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Sparks Duh

Tokens!

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The only ccgs i've played that didn't require tokens was Overpower and Animeyhem. If a card gave a bonus to the end of the term or end of the game you left it on the board. The only token intensive ccg I've played was Magi Nation: Duel. Your whole economy was tokens.

 

Forgetting the greatest of them all, SWCCG. Your deck was pretty much your life and resources. 

 

 

Great.  Now I'm getting the urge to once again play my ISB Operations deck, or maybe my battle droid deck (they were much more interesting in the game than in the movies).  I'll have to see if anyone in my gaming group is interested in learning the game, if I provide the cards.

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Forgetting the greatest of them all, SWCCG. Your deck was pretty much your life and resources.

 

 

Never played it but I did do a little of the Gundam CCG which had similar mechanics.

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I don't recall early ccgs using tokens out of the bag or at least tokens in the way we usually associate them.

 

 

There were cards that used tokens in Magic: the gathering Alpha edition.

 

Jyhad used big piles of blood tokens.

 

Dixie used tokens to represent damage to units.

 

INWO had money as a resource.

 

I'm not sure what way you usually associate tokens with play, but from my point of view, they've been with us since day one.

 

 

Dixie used just dice. You could use a token or counter to make life easier when your unit was hit but by no means was it necessary or integral. Similar to early magic where I some people would use dice to go through the attack step and mark damage. It was pretty rare but it did help with the concept. It also worked with the idea of the 'stack'.

 

The early 'counter' cards in MtG was limited to four, if I remember (the clockwork beast, something like The Hive, a ghoul/zombie, and a hydra). Counters were not really integral to the game.

 

INWO had cardboard money? but I might be thinking of the original board game. If the ccg version used the same thing than that would work. Jyhad is really the only one I can think of besides INWO where tokens were integral to the game (i.e. something to represent a core feature) in the 1993-1996 years. I usually consider those the early years where many of these games were simply establishing the genre and usually trying to copy MtG. How much of a percentage does these two games represent in the larger market?

 

Middle Earth may have also used a token later on but typically only required dice too.

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As for the posters who keep saying that most games have tokens in them, that's true. 

 

Most games have tokens, but the tokens are for specific deck types. They aren't needed to play the game in general. Requiring to have tokens to play the game and needing them because your deck just happens to hand out tokens are two very different things. 

 

Like I said, I don't mind when opponents use tokens to track things they need to remember... or even have a deck that hands out tokens. I just hate being forced to lug around tokens in order to play the game. I think it's unnecessary and cumbersome. Design the game where tokens aren't required to play and I will be so happy! :)

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Ok... First point: There is a LOT of speculation in your post. Do you have inside knowledge that nobody else has to the game? Because last I heard, there is NOTHING stating anywhere that there will be tokens in the game. Granted, there's a huge probability that there will be, but nobody except design knows anything about the game at this point. 

 

 

The fact that L5R CCG had some mechanisms already in the game (Clout Tokens, Poison tokens, Madness Tokens, F modifier Token, etc)  that could use tokens and the fact that 8 LCGs of FFG uses tokens, the probability of L5R LCG using tokens is very high.

 

As I said, I don't hate and I don't like tokens, but I see the added value of using tokens. When I played, we used dice to help the flow and, honestly, sometime, it was annoying because of the limitation of the usage of the dice. We could have used pen and papers, but at this point, I feel like it's creating useless wastes... So sticking with dice was the best solution for now.

 

When I see the usage of "lug" combined with "Tokens" honestly, that's exageration... I really don't see that being something hard and I'll say that I used to participate in tournament of Warhammer Fantasy Battles (2250 points), so please, if carrying token requires a "great effort", bring something else. I'm using this as a point of comparaison, because carrying a full 2250 points army in WHFB needs 1 big carrying case, if not 2, depending on the army, and this is may be without the dice and some measuring tools.

 

So compared to a deck with a few tokens... that's nothing at all. Specially since I really have an idea of what I'll use to carry tokens without problems: a small fishing case. Why? Because it will have some separations to prevent different kinds of token to mixed up together, making this easy to carry and to place into play.

