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flyboymb

On stormtroopers

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Ever since the shakeup following the announcement of Legends, I've seen two statements repeatedly made on forums about stormtrooper armor and marksmanship. The armor statement states that stormtrooper armor was made to keep the wearers alive versus clonetrooper armor which was more deflect or die. The marksmanship portion stated that the Death Star fight between Luke and crew and the 501st involved the stormtroopers intentionally missing in order to ensure the Rebels got away.

 

So first off, I'm wanting to know if there's any actual canonical evidence supporting these claims. The wook doesn't seem to point in either direction outside of Legends.

 

I'm assuming the armor claim has to do with Star Wars Rebels. The stormtroopers of that show just never seem to die (instead they always seem to groan or twitch around). I think its a safe bet that this is due to Disney not wanting large numbers of corpses killed by firearms in a kids show, but is that actual evidence for the claim? It would seem that the argument should be reversed. The Republic and Jedi would most likely place a large degree of importance on preserving clone lives due to ethics and the fact that they couldn't afford to lose a great number due to the slow pace of growing replacements. The Empire is more directly based on Sith dogma. You will get thrown in with the endless hordes to take out the Empire's enemies and if you succeed we'll bother spending the money to put you in more durable equipment. If you fail, it was because you were weak. Why should you get a second chance? It just doesn't seem to jive that the Empire would put their pilots in fragile yet numerous TIE Fighters but give their stormtroopers something much more costly than the bare minimum.

 

The marksmanship comment actually runs into issues in reverse. The concept makes perfect sense when viewed with common sense. If these guys could hit the left antenna of an ant at 100 yards, killing all the Death Star raiders would result in the Rebel base remaining hidden. But then we run into issues like this in the Disney canon:

 

 

or this:

 

 

While Zeb and Sabine do a good bit of dancing around, there's still points where they're stopping to posture some 10-20 feet away from multiple troopers and not getting lit up. Considering that plot armor is outside the canon and that these stormtroopers had no reason to let these two live, the only explanation is that stormtroopers simply cannot hit a target that is within spitting distance of them.

Edited by flyboymb

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in regards to teh accuracy part, in the Rebels episode where the Interdictor shows up, Rex does say he can't hit anything in the armour, then proceeds to remove his helmet and hit everything.  It IS possible, (tho stupid), that the Stormie helmets inhibit accuracy.  Note that the Mandalorian and clone armour have vision slits while stormtrooper armour has eye holes.  Seeing as you look at an angle when sighting a rifle, eye holes could be a hindrance.  Kind of dumb and a bit of a stretch, but, there it is.

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Storm Trooper armor is also supposed to be sealed for limited space exposure and immune to physical attacks yet in TFA Finn states that all the masks do is filter smoke and ROTJ we have the ewoks dropping rocks and shooting arrows. 

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Yeah, just seeing if there was anything behind the weird comments of the Youtubes. Wouldn't have even asked about it if it wasn't made in multiple places by multiple people.

 

For what its worth, I've had to use a rifle with a pro mask on before. Because you can't seat your face properly against the rifle and still be able to see, you pretty much put it loosely on your shoulder then angle it over. The rear sight of the M16/M4 can be switched between a narrow daytime and wider nighttime sight which is the one that you use with the mask. Most qualification is limited to 100m, but the regs allow you to train with targets up to 300m away. Between the filtered air and the individual eye holes, its probably the closest thing you can get to wearing a stormtrooper helmet without buying the real deal.

 

Considering how often characters seem to dodge the bolts, maybe the slower speed makes it more difficult to hit a target on the run?

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The marksmanship portion stated that the Death Star fight between Luke and crew and the 501st involved the stormtroopers intentionally missing in order to ensure the Rebels got away.

 

There is as far as I know, no official answer to this.  People have made that argument before and I can see the point, but it is nothing more than speculation.  

 

Really what it comes down to is trying to come up with a reasonable explanation for plot armor.  Myself I find it interesting how much time and effort goes into trying to explain plot holes and plot armor.

 

For example the whole "It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs" thing.  Clearly it was just that George picked a term that sounded like it fit and was really little more than technobabble.  Yet we have people who've spent a lot of time and effort to come up with ways to make it work.

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The marksmanship portion stated that the Death Star fight between Luke and crew and the 501st involved the stormtroopers intentionally missing in order to ensure the Rebels got away.

 

There is as far as I know, no official answer to this.  People have made that argument before and I can see the point, but it is nothing more than speculation.  

 

Really what it comes down to is trying to come up with a reasonable explanation for plot armor.  Myself I find it interesting how much time and effort goes into trying to explain plot holes and plot armor.

 

For example the whole "It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs" thing.  Clearly it was just that George picked a term that sounded like it fit and was really little more than technobabble.  Yet we have people who've spent a lot of time and effort to come up with ways to make it work.

 

 

The discussion and theorizing is part of the fun, and when we come to an agreement (those few, few times  :D ) it brings the Galaxy a little bit closer.

