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Sparks Duh

Tokens!

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Honour, gold, and maybe -chi or poison.

 

None of those require tokens. Maybe poison??? But that's only for the person playing the poison deck, not for everyone to lug around. lol

 

 

-chi ABSOLUTELY requires tokens.  Back in the day I had a Phoenix Black Scroll deck (I now bow my head in shame at the dishonour of using shadowlands cards  (-7 Honour)) which required piles of -1 Chi tokens that were created, moved and destroyed by spells.  Without tokens it would have been impossible to manage, even with dice.  I eventually made my own tokens.

 

 

Like I said... Bringing those tokens to lug around would have been the responsibility of the player playing that particular deck. Not everyone's responsibility. I don't wanna lug around a bunch of poison/chi tokens just because there may be a chance I will run in to a player that utilizes them. That's ridiculous!

 

I really don't wanna lug around a bunch of tokens for a card game. It isn't practical at tournaments and isn't fun dumping them out and cleaning them up between rounds. It's more than an inconvenience. 

 

Someone mentioned that having tokens in a card game was similar to board games and that they liked that aspect. But in a tournament, it doesn't make sense to sit down, get your board game ready, play one game, then pack it all up and move to another table to play another game and repeat until the tourney is over. 

 

Why do people enjoy doing that? I can understand playing casually, it isn't that big of a deal because you typically play more than one game with each other, but in a tournament setting??? No effin way!! lol

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But in a tournament, it doesn't make sense to sit down, get your board game ready, play one game, then pack it all up and move to another table to play another game and repeat until the tourney is over.

I'm not sure how it works for other games, but for Star Wars you don't play just one game per round. IIRC you play best of 3 and alternate between LS and DS decks.

But regardless, every argument make about tokens are pointless, because FFG will have 3-5 different types of tokens in this game, that's quite frankly just a fact and your opinion about how practical they and the rest simply doesn't matter, because that's a done deal. FFG isn't going to read this thread and suddenly decide not to include tokens because a few people don't like them.

If tokens bother you as much as you say, then you may very well want to pass on this game, because you will have to use them, and you will have to bring them with you. If you show up at a tournament without them that can be grounds to be DQ'ed.

 

Edit: To make it clear, I don't care if someone likes or dislikes tokens, and there something in the tournament rules that allows you to use things like dice if you wish... Provided there isn't confusion about about the dice represents.  

 

But the idea that we should discuss if there will be tokens in this game, is pointless, because they will be part of this game.  FFG quite simply doesn't make games without tokens.  Asking for FFG without them is like asking for a taco at McDonalds.  

Edited by VanorDM

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Honour, gold, and maybe -chi or poison.

 

None of those require tokens. Maybe poison??? But that's only for the person playing the poison deck, not for everyone to lug around. lol

 

 

-chi ABSOLUTELY requires tokens.  Back in the day I had a Phoenix Black Scroll deck (I now bow my head in shame at the dishonour of using shadowlands cards  (-7 Honour)) which required piles of -1 Chi tokens that were created, moved and destroyed by spells.  Without tokens it would have been impossible to manage, even with dice.  I eventually made my own tokens.

 

 

Like I said... Bringing those tokens to lug around would have been the responsibility of the player playing that particular deck. Not everyone's responsibility. I don't wanna lug around a bunch of poison/chi tokens just because there may be a chance I will run in to a player that utilizes them. That's ridiculous!

 

I really don't wanna lug around a bunch of tokens for a card game. It isn't practical at tournaments and isn't fun dumping them out and cleaning them up between rounds. It's more than an inconvenience. 

 

Someone mentioned that having tokens in a card game was similar to board games and that they liked that aspect. But in a tournament, it doesn't make sense to sit down, get your board game ready, play one game, then pack it all up and move to another table to play another game and repeat until the tourney is over. 

 

Why do people enjoy doing that? I can understand playing casually, it isn't that big of a deal because you typically play more than one game with each other, but in a tournament setting??? No effin way!! lol

 

 

Concerning the question I bolded, who said anything about enjoying cleaning up tokens at tournaments?  Two observations:

1.  I don't believe anyone who supported tokens said anything about their ease of set-up or clean-up.  Their approval of tokens was focused on the effects on gameplay.