 

The Warhammer reference is not warranted to this discussion, tho. That's like saying "Tokens are easier than carrying my golf clubs to the course." They are totally different games and to play a miniatures game, you are required to bring... miniatures! When playing a card game, I'm expected to bring a deck of cards!!! Not a bunch of tokens! lol

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I think it's unnecessary and cumbersome

The necessity issue is silly. One could as easily ask why it's necessary for a card game not to use tokens. It is, of course, neither.

They are totally different games and to play a miniatures game, you are required to bring... miniatures!

...and dice. And a measuring implement. And an army list. Etc.

If it's actually a dealbreaker for you, that's too bad. FFG really likes tokens. They are thus far universal in their LCG designs, and it's exeedingly likely they will be required for certain central mechanics.

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I think it's unnecessary and cumbersome

The necessity issue is silly. One could as easily ask why it's necessary for a card game not to use tokens. It is, of course, neither.

They are totally different games and to play a miniatures game, you are required to bring... miniatures!

...and dice. And a measuring implement. And an army list. Etc.

If it's actually a dealbreaker for you, that's too bad. FFG really likes tokens. They are thus far universal in their LCG designs, and it's exeedingly likely they will be required for certain central mechanics.

 

 

Yeah... and I need clubs, balls, and Tees to play a round of golf. Those are just things I need in order to play the game. Bonus for having shoes, gloves, and a golf cart! The miniatures reference doesn't fit when comparing, period. 

I'm glad that all the pro token players arguments boil down to "I love tokens, they will be in the game. There's no real reason we love tokens other than we love tokens and you just have to get used to them being in the game because FFG can't do anything different than what they have already done. If you don't like tokens, you won't like this game. Blah blah blah" Seriously... That's not an argument for liking tokens. 

How is having tokens in card games better than not having them? The only real answer I've gotten was more design freedom. Every other reason makes more sense not having tokens.

I don't like tokens. They're coarse and rough and irritating and they get everywhere!

 

:)

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How is having tokens in card games better than not having them? The only real answer I've gotten was more design freedom.

Why is design freedom insufficient reason?

You haven't offered any "real reason" for not having them. Just personal preferences.

Which is fine, like what you like. (Most) people aren't saying you shouldn't.

You're the one suggesting there is some definition of card game that excludes (I believe) literally every living card game FFG has ever published. So it shouldn't really be surprising when people point out how ridiculous your argument is.

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How is having tokens in card games better than not having them? The only real answer I've gotten was more design freedom.

Why is design freedom insufficient reason?

 

Because it's totally unnecessary for a great card game. You don't need a bunch of tokens in order to design a great card game at all.

 

Give me a game with great mechanics without tokens and it will be FAR superior to a card game that you are required to lug around a bunch of stupid tokens.

 

It seems like nobody can even see a game without tokens anymore. Like all card games require them in order to be a game. They are NOT required to play card games, I promise.

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How is having tokens in card games better than not having them? The only real answer I've gotten was more design freedom.

You're the one suggesting there is some definition of card game that excludes (I believe) literally every living card game FFG has ever published. So it shouldn't really be surprising when people point out how ridiculous your argument is.

 

 

Because I can see the reality of companies not doing the same thing over and over and over again. I can see that some companies like to change things up a little, but nobody else thinks they can. Hell, even FFG proves they can do different things with something as recent as introducing a CCG to their line-up! Is it so hard to imagine they could design a game without tokens? ****!

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snip

The Warhammer reference is not warranted to this discussion, tho. That's like saying "Tokens are easier than carrying my golf clubs to the course." They are totally different games and to play a miniatures game, you are required to bring... miniatures! When playing a card game, I'm expected to bring a deck of cards!!! Not a bunch of tokens! lol

 

 

I didn't use the Warhammer reference has a direct reference, but to display that the term (to lug) that you're using about "bringing token" is very an exageration. Yet you completely fail to understand something as simple as that and you keep using that term. Honestly, you really sound like a spoilled spoiled little child that sees a very small task as if it's the end of the world... Grow up. Heck, most card games has stuffs that you have to bring in and I'm not just talking about CCG or LCG.

 

You want real references now? Fine. I'll take Hold'em Poker as my first example. To have a successful game, you need tokens, and these tokens may have many forms here, it may be chips and it may also be real money, but it's token anyway in order to have a game where someone lose. And there's the dealer token of course. I'll take cribbage as another example, someone has to bring the board and there's only one token per player, which is the pin on the board. And these are simple card games. I could bring more, but with those two, I brought my point that some games needs tokens.

