MC 80 and E-Wings?

[RPLev 19]

Hello all. I have been an X Wing TMG player for the longest time. I am moving over to Armada though. I was recently gifted some pieces, however, I am going to wait for Wave 5 before I plan out what to get. I also need to find the Armada group for my area (I don't use FB).

While I wait I was hoping I could get some input on the E-Wings and my current theory crafted list.

I will start with the E-Wings. I know it's a bit early to tell but, I thought I would try asking.. will they be a fine Fighter Replacement? I am asking because I am aware from reading the Forums that a lot of people say the A-Wing is the best for Rebels. I am curious as to if that will change anytime soon.

As for the MC 80's.. I have read the other posts about it. Those builds do not suit my playstyle, and I have other ideas that I would like to try with them. I thought it would be best to make my own post, rather than "hi-jack" the other ones. This is my current thoughts:

319 Points Total

MC 80 Battle Cruiser (Flag Ship)

Commander Sato
Toryn Farr
Gunnery Team
Engineering Team
Overload Pulse
Spinal Armament
Endeavor

MC 80 Battle Cruiser

Raymus Antilles
Gunnery Team
Engineering Team
SW-7 Ion Batteries
Spinal Armament
Mon Karren

The logic I had with this list, was to be more defensive. At 5 Engineering, and Red Dice, I can hit from a distance, and take a lot of hits back. This will help if I am up against the lists I have seen in the Tournament Videos (ISD and Gladiators, or 2 ISD's). The Gunners increase my efficiency when doing this by allowing me to hit more than one Ship a turn.

The MC 80 that isn't the Flag Ship will be doing most of the work. It's why it has Raymus, Mon Karren and the SW-7. When I Concentrate Fire, Raymus will give me a Token to use with the Command Dial. With the Flag Ship giving it 1 Blue Re-Roll, it can try to turn a blank in to a hit using the SW-7. Then I can use Commander Sato to turn 2 Red Dice to Black.

I did check the rules on that and asked around. Feel free to correct me if this is wrong though. The rules say that at Red Distance you must use Reds. However, it is a declared attack, so Sato can over ride that. The declared attack is a Red but, the Red Dice are being changed. It's a modification after the fact. At least that is my understanding of it.

This list can down grade to Star Cruisers to save 14 points, or to make more room for E-Wings. Or to make room for a Pelta Class, with A-Wings (depending on what that will cost).

So far, is this list Tournament worthy? If not, what changes need to be made? Any help is appreciated.

Edited October 12, 2016 by RPLev

[Mad Cat 2,250]

Put Ray on a star cruiser with the Liberty title to get 4 squadrons activations if you need it. Put the OL pulse on this ship as it has more blue dice to try and get the blue crit.

 

Mon Karren is better as a battle cruiser.

 

I would drop engineering teams as 4 repair points gets you 2 shields anyway so a 5th wouldn't help that often.

 

Until wave 5 comes out get some games in anyway and learn the game, make some mistakes and refine your list. In the mean time use a few X-wings, Jan and some disposable A-Wings to fling at the enemy from a squadron token just before you fire to activate Sato.

 

A third ship maybe a GR75 with comms net or boosted comms could be useful to move some squadrons around for Sato's benefit.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

I suspect Ewings will be support type squadrons. The z95s will be main body fighters though, so the pack will have some kind of squadron force in it.

[Church14 2,495]

Ewings are likely going to straddle between XWings and AWings. The statline should look like a speed 4 XWing with Snipe 3 instead of Escort. So probably 14 points. Snipe makes them more anti-squad than Xwings but less specialized than Awings.

Snipe makes them very much an anti-escort alpha strike squad. Jump in and assassinate Rhymer or the intel craft before getting bogged down.

They will excell most if somehow you can swing using slicer tools on the enemy carrier at the end of turn A and then alpha strike Ewings on turn B. That way your opponent lost their squad command and all non Rogue squads have to waste a turn moving and not shooting at the out of range Ewings.

[Norell 1,198]

With only two activation you may be in trouble. I would consider putting in a flotilla for support and to avoid unwanted activations.

