers 1d10 Energy damage
(ignoring Armour) and suffers 1 level of Fatigue each round until
the fire is extinguished. If the location is not otherwise specified,
this applies to the Body location.

 

While on fire, he must make a
Challenging (+0) Willpower test at the beginning of each of his
turns in order to be able to take actions normally; otherwise, he
may only flail in agony and scream, which counts as a Full Action.

 

A character who is on fire can try to extinguish the flames by
dropping Prone and making a Hard (–20) Agility test as a Full
Action. The GM can make this test easier or harder depending on
environmental conditions and whether the blazing character is able
to receive any help from nearby allies.

Edited by MorbidDon

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Resistance (Heat) would also not work in its current form at resisting damage because no test is required when using a character's innate DR. Reworking the bonus into an innate -1 DR against heat-based attacks changes the nature of the talent in a way that becomes even harder to justify than a +10 to specific tests. If you wanted to get better at mitigating damage from heat-based attacks, upgrade your armour with ceramite plating.

 

That just sounds inconsistent to me. I would argue that if a character has a tangible resistance against heat-based weapons, it should apply to all of them and not just one, and it'd be the responsibility of the player arguing for such an interpretation of the rules to make it work in a consistent manner.

 

Also, I could just as well say that if you want to get better at avoiding to get set aflame, invest in fireproof armour. Ask yourself just what is actually burning when an armoured, clothed character gets doused in flames.

 

We can agree to disagree on the balancing of Resistance Talents, or how we'd interpret these rules, but I will never accept the sudden disappearance of otherwise flammable equipment just so a character gets to use a supposed innate flame resistance to avoid catching fire.

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That just sounds inconsistent to me. I would argue that if a character has a tangible resistance against heat-based weapons, it should apply to all of them and not just one, and it'd be the responsibility of the player arguing for such an interpretation of the rules to make it work in a consistent manner.

 

Also, I could just as well say that if you want to get better at avoiding to get set aflame, invest in fireproof armour. Ask yourself just what is actually burning when an armoured, clothed character gets doused in flames.

 

We can agree to disagree on the balancing of Resistance Talents, or how we'd interpret these rules, but I will never accept the sudden disappearance of otherwise flammable equipment just so a character gets to use a supposed innate flame resistance to avoid catching fire.

 

I think that's the core of this discussion. I view the Resistance talents as being an innate boon that the character is able to utilise in certain situations and it is my view that Resistance (Heat) would apply to tests to resist the effects of being on fire, excluding reducing damage which is already covered by regular DR. I don't believe that it is inconsistent to only grant the bonus to tests rather than as a blanket +10 to effective Toughness when faced by these situations. After all, DR is already well covered by the standard rules for armour and Toughness and I don't think granting Resistance as additional DR for "innate flame resistance" as you put it would go down well will many people.

 

We've already talked about Resistance (Psychic Powers) and (Poison) but consider what you've suggested in that context. If the designers intended to allow people to mitigate the damage of a psychic attack or a tox round by having the corresponding Resistance, I would have thought they would have stated that clearly. The fact that they didn't implies that it's not meant to literally make you tougher or more resilient against heat-based or poison-based damage or whatever other Resistance is relevant. The name Resistance is probably a misnomer for how it should probably function because Resistance (Cold) doesn't mean anything if you fail a Toughness test and suffer damage because you wandered into a blizzard. It merely means you have a better chance of not suffering the effects of being cold.

 

Regarding your point on flammable clothing and armour, the rules as they stand don't provide any benefits or penalties depending on what type of clothing you're wearing while on fire. Heck, a completely naked person has the same chance of resisting fire (whether reducing damage, putting out the fire, or whatever) as someone in power armour. The only people who are likely to not give a crap about fire damage are machines or people wearing fire-resistant armour. I almost certainly have overlooked something in the books but I don't recall anything that grants total immunity to fire and the effects of being on fire. Under RAW, even a servitor has to flail about when they're on fire as they only gain their armour as bonus DR vs fire damage and they gain no bonuses to either avoiding catching on fire, keeping their cogitator on the right track while on fire, or putting out the fire.

 

Note: The word "resist" is never used in the rules below unlike other facets of the game...

- he must make an Agility test or be set on fire

- he must make a Challenging (+0) Agility test or catch on fire

- he must make a Challenging (+0) Willpower test

- dropping Prone and making a Hard (–20) Agility test

 

I don't have my book with me right now to read up on how Fear, Psychic Powers, and general environmental effects are worded but I can't recall if the word "resist" ever came up as a common key word. For instance, I was under the impression that Fear was along the lines of "make a Fear test or suffer the effects of Shock". I admit that I'm probably wrong here so I will head back to the book on this one to double-check.

 

On a separate point, would it be simpler and probably more agreeable to everyone if a Resistance (Fire) talent was used instead? That would seem to be more clear cut in how it could be interpreted rather than everyone getting caught up in whether Heat is applicable to Fire and what not.

Edited by Popdart

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I think that's the core of this discussion. I view the Resistance talents as being an innate boon that the character is able to utilise in certain situations and it is my view that Resistance (Heat) would apply to tests to resist the effects of being on fire, excluding reducing damage which is already covered by regular DR. I don't believe that it is inconsistent to only grant the bonus to tests rather than as a blanket +10 to effective Toughness when faced by these situations. After all, DR is already well covered by the standard rules for armour and Toughness and I don't think granting Resistance as additional DR for "innate flame resistance" as you put it would go down well will many people.

