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Surge usage

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Just to clarify whether I understand surge usage correctly.

 

For example, Runemaster Leoric uses his heroic feat to attack three adjacent monsters.

He rolls 3 wounds and 2 surges.

Then monsters roll their defence dice.

Then Leoric uses his surges in the following way:

 

1) The first monster is a goblin archer. He rolled 3 shields. leoric uses one surge for use Runic Knowledge to get one fatigue and add 2 wounds to the monster. So after surge adding the monster is defeated.

2) The second monster is goblin archer too. He rolled 2 shields. As Leoric spent one surge on first goblin he has only one surge. So he spends the second surge for pierce 2 from his Arcane Bolt. The second monster is defeated.

3) The third monster is another goblin archer. He rolled 2 shields. As Leoric spent all his surges he can not add any surges, and the monster takes one damage and survives.

 

I understand that multiple surges can be spent the same way when attack has multiple targets (for example, "blast").

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I believe that is not correct.  An attack that affects multiple targets is still only one attack, with surges spent a single time but applied to all targets.  So in your above scenario, Leoric would declare the surge usage (+2 damage and +2 pierce) when doing the attack, and then the total results would be applied to each monster after their defense roll.  

I could also be wrong, but I'm fairly certain this was confirmed for me in the past by the big dogs on here.

 

Also, technically all three enemies should roll their defense dice simultaneously when Leoric rolls his attack dice.  Thus, maximum effect of the surges can be figured based on the known defense results.  This can be difficult to do with dice constraints, and would rarely make a big difference, but that's how it should be with RAW.

Edited by tomkat364

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Big dogs, heh. Tomkat is correct. The general order of an attack is:

1- Declare target and weapon (choose target space, choose weapon if applicable.)

>before rolling dice time<

2- Roll dice. (Everyone rolls their dice (atacker and defender- if there are more targets, or other monsters affected but not targeted, they roll, too.) What the attacker rolled (range, damage, surges) are the "attack results". Each defender rolls defense results (shields).

>after rolling dice time<

3- Check range. It is here the attack is determined "miss" or "not a miss". It is possible to spend range increasing surges here IF AND ONLY IF it would change a miss into "not a miss" (for example the range is 5 but you only rolled 3 range, but you rolled a surge and there is "surge+2 range). Damage is not considered here at all.

4- Spend surges. Surges results can be converted into other attack results based on abilities. They are resolved immediately EXCEPT when they are condition based (since they depend on step 5). But blast would occur now if surged, and new defenders would roll defense. Knockback would happen now, etc. At the end of this step there should be a final set of attack results, and each defender will have a set of defense results.

5- Deal damage. Each set of defense results is compared in sequence to the attack results, and conditions are applied and damage is dealt accordingly. "Damage dealt" = hearts - shields. 0 damage dealt is not a miss (that was established in step 3). "Damage suffered"= hearts added to card. Jain can be dealt damage but suffer fatigue. This is important because she'll still get conditions from the attack (like poison). If a defender suffers enough damage, it is defeated now.

>The attack resolves<

Edited by Zaltyre

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To add to Zaltyres answer; When you are establishing range it is only possible to use surges to add range. This literally means that 'surge +x range' are the only surges that can be spent when the attack is still in the 'miss-phase'. So no surges can be spent to recover fatigue or other effects (e.g. some weapons grant movement points on surges). In other words rolling an 'X' and having insufficient range is the same -> all other results are ignored. 

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To add to Zaltyres answer; When you are establishing range it is only possible to use surges to add range. This literally means that 'surge +x range' are the only surges that can be spent when the attack is still in the 'miss-phase'. So no surges can be spent to recover fatigue or other effects (e.g. some weapons grant movement points on surges). In other words rolling an 'X' and having insufficient range is the same -> all other results are ignored. 

 

Blast it!  I had been doing this wrong.  I find it hard to keep straight the differences between Descent rules and Imperial Assault rules. (IA the X is a beneficial defense result, rather than an attack result, and only negates damage/conditions that are dependent on damage).