[RPLev 19]

Mad Cat: At 5 you can restore 2 shields, and move 1 shield from another section. You are saying an additional shield isn't worth it? I will make notes of what else you said

Ginkapo: If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying the Z95 will be the new main body fighter?

Church14: I am not sure how that will be possible. The GR 75 is the only one I am aware of that can field Slicer Tools. They only have 4 Total HP. Is there some other ship that will be capable of this?

Norell: I am a little confused by that comment. That is probally because I am still new to the game. Do you mind elaborating?

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by RPLev

[Ginkapo 9,321]

As it looks like the correlian campaign squadron article must be just around the corner, I will refrain from answering that question till it is released.

[Church14 2,495]

I was addressing the Ewings in the abstract. I think there is justifiable reasons to take E-, X-, or A-wings in different fleet.

As it pertains to your fleet:

-Strip overload pulse and get a second sw7

-ditch engineering teams

-those changes net you around 13 free points? Add a Bright Hope for 20. Then move Sato and Toryn Farr to the flotilla. Now you keep around 75 for squads and a bid. Not a lot, but enough to hunt bombers or to buy those liberties time.

[Mad Cat 2,250]

Mad Cat: At 5 you can restore 2 shields, and move 1 shield from another section. You are saying an additional shield isn't worth it? I will make notes of what else you said

My reasoning is it takes a lot to kill a liberty with the double brace. So even with getting shot on the nose it is 2-3 good sized volleys we are talking about so the redirect will be used probably twice to use both side shields and after that you haven't that many spare shields to move around unlike on a MC80c for example. I just think the 10 points would be better spent elsewhere. A comms net on a flotilla could easily give each big ship 2-3 repair tokens per game which is a lot more resilience (and flexibility doing other things like nav or reroll). Yes it costs twice the cost but the third activation and a little flak too make it a good trade.

[RPLev 19]

Church14: I am only asking because I am new. The only way for me to learn is by doing the same thing I did in X Wing.. Ask questions. Why is an SW7 more valuable than an Overload Pulse? I see Overload Pulse all the time in the ISD's, however I have yet to see an SW7, on any ship. It's hard for me to tell what the logic is when I have nothing to go on.

Mad Cat and Church: I don't mind using the GR 75 idea however, to my knowledge Sato can be used on the Ship it's on. That means the Flagship can change it's own dice. Toryn Farr however is a different story. As far as I know she doesn't work the same.

So wouldn't it be adviseable to keep Sato on the ship that can last the longest? Move only Toryn to the GR 75?

If I am using an additional SW7 shouldn't I go with twin Star Cruisers? This would give me 1 additional Blue Dice to work with, possibly increasing the damage I have. Blues have 2 Accuracy, Reds only have 1. Or should I go double Battle Cruiser with the points I saved? (Upgrading from a Star Cruiser to a Battle Cruiser is 7 points)

Moving Toryn frees the Star Cruiser/Battle Cruiser for a different card. I was thinking Leia or Walex Blissex. Leia would give me more room to make mistakes.. If I make a wrong call on 1 Command Dial I could fix it with another. Or I could get Walex to make sure I bring back 1 Discarded Defense Token. Or I could leave that slot empty.

As far as the Engineers.. I was thinking putting Medical Team in there. I am not seeing too many other useful cards for that slot. It's 1 point and would allow me to Discard Crew Criticals.. Possibly saving my Engineering points. Should I put that there or just leave the slot alone?

Edited October 13, 2016 by RPLev

[Mad Cat 2,250]

Medical teams are great insurance on bigger ships for the tiny cost assuming you don't need the slot.

 

SW7s can be good on Mon Karren as the ship's special rule means you don't need several accuracies anyway, plus it is always a choice with SW7 as to if you convert non, one or several accuracies into damage. If the enemy have ECM protecting their brace then cash in all the accuracies. However, Overload pulse is also good on Mon Karren as the crit effect occurs after the target spends defence tokens. For this reason when an enemy sees a blue crit from an OL Pulse ship they often spend every token they can as they know they will be exhausted anyway, Mon Karren prevents this.