2.  I don't recall seeing much talk about tournaments at all. 

 

Before asking why people enjoy cleaning up tokens at tournaments, it would be prudent to determine if anyone enjoys cleaning up tokens at tournament, rather than trying to twist everyone's viewpoints into something they're not.

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it would be prudent to determine if anyone enjoys cleaning up tokens at tournament

 

As you point out, I don't think anyone finds that enjoyable.  The question one of cost/benefit...

 

Is what tokens add to the game, enough to make them worth it?  In my experience with Star Wars LCG yes they do, because they can include mechanics that are interesting enough, and with more depth than a simple tap system can manage to make them worth the effort.

 

Everyone is welcome to agree or disagree with that stance, I frankly don't care in the least what other people think about it, because that's completely subjective opinions...  What is not subjective, is FFG's history of including them in every game they've ever made.

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it would be prudent to determine if anyone enjoys cleaning up tokens at tournament

 

As you point out, I don't think anyone finds that enjoyable.  The question one of cost/benefit...

 

Is what tokens add to the game, enough to make them worth it?  In my experience with Star Wars LCG yes they do, because they can include mechanics that are interesting enough, and with more depth than a simple tap system can manage to make them worth the effort.

 

Everyone is welcome to agree or disagree with that stance, I frankly don't care in the least what other people think about it, because that's completely subjective opinions...  What is not subjective, is FFG's history of including them in every game they've ever made.

 

 

I agree.  It is nice to:

1.  have mechanics that can span several turns (either permanent effects or something like, "Add X tokens...remove Y tokens to..."

2.  have multiple mechanics which need to be tracked separately (e.g. having poison and clout and corruption on the same character).  Having distinct tokens makes the job much easier than simply using dice.

 

As for people using the mechanics being responsible for providing them, I don't necessarily disagree.  However, I would point out that the entire topic is about whether or not we like tokens, not whether we think every player should be required to always carry a full set of them.  (Though, since I usually carry at least one deck for each clan anyway, a few tokens hardly makes much difference to me.)

 

I'll also add that personally, I find many of the mechanics which use tokens to be among the most interesting and the most fun mechanics in the game (I loved my Madness deck during Ivory!  It didn't usually perform very well, but it was a lot of fun to play!)

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not whether we think every player should be required to always carry a full set of them.

In X-Wing it's generally accepted that if you have a ship with an Ion weapon, you bring the ion tokens, it's not expected that everyone carry them around on the off chance someone will use them in their list.

 

Likewise I imagine that in the Star Wars LCG, if you have nothing in your list that can give you a shield you don't need to bring shield tokens.  But you are expected to have damage tokens, the Death Star counter, focus tokens, ect... 

 

For L5R there may be tokens for effects you don't have in your deck, in that case I'd assume you wouldn't need to carry them, but there will be universal tokens you will have to have with you, or have some way of tracking.

 

But and here's the trick, if the other person finds your dice confusing they can go to the TO and request that you use something else.  Then it's up to the TO to decide if those alternate methods will be allowed or not.

 

If you use a die to track gold, and then a different die to track damage on each unit, that may work. But if you use one die to track damage, and another to track honor, and a 3rd to track Chi... On the same unit card.  Odds are you'll need to use tokens or some sort.

 

I know that this thread is about why we like tokens, and I've already pointed out why I like them in LCG's... But I also felt it was worth pointing out how this game is going to work, based on every other LCG that FFG makes.

Edited by VanorDM

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Let's talk about dice in LCGs now: https://twitter.com/FFGOP/status/788115335530500096

 

 

I have had issues with dice in the hands of certain players.  Especially, a particular Crab super-draw/Stone-of-Purity deck.  Too many dice to constantly keep track of is a fertile field for fraud.

 

If the table gets bumped, tokens fall over.  Dice change numbers.... 

Edited by Coyote Walks

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But in a tournament, it doesn't make sense to sit down, get your board game ready, play one game, then pack it all up and move to another table to play another game and repeat until the tourney is over.