 

Now, since you are totally missed the point of my post, I'll explain it another way.

 

Definition: To Lug: To drag or haul an object laboriously.

 

If bringing a little bag of tokens that probably don't even weight more than a pound is really something laborious for you and that will probably be the same size, if not less, than a tin deckbox. If that's really laborious for you, I really wonder how you're bringing your cards, because when I bring mine to a friends, I usually also bring 3-4 decks with a bunch of cards to improve my deck after some testing. I'm guessing that if you go to a tournament, you ask the kind of person that request that the lunch is supplied because it's really laborious to bring. I'll use your words on that, you're not expected to bring lunch to a card game! Let's use your logic further? Are you the kind of people that travels to other country to do tournaments? If yes, then you shouldn't expect yourself to bring luggage because, you'll only play a card game so you should just have decks!

 

I'll be honest, I twist your sentence to a total extreme exageration but just think about it for a second. You're using a really bad word. You don't like to BRING (and not lug) tokens, fine, but geez, if bringing small pieces of cardboard / pastic / [Name any kind of material for your token] is really a burden, and I really mean if it's really a burden! Geez you sound like a lazy person... I'm pretty sure that if you could play the game without even using cards, you would like that, because, hey, someone could run too close of your deck and hit you when it's outside of the box and every cards fly around. Better only play that game with imagination, less of a burden that way. It's just tokens already... They don't ask to bring a table, 4 chairs and a ouija boardgame (Why a ouija boardgame? Simply because I found that funny to bring in my post! lol), it's only a small bag of tokens... Or, if you're using your head a little and want to save a lot of time, as I've said, a small fishing case where all your tokens are already separated which speed up the game.

 

Geez, get over it or move on. Do something else than whining, try to find the positive side, because the old CCG already wanted to use token, it's nothing new that FFG will bring. Just take the poison token and the Force/Chi bonus token as an example. Sure you can use dice for those, but those dice are tokens, token in the form of a die. It's a token anyway. It could be a piece of paper, but it's still a token To point out that I'm right on that, I'll bring another definition.

 

Definition: Token: Something serving to represent or indicate some fact, event, feeling, etc.

 

So by definition, using a die, a piece of paper, anything just to point out a past event of the game, is a token. I could "twist" the definition to a point of saying that each personality / holding in plays are token of the fact that they are recruted with the gold generated with your deck...

 

On this... I'm done here, because your say that people bring nothing, but you bring even less to your very own topic...

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The point you are missing, is that when you want to join a table for poker, you come empty handed.

 

What we say is when a player wants to join a table to play some LCG, we prefer when we're not supposed to bring anything else than a deck. 

 

I fully agree with Sparks when he says that a CCG or LCG doesn't need tokens to be a good game. Most of the time, when I join my playgroup for our card games evening, I go to our usual venue directly from my job. Considering I leave home every morning with a book to read in public transports, my lunch and a sketchbook, the available space in my backpack is enough for 4 decks.

But because I have to carry tokens around, at least one of my decks needs to stay at home so that I can bring the tokens needed for play.

It's okay, I can live with that. But I would prefer to be able to bring 4 decks to test different ideas, or to avoid mirror match-ups.

Yes, "lugging around" is an exaggeration, but having to bring tokens is a nuisance. Yes, it's an acceptable nuisance, but it stays a nuisance nonetheless.

Stop pretending otherwise. Yes, tokens bring some interesting design possibilities. Yes, they can be pretty and shiny.

But we could do without them and still having great games.

Will we get a token-free L5R LCG? I highly doubt it.

Will L5R be great, with or without tokens? Sure, I'm pretty convinced of it.

Would I rather have a token-free L5R LCG than having to carry a deckbox filled with tokens? Yes. I would. 

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Because it's totally unnecessary for a great card game. You don't need a bunch of tokens in order to design a great card game at all.

 

 

Excluding tokens is totally unnecessary for a great card game. You don't need to restrict design to the cards alone to design a great card game at all.

 

Give me a game with great mechanics without tokens and it will be FAR superior to a card game that you are required to lug around a bunch of stupid tokens.

 

Give me a game with great mechanics without tokens and it will be FAR superior to a card game that excludes tokens because people can't be bothered to tuck a handful of tokens in their deck boxes.