 

I would keep Sato on a big ship. Probably not on Mon Karren as it gives the enemy a harsh choice: Go for the nasty killy ship or the one with the commander on board.

 

Toryn on a GR75 makes sense. I prefer Toryn's ability in fighter heavy lists especially those with counterattack (A-wings) rather than for ship heavy.

[Church14 2,495]

Moving Sato to the GR75 forces your opponent to make priority calls on who to shoot. They can take the shot at your commander, but leave your damage dealers alone. They could also try to focus down the damage dealers.

Also, I blanked on it, but SW7s and Torynn are redundant. Especially on ships with black anti-squad.

Overload pulse is good, but really meshes with Imperials or Swarms better. With only two ships shooting, burning tokens or not using them to preserve them for a later turn is not so painful. Imperials also want it more for the ISD title Avenger.

Also, Overkoad pulse should be on a smaller ship that activates before your hammer. Putting it on the hammer doesn't do you a lot of good.

Walex and Lando are really good crew. Don't hesistate to bring them.

Leia changes a different ship's top dial, so put her on a command 1 ship that stays near command 3 shils.

[RPLev 19]

Ok so I could change the list a little and put in a C90 Corvette B. It would lower the amount of E-Wings I am fielding to roughly 3 (from 6 to 8). The C90 could be a Jaina's Light one, with the Overload Pulse, Redundant Shields, and Toryn. That would allow me to hide behind Asteroids while shooting the Overload. With 2 Star Cruisers, my point total is 351.

If E-Wings can't replace the A-Wing then I could scrap that idea and use the Pelta Class or stick with the GR 75.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Sato can be used on the Ship it's on.

Sato applies to the whole fleet. All the admiral effects are fleet-wide.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Ardaedhel

[Vergilius 2,118]

At 319 points and two ships, you're really limited at that point for the remainder of your fleet.

 

Now, I think we've got a lot of uncertainty to deal with going forward.  We don't know what objectives will be in Correlian Conflict, we don't know how the entirety of wave 5 will impact the meta.  It isn't just what the E-wing can and cannot do, but how all of the new squads interact with the old squads and what new synergies arise.  So your fleet might turn out to be that magic bullet that beats everything.  On the other hand, I suspect the general principles we've learned so far will still be relevant:

 

 

1.  Activation helps you set up shots with heavy hitters.  You've built both Liberty class ships to be heavy hitters.  One of them has to activate first.  They are inflexible in their maneuvering apart from Madine/Nav Teams/Nav Dials.  I see a good opponent being able to limit the quality of their shots considerably.  So that almost means grabbing a third activation minimum.  In my experience, if you're going to run double Liberties, you're better off making them much leaner and really ratcheting up the activations to help set them up.

 

2.  Placement gets your ships into position with optimal shots on the enemy.  Games are won and lost entirely on placement, and inflexible lists tend to suffer the most.   My sense is that you're just not going to have the points for enough squadrons to make placement meaningful.  Granted, maybe CC will give you some good objectives that force the enemy into the jaws of your beefed-up Liberty classes, but I've got a hunch that the objectives won't be forcing in quite that way.  In any respect, I think E-wings will be expensive enough that it will be hard to get a lot of placement out of them.  I think that's been the biggest key out of the A-wing so far, its the cheapest Rebel fighter and it is very good for its 11 points, so you can comfortably take several to give you the most placement possible or to give you fair amount of placement with more rooms for ship upgrades.  The Z95 might take over that role.  This is hard to say.  I'm not a huge fan of ties as it is, and I suspect something about that weak at about that cost.