 

We've already talked about Resistance (Psychic Powers) and (Poison) but consider what you've suggested in that context. If the designers intended to allow people to mitigate the damage of a psychic attack or a tox round by having the corresponding Resistance, I would have thought they would have stated that clearly. The fact that they didn't implies that it's not meant to literally make you tougher or more resilient against heat-based or poison-based damage or whatever other Resistance is relevant. The name Resistance is probably a misnomer for how it should probably function because Resistance (Cold) doesn't mean anything if you fail a Toughness test and suffer damage because you wandered into a blizzard. It merely means you have a better chance of not suffering the effects of being cold.

 

DR is indeed already covered by standard armour and Toughness, but there are Traits (such as Machine) that confer additional protection against certain elements, in this case "resistance against damage from Fire".

 

Personally, I think a -1 damage to specific damage effects would be a much better representation of an innate resistance against the corresponding element, simply because it manages to show said resistance in a manner that is useful to the player, whilst keeping its influence on combat comparatively low. A +10 to Tests against getting set on fire (and thus avoiding the damage completely), however, is quite huge, especially when considering that this will affect multiple rounds.

 

I also found a thing:

 

From the DW and OW Tyranid Trait: "Tyranids are immune to all of the effects of the following: Pinning, mind-affecting Psychic Powers, Warp-based powers that affect the mind, cold, heat, diseases, and poisons, including the effects of weapons with the Toxic Quality."

 

Note how immunity against "effects of weapons with the Toxic Quality" is called out in addition to immunity (Poisons), rather than being taken for granted. I feel that this reinforces my belief that the writers did not consider resistance against environmental effects and resistance against weapon effects to be synonymous.

 

Furthermore, if it were otherwise and Heat would work as you suggest (as in: including weapon effects), this would make Tyranids immune against flamethrowers.

 

Regarding your point on flammable clothing and armour, the rules as they stand don't provide any benefits or penalties depending on what type of clothing you're wearing while on fire. Heck, a completely naked person has the same chance of resisting fire (whether reducing damage, putting out the fire, or whatever) as someone in power armour.

 

Yes, but common sense / realism applies: The character gets douses in burning promethium. If they are naked, fine, I could see a Resistance that is part of the character's naked body to provide some sort of effect (although I'd argue it would at best be a +1 rather than +10%, unless we're talking mutations). If they wear clothing or armour, however, it means that their equipment will be on fire. How is an innate property of their body supposed to help with that?

 

On a sidenote: Arguably, the game cannot model every little detail, so a certain level of abstraction should be expected. It wouldn't be too hard to come up with modifiers that make it easier or harder for people to be set ablaze, though. Actually, wasn't there an armour modification for this already?

 

On a separate point, would it be simpler and probably more agreeable to everyone if a Resistance (Fire) talent was used instead? That would seem to be more clear cut in how it could be interpreted rather than everyone getting caught up in whether Heat is applicable to Fire and what not.

 

I think it would make sense as a Trait, and after a quick search I'm actually surprised it doesn't exist as one already.

 

A 10%(!) bonus to preventing flame damage is, or so I think for reasons outlined above, a huge thing, and something ordinary people cannot just "learn". I could easily imagine it as a Trait for various creatures and mutants, however, or something that could be achieved by player characters via biomechanical implants (subdermal skin sheets) or in the form of genetical enhancement (flame-retardant sweat)?

 

I suppose if you're dead-set on making it a Talent, you could have it require Resistance (Heat) as a prerequisite, so that at least the character has a bit of a progression until developing this ability.

Edited by Lynata

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I was gonna look for the Tyranid Traits (err Talents today > I made a PDF with all the foes from all the books in one place)

 

I agree Tyranids maybe in immune to high temperatures found within a ship's more industrial sections (boy its 150 degrees in here)

 

Another thing FATIGUE > this is where environmental effects apply

 

You wanana walk through the ship sections that are over 90 in all your gear > make a Fatigue Test / ohh you got Resistance (Heat) - ok add a 10% bonus to your Toughness Test

 

You wanana wade through the 40 degree watery sump through a ship > roll a Toughness Test vs Fatigue / ohh you got Resistance (Cold) - ok add a 10% bonus to your Toughness Test

 

Now for some silliness (dont read beyond this if you cant take a joke)

 

To add - I went through actual effort to illustrate my points > namely that of the mini games - Deathwatch marines and Grey Knights in 40k are not FIRE immune - sorry...

 

Then to top that > dont flamers actually damage vechicles as long as it bypasses the vechile's armor? (if it can do that it can burn people in ceramite suites)

 

To add to this notion of FIRE immunity - ok take those Deathwatch / Grey Knight types take em out of their armor - then have them run through a fiery area and tell me about their "special training" and how they flip bound somersault and otherwise for no other reason are "really good at avoiding catching fire" - aka Fire Ninjas / this would also have to include then Manufactorum Workers - they prolly got a special schola program for just them called VO5 Hot Fire Wrestling?! LMFAO

 

FIN

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