 

It seems like nobody can even see a game without tokens anymore. Like all card games require them in order to be a game. They are NOT required to play card games, I promise.

 

Most people in this thread understand that you can have great card games that use tokens, and great card games that don't. And even great card games that could, but don't always. You are the only one talking about requirements, and what's "necessary."

 

 

Because I can see the reality of companies not doing the same thing over and over and over again. I can see that some companies like to change things up a little, but nobody else thinks they can. Hell, even FFG proves they can do different things with something as recent as introducing a CCG to their line-up! Is it so hard to imagine they could design a game without tokens? ****!

 

Again, no one is saying FFG can't, or even won't. Just that it's not likely, based on various observations about LCGs past and present, as well as FFG games more generally.

 

If the CCG you're talking about is Star Wars Destiny? Along with cards, it's got dice...

 

...and tokens. Because FFG likes tokens. (I don't know how integral those tokens actually are, just that there's a picture of the game with tokens on the board.)

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in any case, it would be nice if (for these events), the TO will supply the tokens instead (if only people didn't have itchy fingers).

Why should they? If you buy the starter box, you'll have all the tokens you need. Why should the TO provide something you already have?

 

Most people in this thread understand that you can have great card games that use tokens, and great card games that don't. And even great card games that could, but don't always.

Yep and myself I prefer ones that have tokens, because they generally have deeper rules with more options than a game without them can manage. But that's just my opinion and is no more right or wrong then anyone elses.

 

Because FFG likes tokens.

Again yep. FFG is actually fairly famous for the amount of components they put into every game. Tokens, special dice, various types of cards, ect... It's part of what sets them apart from other games. People know that when you buy a FFG game you'll need an hour or more to punch out and sort through everything.

So while it's possible that FFG will not have tokens in the L5R LCG, it's unlikely in the extreme and everyone will be better off assuming there will be some and deciding what they want to do based on that. Then if when what's actually in the box and how the game will work is announced then you can rethink things.

Edited by VanorDM

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I fully agree with Sparks when he says that a CCG or LCG doesn't need tokens to be a good game.

 

The "need" thing is what keeps tripping people up, I think. It's not an issue of whether tokens are necessary. Their exclusion is equally unnecessary.

 

Like you say, there are trade offs. But you no more have to "lug" tokens than we would be stuck with a bad game if tokens were excluded. They're both wild exaggerations. It's more fair to say you have to bring (not lug) a handful of tokens, or we'd get a different (not necessarily worse) game if tokens were excluded, respectively.

 

Hypothetically, I wonder if FFG does away with the dual deck design, the space the second deck takes up in a deck box might be filled by the handful of tokens required? Just an idle thought -- going to a single deck, or a main/side deck, seems to be a common speculation.

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Hypothetically, I wonder if FFG does away with the dual deck design, the space the second deck takes up in a deck box might be filled by the handful of tokens required? Just an idle thought -- going to a single deck, or a main/side deck, seems to be a common speculation.

Seems reasonable. Every competitive FFG LCG has a side deck so far.

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Netrunner's just a single deck, unless I'm having a brain fart?

True, but you have to play as Runner and Corp so that's like two decks.

 

 

Guess that's fair, although extending that means Star Wars has four.

 

....and tokens!  :P

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I didn't use the Warhammer reference has a direct reference, but to display that the term (to lug) that you're using about "bringing token" is very an exageration. Yet you completely fail to understand something as simple as that and you keep using that term. Honestly, you really sound like a spoilled spoiled little child that sees a very small task as if it's the end of the world... Grow up. Heck, most card games has stuffs that you have to bring in and I'm not just talking about CCG or LCG.

Yes, but I am very specifically talking about LCGs. Not miniatures, not golfing, not poker, and not ping-pong! None of those other games have anything to do with what I'm talking about.

 

 

You want real references now? Fine. I'll take Hold'em Poker as my first example. To have a successful game, you need tokens, and these tokens may have many forms here, it may be chips and it may also be real money, but it's token anyway in order to have a game where someone lose. And there's the dealer token of course. I'll take cribbage as another example, someone has to bring the board and there's only one token per player, which is the pin on the board. And these are simple card games. I could bring more, but with those two, I brought my point that some games needs tokens.

 

Now, since you are totally missed the point of my post, I'll explain it another way.

 

Definition: To Lug: To drag or haul an object laboriously.