But regardless, every argument make about tokens are pointless, because FFG will have 3-5 different types of tokens in this game, that's quite frankly just a fact and your opinion about how practical they and the rest simply doesn't matter, because that's a done deal. FFG isn't going to read this thread and suddenly decide not to include tokens because a few people don't like them.

If tokens bother you as much as you say, then you may very well want to pass on this game, because you will have to use them, and you will have to bring them with you. If you show up at a tournament without them that can be grounds to be DQ'ed.

 

But the idea that we should discuss if there will be tokens in this game, is pointless, because they will be part of this game.  FFG quite simply doesn't make games without tokens.  Asking for FFG without them is like asking for a taco at McDonalds.  

 

 

Ok... First point: There is a LOT of speculation in your post. Do you have inside knowledge that nobody else has to the game? Because last I heard, there is NOTHING stating anywhere that there will be tokens in the game. Granted, there's a huge probability that there will be, but nobody except design knows anything about the game at this point. 

Second point: The topic isn't about if there will be tokens in the game. The topic is about if you like tokens or not... and why. I have never liked tokens with card games. I gave many reasons why I do not like them. And it doesn't mean I won't like the game if it does, in fact, come with tokens all over the place. Tokens aren't the end all be all for me to play the game. They are awkward, for sure, but most def not a deal breaker at all. Saying things like 'pass on this game because tokens' is ignorant.

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There was a need for pen and paper in L5R (honor?) and there was a need for tokens (in the form of cards).  

 

Tokens/counters etc are here to stay in FFG's design scheme as they augment the experience.  To be honest, I don't think the gaming community would appreciate a game simple enough not to require tokens.  

 

**Now if I have to have tokens en masse like Star Wars LCG I may be a little miffed.  That is a bit over the top (a simple exhaust and a token if exhausted would have done just right).  

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There was a need for pen and paper in L5R (honor?) and there was a need for tokens (in the form of cards).  

 

Tokens/counters etc are here to stay in FFG's design scheme as they augment the experience.  To be honest, I don't think the gaming community would appreciate a game simple enough not to require tokens.  

 

**Now if I have to have tokens en masse like Star Wars LCG I may be a little miffed.  That is a bit over the top (a simple exhaust and a token if exhausted would have done just right).  

 

I suppose you could use a card, probably face down or an equivalent, as an alternative? Maybe some actions do that after they are used? I'd rather just use a token at that point.

Edited by Kubernes

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Ok... First point: There is a LOT of speculation in your post. Do you have inside knowledge that nobody else has to the game? Because last I heard, there is NOTHING stating anywhere that there will be tokens in the game. Granted, there's a huge probability that there will be, but nobody except design knows anything about the game at this point. 

 

 

The fact that L5R CCG had some mechanisms already in the game (Clout Tokens, Poison tokens, Madness Tokens, F modifier Token, etc)  that could use tokens and the fact that 8 LCGs of FFG uses tokens, the probability of L5R LCG using tokens is very high.

 

As I said, I don't hate and I don't like tokens, but I see the added value of using tokens. When I played, we used dice to help the flow and, honestly, sometime, it was annoying because of the limitation of the usage of the dice. We could have used pen and papers, but at this point, I feel like it's creating useless wastes... So sticking with dice was the best solution for now.

 

When I see the usage of "lug" combined with "Tokens" honestly, that's exageration... I really don't see that being something hard and I'll say that I used to participate in tournament of Warhammer Fantasy Battles (2250 points), so please, if carrying token requires a "great effort", bring something else. I'm using this as a point of comparaison, because carrying a full 2250 points army in WHFB needs 1 big carrying case, if not 2, depending on the army, and this is may be without the dice and some measuring tools.

 

So compared to a deck with a few tokens... that's nothing at all. Specially since I really have an idea of what I'll use to carry tokens without problems: a small fishing case. Why? Because it will have some separations to prevent different kinds of token to mixed up together, making this easy to carry and to place into play.