 

If you really want to make your fleet tournament effective, you don't want to think at it from the perspective of "I just want to play ship X, Y, Z" and how do I do that?  You want to start first from the three meta-games:  1.  Ship versus ship  2.  Objectives  3.  Squadrons.   My guess is that a bunch of E-wings aren't going to win the squadron meta-game by themselve and may just end up feeding the opponent points, which means you'd have to be able to win the other two metagames to pull out a victory.  I'm not really sold that you'll have the best ship-to-ship interaction due to the low number of activations.  That really only leaves objectives, and those aren't often enough to win the game by themselves

[RPLev 19]

Vergilius: I agree there is a lot of uncertainty but, I want to at least start theory crafting. That way when wave 5 comes out I can look back at my notes and be like "ok this may work in the meta" or something.

This is going to be hard to explain.. I am still confused by this entire activation thing the forum speaks of. I am aware there is a Command Dial but, I struggle to understand how this factors in to the part that is being talked about specifically. So in this case are you saying I should use a Nav Team in place of the Engineers? Is Madine better than Sato (for 2 Black Dice)?

I can agree that is how you should approach a theory craft however there is another element to it. That is play style. That is something X Wing TMG taught me. I was one of the last "XXX" builds left in all of the tournaments. Despite the X-Wing being horribly under balanced (even with the T-70 stuff), I managed to place 100 in the System Open Series (out of 252 players), and top 5 in Regionals or Local Tournaments for 2 or so years straight. A lot of that success is attributed to how long I have been using X-Wings. I joined X Wing TMG when it first came out. I flew X-Wings from the Core to the T-70. I knew their counters, where to move and all of that. It was second hand nature to say the least.

Point I am getting to is I recognize that my theory craft may be flawed in some regards. This is due to me being new, and also because I am trying to work with a Ship that hasn't been used yet (from what I have seen). I am doing it because it fits my play style. I like the defensive capabilities, and how they are a jouster like my X-Wings. Ever since I was given the Liberty Expansion, in any practice match I haven't lost. I am really happy with those results, and wish to continue building upon that success, for a tournament sometime next year maybe. That is my goal. That is why I am asking questions, and trying my best to learn from you all

Edited October 14, 2016 by RPLev

[Formynder4 810]

So to explain activations and "activation advantage"... You have two ships, I have 5. One of my ships is just out of range of yours, but since I have more ships than you, I can stall by activating those ships first and wait for you to have to move your ship into range of mine. This is how traps are setup. Since there's no way to pass on activating a ship, only having 2 ships is a distinct disadvantage.

 

I never see fewer than 3 ships in a fleet now, and 4 is the most common number. This means that if I have first player against a 2 ship fleet, I'll be activating one of my ships before them, and attack, then move out of their way. By being able to sandwich my activations around yours it opens up a much wider set of actions. If I'm dead center in your front arc I can choose to move that ship out of your arc before you get to activate. If all of my ships are out of range then I can delay and force you to move into range before activating a ship that can now shoot at you that it couldn't earlier.

I hope this helps, if you need more, I'm sure one of Lyraeus' tutorial videos explains the concept as well.

 

[TallGiraffe 3,447]

Independence express YT-1300s to engage and E-Wings cover the edge out of Fire. Add Jan for extra fun.

[RPLev 19]

Formynder: Thank you this is what I was trying to ask about. I will look that up

TallGiraffe: Interesting idea. Why the YT-1300 though? I saw in other posts they wern't that great. I am still unsure as to why that is said. If they are good I am interested to hear why

[Vergilius 2,118]

Vergilius: I agree there is a lot of uncertainty but, I want to at least start theory crafting. That way when wave 5 comes out I can look back at my notes and be like "ok this may work in the meta" or something.

This is going to be hard to explain.. I am still confused by this entire activation thing the forum speaks of. I am aware there is a Command Dial but, I struggle to understand how this factors in to the part that is being talked about specifically. So in this case are you saying I should use a Nav Team in place of the Engineers? Is Madine better than Sato (for 2 Black Dice)?

I can agree that is how you should approach a theory craft however there is another element to it. That is play style. That is something X Wing TMG taught me. I was one of the last "XXX" builds left in all of the tournaments. Despite the X-Wing being horribly under balanced (even with the T-70 stuff), I managed to place 100 in the System Open Series (out of 252 players), and top 5 in Regionals or Local Tournaments for 2 or so years straight. A lot of that success is attributed to how long I have been using X-Wings. I joined X Wing TMG when it first came out. I flew X-Wings from the Core to the T-70. I knew their counters, where to move and all of that. It was second hand nature to say the least.