 

If bringing a little bag of tokens that probably don't even weight more than a pound is really something laborious for you and that will probably be the same size, if not less, than a tin deckbox. If that's really laborious for you, I really wonder how you're bringing your cards, because when I bring mine to a friends, I usually also bring 3-4 decks with a bunch of cards to improve my deck after some testing. I'm guessing that if you go to a tournament, you ask the kind of person that request that the lunch is supplied because it's really laborious to bring. I'll use your words on that, you're not expected to bring lunch to a card game! Let's use your logic further? Are you the kind of people that travels to other country to do tournaments? If yes, then you shouldn't expect yourself to bring luggage because, you'll only play a card game so you should just have decks!

Again, not talking about poker. But since you bring it up, I'm not required to bring chips to a poker game. All I'm required to bring is money... The game is designed this way. Golf is designed so that when you show up, you need clubs, balls, and Tees. These are things I know I need to play the game.

CCGs and LCGs can be designed with bringing only a deck and bringing a deck and a bunch of tokens. I prefer to bring only a deck because bringing along tokens is not fun for me. And yes, it is LUGGING around tokens when you are dumping out tokens before the start of each game, sorting through them to find which ones I need during different periods of the game, and then cleaning them up between every match is something and that is very cumbersome and not fun to do for me. 

Seriously??? To answer your question tho... No, I do not bring my lunch to tournaments. And when I travel to tournaments, I do not bring my luggage with me to the tournament. I bring a deck to play. I go out for lunch, usually, because socializing with friends is awesome! I try to experience at least a little of the place I'm visiting.

 

 

 

I'll be honest, I twist your sentence to a total extreme exageration but just think about it for a second. You're using a really bad word. You don't like to BRING (and not lug) tokens, fine, but geez, if bringing small pieces of cardboard / pastic / [Name any kind of material for your token] is really a burden, and I really mean if it's really a burden! Geez you sound like a lazy person... I'm pretty sure that if you could play the game without even using cards, you would like that, because, hey, someone could run too close of your deck and hit you when it's outside of the box and every cards fly around. Better only play that game with imagination, less of a burden that way. It's just tokens already... They don't ask to bring a table, 4 chairs and a ouija boardgame (Why a ouija boardgame? Simply because I found that funny to bring in my post! lol), it's only a small bag of tokens... Or, if you're using your head a little and want to save a lot of time, as I've said, a small fishing case where all your tokens are already separated which speed up the game.

Uhhhhh... Yeah ok. This kind of talk is really dumb. I want to play a card game. I want to build and play my deck of cards. How silly am I?  :rolleyes:

 

 

Geez, get over it or move on. Do something else than whining, try to find the positive side, because the old CCG already wanted to use token, it's nothing new that FFG will bring. Just take the poison token and the Force/Chi bonus token as an example. Sure you can use dice for those, but those dice are tokens, token in the form of a die. It's a token anyway. It could be a piece of paper, but it's still a token To point out that I'm right on that, I'll bring another definition.

 

Definition: Token: Something serving to represent or indicate some fact, event, feeling, etc.

 

So by definition, using a die, a piece of paper, anything just to point out a past event of the game, is a token. I could "twist" the definition to a point of saying that each personality / holding in plays are token of the fact that they are recruted with the gold generated with your deck...

 

Yup and my entire career of playing L5R CCG, I never once brought tokens or dice to a tournament. Because none of my decks required them. I will say this again... I don't care that my opponents use tokens. I just don't like being forced to use them.

 

 

On this... I'm done here, because your say that people bring nothing, but you bring even less to your very own topic...

 

SEE YA!!!

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I think the bottom line here is that nobody cares about token usage except for Sparks (anti-token) and Vanor DM (pro-token) as long as the game is good.

 

TRUTH!!! :D

 

Seriously tho. The game could have a million different tokens with it. If I find the game fun, balanced, and mechanically sound, I will be all over it. 

Edited by Sparks Duh

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Hypothetically, I wonder if FFG does away with the dual deck design, the space the second deck takes up in a deck box might be filled by the handful of tokens required? Just an idle thought -- going to a single deck, or a main/side deck, seems to be a common speculation.

 

 

Well, to be fair, the 2nd deck usually takes up just a little more space, but it all fits in to one deckbox. L5R CCG was 40/40 and the typical single deck games are 60 cards so...

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