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The only thing I would also add to the above is cases where the attacker is wielding multiple weapons.  Except for some very rare cases that specify otherwise, you can only use surge abilities stated on the weapon you actually use for your attack.

 

In other words, if you are wielding multiple 1 handed Melee weapons, you need to choose which weapon you are using for your attack, and once that decision is made, you can only use the surge abilities of THAT weapon ... you cannot choose the use the surge abilities of the other weapon.

Edited by any2cards

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Step 2 dice roll

...

Step 4 spend surges

But I don,t know exactly how you would spend them if one surge gives blast property to attack.

IMO,

Step2: rolled 2 surges

step 4: I add blast to attack

Every figure hit by blast, roll defence, and I choose how to spend other surge.

Otherwise , every figure possibly affected by blast should roll defence on step 2, which would be extra cumbersome

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Step 2 dice roll

...

Step 4 spend surges

But I don,t know exactly how you would spend them if one surge gives blast property to attack.

IMO,

Step2: rolled 2 surges

step 4: I add blast to attack

Every figure hit by blast, roll defence, and I choose how to spend other surge.

Otherwise , every figure possibly affected by blast should roll defence on step 2, which would be extra cumbersome

If a figure is affected by an attack AFTER the roll dice step (usually in step 4), they roll their dice when they're added. Your idea is correct.

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To add to Zaltyres answer; When you are establishing range it is only possible to use surges to add range. This literally means that 'surge +x range' are the only surges that can be spent when the attack is still in the 'miss-phase'. So no surges can be spent to recover fatigue or other effects (e.g. some weapons grant movement points on surges). In other words rolling an 'X' and having insufficient range is the same -> all other results are ignored. 

 

Hey,

I'm pretty sure this is wrong, as explained on https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10166825#10166825. From what I gather, you may spend surges to recover fatigue, gain movement points, or other non-attack related effects, but no attack-related effects (except +range), like turning your attack into a blast or something similar. Do correct me if I'm wrong though  :) .

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The link refers to having fewer hearts on the attack roll than shields on the defense roll (unluckily referred to as "melee miss").

In such a situation you can use your surges.

If you actually "miss" (you roll an X), you're not allowed to use the surge.

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Strange. Either this was changed in some other FAQ or we have been playing this wrong

>Can you spend surges on a ranged "miss" to recover fatigue or activate other abilities?

Adam wrote:

If this is referring to not rolling enough range, then yes you can spend the surge.

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Strange. Either this was changed in some other FAQ or we have been playing this wrong

>Can you spend surges on a ranged "miss" to recover fatigue or activate other abilities?

Adam wrote:

If this is referring to not rolling enough range, then yes you can spend the surge.

I'm not sure where/when that response is from. The one that I've most often referenced/seen referenced is here (and it states that it overrides the ruling by Adam you're referencing, I think):

 

 

As Psymia stated, the scenario flamebane is referring to (shields > damage) is not a miss, it's just an attack where the damage dealt will likely be zero. Note that the state of the attack (miss vs hit) is determined in step 3, but the damage dealt isn't calculated until step 5.

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I'm not sure where/when that response is from. The one that I've most often referenced/seen referenced is here (and it states that it overrides the ruling by Adam you're referencing, I think):

 

thank you for clarification. sometimes i hate incostistency of descent rules, it's wording, and incostistent responses...

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I'm not sure where/when that response is from. The one that I've most often referenced/seen referenced is here (and it states that it overrides the ruling by Adam you're referencing, I think):

 

thank you for clarification. sometimes i hate incostistency of descent rules, it's wording, and incostistent responses...

 

It is rumored that someday FFG will release an Errata that will end all rules discussion. But be warned, stay long enough on this forum, and those rumors will turn into faint whispers....

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It is rumored that someday FFG will release an Errata that will end all rules discussion. But be warned, stay long enough on this forum, and those rumors will turn into faint whispers....

 

 

 

I have been here from the very beginning ... I have probably been the most vociferous advocate of getting a new, competent FAQ (similar to what is available for X-Wing).

 

I am 75 years old.

 

I am not sure I will see such a thing before I die.

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