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I'd much rather not have to bring anything more than my deck(s) (and maybe an honor counter or pen/paper) to game night, but I can get behind the idea of having a few dice or tokens around. As long as there are not too many sorts of tokens.

 

I haven't played Starwars or LotR, but I played DT:R from AEG (which came with 4 sorts of tokens) and I still play FFG's AGoT. I find having to carry 15 power tokens, and around as many gold tokens plus a few extra not a huge burden, but well enough a mild annoyance.

OK, it allows some interesting game mechanics, point taken, but I dislike it. One sort of tokens is fine, more is annoying.

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Do you have inside knowledge that nobody else has to the game?

If you can't see the pattern from every other game that FFG has made, then I guess I do have inside knowledge compared to you.

 

The topic is about if you like tokens or not... and why.

And I've listed my reasons why I like them several times, I'm not sure if you just don't read them or what.

 

Saying things like 'pass on this game because tokens' is ignorant.

No it's not, it's not even remotely ignorant, it's also not what I said, it is however another case of you twisting what other people have said.

 

It is however simply an opinion you're free to ignore or consider as you wish. Because if someone hates tokens enough the negative involved in them may be enough to outweigh any other positive the game offers.  For some people, maybe not many but I'm sure there will be some who find the use of tokens enough to make them pass on this game.

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Do you have inside knowledge that nobody else has to the game?

If you can't see the pattern from every other game that FFG has made, then I guess I do have inside knowledge compared to you.

 

The topic is about if you like tokens or not... and why.

And I've listed my reasons why I like them several times, I'm not sure if you just don't read them or what.

 

Saying things like 'pass on this game because tokens' is ignorant.

No it's not, it's not even remotely ignorant, it's also not what I said, it is however another case of you twisting what other people have said.

 

It is however simply an opinion you're free to ignore or consider as you wish. Because if someone hates tokens enough the negative involved in them may be enough to outweigh any other positive the game offers.  For some people, maybe not many but I'm sure there will be some who find the use of tokens enough to make them pass on this game.

 

 

1 - So in your head, FFG is incapable of doing something different. Ok. I get it now.

 

2 - I do read them. The post I was referring to was only talking about IF FFG will include tokens and you trying to be all 'I KNOW EVERYTHING THAT'S GONNA HAPPEN WITH THIS GAME AND YOU KNOW NOTHING!!!'  :rolleyes:

 

3 - I didn't twist anything. You are being so full of yourself. You said: 'If tokens bother you as much as you say, then you may very well want to pass on this game, because you will have to use them, and you will have to bring them with you. If you show up at a tournament without them that can be grounds to be DQ'ed.'

Edited by Sparks Duh

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1 - So in your head, FFG is incapable of doing something different. Ok. I get it now.

 

 

I think it's just simple pattern recognition.  If Taco Bell announced a new meal offering, would it require "a lot of speculation" to guess that it was some sort of taco or burrito rather than teriyaki stir-fry?

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1 - So in your head, FFG is incapable of doing something different. Ok. I get it now.

 

 

I think it's just simple pattern recognition.  If Taco Bell announced a new meal offering, would it require "a lot of speculation" to guess that it was some sort of taco or burrito rather than teriyaki stir-fry?

 

 

To me, the analogy is more in line with:

If Taco Bell announced a new meal offering, would it require "a lot of speculation" to guess that it was a breakfast menu since a lot of other fast food chains are offering them, too?

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Ok. I get it now.

And your analogy is completely flawed... Assuming a breakfast menu isn't even remotely the same thing as what's going on here, you're trying to compare apples to oranges or in this case waffles to tacos.

You seem to want to believe that following the analogy, if Taco Bell were to announce a new menu, it wouldn't have anything to do with the tex/mex style food they make and that there's a chance they could offer waffles and pancakes, rather than breakfast burritos. 

 

But either way I'm done with it.  This game will have tokens, and if tokens really bug someone they may want to give this game a pass.

 

I'm again not saying they should or will.  Just that it's something for those who dislike them to keep in mind.

Edited by VanorDM

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1 - So in your head, FFG is incapable of doing something different. Ok. I get it now.