 

You can marvel at others or join in yourself, people have wasted time on lesser things. (And one or two better.)

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One thing I've come to realize is that with Legends axing a good chunk of the lore, there really isn't any mention of the Imperial Army anymore, at least not to the extent that there used to be Imperial Army troopers that were in a totally different chain of command than stormtroopers.

 

Does that make the stormtrooper the standard grunt of the Empire instead of the elite corps that it used to be?

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You can marvel at others or join in yourself, people have wasted time on lesser things. (And one or two better.)

 

Oh make no mistake I've engaged in that sort of fandom before and will do so again.  I guess my post did make it sound negative and I really didn't intend to.

 

Going back to Stormtroopers for example. On Tatooine, Obi Wan makes it clear that stormtroopers are good shots... " And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

 

So logically the fact that a Stormtrooper can't hit the broadside of a sandcrawler when shooting at the heroes there's a reason for it.  The real reason is plot armor, but it makes sense that there's a in-universe logical reason for it.

 

Funny enough... Apparently George had at some point claimed the reason was because they were trying to let the heroes escape.  Which doesn't explain why they were such poor shots on Tatooine or Endor for that matter.  But then again George has also claimed that Han was never supposed to shoot first...

Edited by VanorDM

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One thing I've come to realize is that with Legends axing a good chunk of the lore, there really isn't any mention of the Imperial Army anymore, at least not to the extent that there used to be Imperial Army troopers that were in a totally different chain of command than stormtroopers.

 

Does that make the stormtrooper the standard grunt of the Empire instead of the elite corps that it used to be?

The Stormtroopers started as Space Marines, spaceborne troopers that were deployed for terrestrial combat. It seems that like regular Marines, they have overshadowed the army to the point that they have basically become it. I saw them operating tanks in the RS trailers so yeah: They are now the first, last, and only line of defense when it comes to infantry.

 

 

You can marvel at others or join in yourself, people have wasted time on lesser things. (And one or two better.)

 

Oh make no mistake I've engaged in that sort of fandom before and will do so again.  I guess my post did make it sound negative and I really didn't intend to.

 

Going back to Stormtroopers for example. On Tatooine, Obi Wan makes it clear that stormtroopers are good shots... " And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

 

So logically the fact that a Stormtrooper can't hit the broadside of a sandcrawler when shooting at the heroes there's a reason for it.  The real reason is plot armor, but it makes sense that there's a in-universe logical reason for it.

 

Funny enough... Apparently George had at some point claimed the reason was because they were trying to let the heroes escape.  Which doesn't explain why they were such poor shots on Tatooine or Endor for that matter.  But then again George has also claimed that Han was never supposed to shoot first...

There is a thread from the dark ages you may be interested in. I will find it...

 

Edit.

 

It was so long ago I couldn't find it. Basically DariusAPB had the same questions about stormtroopers, so we spent about 6 pages of thread improving them until they were basically mostly-female Knights of Zakuul with advanced tactical training and full combined arms support. So many troopers...

 

giphy.gif

 

Double edit.

 

This might help: it's me, but it's old me so it's more upbeat and eloquent. 

 

photo-thumb-259633.jpg?_r=1445146037 Posted by OneKelvin on 26 March 2016 - 04:39 AM in X-Wing

Suriel, on 26 Mar 2016 - 03:53 AM, said:snapback.png

 

Captain Lackwit, on 25 Mar 2016 - 4:57 PM, said:snapback.png

They really need to make Phoenix Squadron better though.

With a name like that, I expect Star Fox levels of badass. Not these... Fools who think their swoop racing experience actually translates very well to controlling a starfighter- a sophisticated machine of war.

It's also making the A-Wing look REALLY BAD.

And that's exactly how Empire fans feel about how Imperial troops are portrayed in this cartoon.

 

 

Thing is, I don't think there is really much in the way of real armies at this point in galactic history. Let me explain why I think that may be so.

 

First, some history.

 

CIS Droid Army: The best army a corporation could ask for; an unending tide of blaster-wielding fodder bought from the lowest bidder for occupations and assaults filled out with mega-weapons and mechanical monstrosities that give even Jedi reason to fear. The cheapest and the best that money can buy all with no family benefits or unions.

 

Republic Clone Army: Domesticated slave-copies of the finest bounty hunter in the known galaxy, loyal to their designated masters and filled with patriotic dogma from the beginning of their oh-so-brief childhoods to the end of their accelerated lives. Their families are the corps; the only death-benefit they require is another chance for vengeance against their enemy. Add a dash of mind-control, a lifetime of training, and some of the classiest armor seen since Guinevere had second thoughts and: boom! A Grand Army for an Old Republic.

 

And now to our current era.