Point I am getting to is I recognize that my theory craft may be flawed in some regards. This is due to me being new, and also because I am trying to work with a Ship that hasn't been used yet (from what I have seen). I am doing it because it fits my play style. I like the defensive capabilities, and how they are a jouster like my X-Wings. Ever since I was given the Liberty Expansion, in any practice match I haven't lost. I am really happy with those results, and wish to continue building upon that success, for a tournament sometime next year maybe. That is my goal. That is why I am asking questions, and trying my best to learn from you all

 

I appreciate the thoughts.  Thanks for sharing.

 

One of the other posters discussed activation advantage above.

 

I think we can back this up one step further.  To win the game, you have to score more than your opponent, and most of that comes through killing.  If you look at the winner of a typical game, the winner typically rolls more dice than the loser.  Sure, there are upgrades that may have made modifications good, but when it comes down to it, those are available to both players and they often operate at the margins.  This is true of pretty much every strategical game built around dice.  So that takes us to the question of:  "How exactly do we do that?"   That's the central strategical question.  Activation advantage is part of that answer.  Its not all of it, but it is justly part of it.

 

The X-wing analogy is worth-while.  Even more prescient for Star Wars Armada is the fact that most of the ships in the game are quite good and few really have a feeling of being underpowered.  If you can fly your fleet well, you have good chances of winning.  I think the LIberty is absolutely solid and I think it has seen play so far.  I'm not sure its been posted as blowing away entire tournaments yet, but I can think of a number of builds in which it could be quite good.  I suppose theoretically speaking, a double Liberty + squads isn't going to play too differently from a double-ISD plus squads.  Except there will possibly be a few more points when the dust settles for squads.  So we already know something of how those builds play.

 

Feel free to ask away with questions and we'll help you theory-craft.  Always happy to help.

[RPLev 19]

Vergilius: Thank you. This is what I needed. Unfortunately I am not to the point of understanding terminology. Now I am starting to because of all the responses in this post.

Yes the dice game was present in X-Wing TMG as well. That is how my theory craft started with the 2 Liberty and E-Wing build. I looked at the current metas and I noticed that if an ISD is present, they don't use Spinal Armament. Even in the top tournaments last year, the very few ISD's that were present, and were higher up in the leader boards, didn't have it. So I sat there and looked at the MC 80 Battle Cruiser and realized it's Red Dice is the same as the ISD 2. Having 2 Battle Cruisers with Spinal Armament means I now out dice them by 1 at long range. I am an even dice roll at medium range.

If I have 1 Battle Cruiser, 1 Star Cruiser, I am still even.

Knowing the Battle Cruiser(s)/Star would be busy with ISD's and Gladiators, I knew I needed a Squadron set up that was Rogue so I wouldn't be reliant on a carrier ship. That was why the original build (before all the responses) left room for 6 to 8 E-Wings. Now that I realize that even 8 E-Wings may not cut it, I am looking in to other options.

As of today I came up with yet another idea to perhaps accomplish this. I forgot about Hera Syndula being in Wave 5. She can give Rogue to 2 Ships. 1 could be Jan Ors, while the other is either Tycho or the other Unique A-Wing in the Corellian Mission Expansion. Hera is only 8 points more than the GR 75 idea earlier in the post. For 8 points I get 4 Anti Fighter dice which is way more than the GR 75. I could lower my E-Wing count to 5 or 6 to ensure I have a Ghost and an A-Wing to back them up.