 

 

I think it's just simple pattern recognition.  If Taco Bell announced a new meal offering, would it require "a lot of speculation" to guess that it was some sort of taco or burrito rather than teriyaki stir-fry?

 

 

To me, the analogy is more in line with:

If Taco Bell announced a new meal offering, would it require "a lot of speculation" to guess that it was a breakfast menu since a lot of other fast food chains are offering them, too?

 

 

I respectfully disagree.  Your analogy is of a pattern, "Company A will likely do X because Companies B and C do X."  (Pattern 1).

 

My analogy was of a pattern, "Company A will likely do X because Company A has consistently done X in the past."  (Pattern 2).

 

The claim that FFG will likely include tokens in L5R because FFG consistently includes tokens in their games is, in my view, more similar to Pattern 2.

 

(An example for Pattern 1 would be if someone had claimed that FFG will probably include tokens in L5R because Avalon Hill and Rio Grand Games include tokens in some of their games.)

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1 - So in your head, FFG is incapable of doing something different. Ok. I get it now.

 

 

I think it's just simple pattern recognition.  If Taco Bell announced a new meal offering, would it require "a lot of speculation" to guess that it was some sort of taco or burrito rather than teriyaki stir-fry?

 

 

To me, the analogy is more in line with:

If Taco Bell announced a new meal offering, would it require "a lot of speculation" to guess that it was a breakfast menu since a lot of other fast food chains are offering them, too?

 

 

I respectfully disagree.  Your analogy is of a pattern, "Company A will likely do X because Companies B and C do X."  (Pattern 1).

 

My analogy was of a pattern, "Company A will likely do X because Company A has consistently done X in the past."  (Pattern 2).

 

The claim that FFG will likely include tokens in L5R because FFG consistently includes tokens in their games is, in my view, more similar to Pattern 2.

 

(An example for Pattern 1 would be if someone had claimed that FFG will probably include tokens in L5R because Avalon Hill and Rio Grand Games include tokens in some of their games.)

 

 

Touche!

However, wishful thinking on my end is just that... wishful thinking. I don't think anyone has any doubt that FFG will use tokens in L5R.

My curiosity is more of why people like so many tokens in their card games. Hence the thread start. Some people gave reasons like they add more design freedom and such. I can respect that. They do add a little more design freedom to games, but then the games get more like board games instead of actual card games, imo. I have a million (exaggerated) board games, but I only have a couple card games that I enjoy. I want more card games! lol

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Touche!

However, wishful thinking on my end is just that... wishful thinking. I don't think anyone has any doubt that FFG will use tokens in L5R.

My curiosity is more of why people like so many tokens in their card games. Hence the thread start. Some people gave reasons like they add more design freedom and such. I can respect that. They do add a little more design freedom to games, but then the games get more like board games instead of actual card games, imo. I have a million (exaggerated) board games, but I only have a couple card games that I enjoy. I want more card games! lol

 

 

Understandable.  I just know that personally, I have a very, very poor memory, and tokens help me track the state of the game without having to recalculate it every time.  For instance, when I'd go 2nd as Mantis, I'd put a token on my stronghold to represent my once-per-game, 2-gold bonus, and I'd remove the token when I spent those two gold.  That way, both I and my opponent could easily determine if the bonus had been used.

 

I would also point out that technically, the game already used tokens (Masterwork Tokens, Arrow Tokens, Sake Tokens, etc.), though I know several people ignored them and just used dice or something rather than tracking all the tokens.  I would imagine that if you weren't using tokens before, you could probably go on not using them (unless required at tournaments), but I suppose we'll have to wait and see how much FFG changes the game before we can say for sure.

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  I'll add one more, admittedly very trivial, reason I like (or at the very least, don't mind) tokens. They can look nice. 

 

  Now, I typically only have one card game at a time, so maybe for people who play more of these, this isn't a big issue. But FFG usually puts out reasonably nice looking tokens, and then people who really get into it can make or get nicer ones. In old L5R I remember people going around with really fancy Imperial Favors - and that was fun. Ditto for custom honor counters. It's just another small way to personalize your game, if you want. 

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