 

Stormtrooper corps: The Emperor's Finest in the same vein as 40k; that is to say one-part military police and two-parts thug with a gun. The Empire has no enemies. No kingdom, alliance, or empire could ever compete with The Empire head-to-head: they don't need soldiers, they need . . . peacekeepers. Any man who can hold a blaster and can pass basic training is suitable for patrolling the streets and going on parade; and with such a large galaxy to dominate, quantity is chosen over quality almost every time. The Republic used to let systems govern themselves, and thus only needed an army of a few million to take key systems and set up defenses. The Empire needs an army of billions working around the clock to keep *every* planet in line; the cost and time would be staggering for just conscripts: unthinkable for soldiers of clone-caliber. And, while they are just as often clumsy kids hopped-up on propaganda than soldiering material, regular run-of-the-mill humans do have three large advantages. One, they live for upwards of ninety years each, so you aren't replacing them for years unless they get killed; two, they are everywhere; and three, they are LEGION. If you want an army on the cheap, and you don't trust droids: human conscripts are the way to go.

 

Rebels: Not much to say here, not even sure if they have the title Alliance yet. Nerf-herders, wamp-rat hunters, salesmen, fish aliens, pirates. Motley doesn't even begin to describe it. Their good pilots and soldiers are mostly monks and old spaeciet-nam vets. Half of the recruits have never fired a blaster in anger before in their lives, the other half are too angry to hit anything! They are well-funded by secret rich patrons, and they have a general grassroots support, but that's about all they have going for them right now. 

 

Patriots vs Dreamers, Rebels vs Soldier-boys: there hasn't been a real war in years.

 

 

TLDR

 

The stormtrooper corps at this point in time isn't very badass because really, who have they had to sharpen their steel on besides local merchants and petty thugs?

 

Oh yes, they do become good. When the Empire starts losing systems, it's garrisons become overrun, and the plastic MPs are forced to fend off guerrilla attacks on all sides: the army becomes better. Funding is freed up for better training, the battles create veterans and heroes; combat grinds away the fat, and leaves a solid edge of steel on both sides.

 

And nothing changes in terms of engagement balance.

 

cliff_by_fragmented_shadows-d65zl0q.gif

Edited by OneKelvin

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Clone Trooper armor is definitely not made to just deflect. If anything, it looks far sturdier then Stormtrooper Armor, although there's really no way to compare them (logic would dictate that Stormtroopers would have better armor because of existing later in-universe, but applying logic to Star Wars is bound to fail). The only thing we can really say about that, is that both types of armor are designed to protect the wearer as much as possible (and fail all the time as we see).

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I remember that, but can't take credit. Someone started a "If I was a stormtrooper commander" thread, and we all added ideas...

Edit: Ohshoot I did start this. This started after that debacle with Sabines black sun friend, that rebels episode.

 

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/194027-if-i-ever-command-a-stormtrooper-unit/

 

 

 

Edited by DariusAPB

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I think the Stormtrooper armor being really good came from the Westend games RPG stuff and the old EU. I mean it could be stupid silly good, like it could just soak up shot after shot as it just turned the armor black, but what it comes down to is plot armor. The stormtroopers are treated as canon fodder grunts so they die with 1 shot and can't hit a named character if their lives depended on it, now when we have a story that focuses on the troopers as main characters they suddenly can hit their targets and take a hit. So the whole not being able to shoot things and not being able to take a hit thing has been around long before Disney bought Star Wars.

 

And as for Rebels the stormtroopers are pretty much taking the role of the battle droids from the Clone Wars where they are basically just there to get taken out by the heroes. And just like the Clone Wars where we got the Battle Droid Commandos to sort of be a threat I'm sure we will see some stormtrooper variant that is a sort of threat to the main characters at some point.

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For anyone intersted, I found some old pics on Wookipedia of what the Imperial Army troopers used to look like; before they were edited out of existence.

 

LightningBatalion.jpg

 

Imperial_Trooper_Deployment.jpg

 

IcariiCampaign.jpg

 

Yes, that head is still alive. They had to resort to bio-weapons to clear that planet off.  :wacko:

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It was a stupid error on the filming team's part when Mark said he couldn't see, they just wung it after. On top of the amateur combat directing, this has perpetuated into a normality for Storm Troopers to be more innacurate and incompetent than Hadjis.

So no, there isn't supposed to be anything in writing, Lucas and Disney went with it and everyone else before and after continues with it for storytelling tradition.

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Yeah, just seeing if there was anything behind the weird comments of the Youtubes. Wouldn't have even asked about it if it wasn't made in multiple places by multiple people.

 

For what its worth, I've had to use a rifle with a pro mask on before. Because you can't seat your face properly against the rifle and still be able to see, you pretty much put it loosely on your shoulder then angle it over. The rear sight of the M16/M4 can be switched between a narrow daytime and wider nighttime sight which is the one that you use with the mask. Most qualification is limited to 100m, but the regs allow you to train with targets up to 300m away. Between the filtered air and the individual eye holes, its probably the closest thing you can get to wearing a stormtrooper helmet without buying the real deal.

 

Considering how often characters seem to dodge the bolts, maybe the slower speed makes it more difficult to hit a target on the run?

Also, if you watch those 2 videos and pay attention to how the Stormtroopers are firing their weapons, it's more of a "spray and pray" style from the hip instead of aimed fire.

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