Here is the update to the original list.. For the GR 75 or Pelta idea refer to above posts

307 Total

MC 80 Battle Cruiser:

Raymus Antilles
Gunnery Team
Nav Team (or Medical)
SW-7 Ion Batteries
Spinal Armament
Mon Karren

MC 80 Star Cruiser:

General Sato (or Madine)
Toryn Farr
Gunnery Team
Nav Team (or Medical)
SW-7 Ion Batteries
Spinal Armament
Endeavor

Hera Syndula, Jan Ors, A-Wing, E-Wings (or an A-Wing in place of Jan)

The logic with me keeping Toryn on the Star is because it's more defensive (Contain Token), and would allow me to keep close to the Squadrons (for the re-rolls). You were talking about Nav Teams so I can put them there instead of the Medical Team. It's 3 points more if I did that. If you feel the points are better spent else where, I can do that. I still have 2 Turbo Laser slots not in use (1 on each ship). I could add an X17 to deal with the ISD Redirects. Though I am not sure how effective they would be. I am wondering if the Dual Turbo Laser Turret would be more effective. That would give me 6 Red Dice (on the Battle Cruiser) for the long range poke. They cost 5, and are in Wave 5.

The point difference in the Star and Battle is 7 points. There is that option as well if needed. I was thinking the 7 point save could be used for those Nav Teams or something else.

We have to wait for the Corellian Mission Expansion but, I am thinking 2 Unique A-Wings would be better than 1, and Jan Ors. Sure treating 1 Squad as Heavy is nice, and being able to share Tokens but, A-Wings like Tycho already have better Tokens I think. Scatter is more effective than Brace from what I have seen. Not only that, I am not sure if I can rely on Jan Ors as much as the A-Wings for being "tanks" for the E-Wings. We will see

Thank you. I have said this before in the past but, I think someone should start a Discord for the Armada and TMG Squad Builds so we can freely talk without clogging the forums up. I would do it but, I am too busy to maintain it. I am barely on mine as is. What I can do is Private Message the people in this post with my Discord so you can try it, and see if my idea is good. It doesn't require an account. You just need a web browser to join. It has Instant Message and Voice Talk. I will send the link if you say yes
 

Edited October 15, 2016 by RPLev

[RPLev 19]

It lagged/bugged out and caused me to post the same thing twice. I will have to figure out how to delete this one

Edited October 15, 2016 by RPLev

[Vergilius 2,118]

It sounds like you need experience playing the game more.   Spinal Armaments wasn't used in the old lists because it just came out in the latest set of expansions, the meta for which is still unfolding.  You spend an awful lot of time comparing your lists back and forth with an ISD front arc as if that were the be-all end-all of list comparisons.   Yes, if you're jousting and flying straight at each other, it matters a tiny bit, but controlling your range and speed of engagement is going to matter a lot more.  Armada isn't like X-wing in that you only get six turns and you have to make the absolute most of them while they're happening.  Once you get some experience, you'll start to see your list differently, and that's when we can help more.  I think we've probably done what we can for now.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Thank you. I have said this before in the past but, I think someone should start a Discord for the Armada and TMG Squad Builds so we can freely talk without clogging the forums up. I would do it but, I am too busy to maintain it. I am barely on mine as is. What I can do is Private Message the people in this post with my Discord so you can try it, and see if my idea is good. It doesn't require an account. You just need a web browser to join. It has Instant Message and Voice Talk. I will send the link if you say yes

Hmm... I've never used Discord, but just got done poking around with it a bit as a result of this mention, and I've gotta say, I rather like what I've seen.  I don't see one up yet, so I think I'll go ahead and start just a general Armada Discord. 

[RPLev 19]

Vergilius: Yes I do need more experience. It will be difficult because my area's Armada group is non existant as I learned an hour ago. The leader is at school, and the other members went to X Wing TMG. So I now have no outlet for it.

I compare it to back then because it's all I have to go on. The last Tournament I watched was a few months ago. I don't remember the date of the video exaclty (it was 2016 though). If the meta stays similar after Wave 5, then I have it somewhat figured out at least.

Ardaedhel: Discord is awesome. I am part of the Twitch Broadcasting Community. I don't Stream anymore but, I do show up as a Guest, or assist other Streamers. Least to say I use Discord a lot. It's been a lot better to me than Teamspeak.

If you need help setting up, let me know. I will join and walk you through it

Edited October 15, 2016 by RPLev