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John79

something that cought my attention in the latest dev article

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Having played once through the core campaign, i thought it funny that a developers article said we saw a hole where more health for a hero was needed for those imperial players that focus on one hero at a time. so we made a tanky hero that allows others to hide behind.

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I found it funny too since tanks are supposed to mitigate damage, and he does the opposite.  He looks like the best target for the Imperial player to shoot down first.  If he doesn't end up being better when wounded, he's a big failure from a design standpoint.

 

A better tank is Murn.  Solidarity means anyone can heal her during their turn, she can receive so much healing in fact she's makes the "wound out all heroes" missions without a time limit almost impossible for the Imperials.  And hitting her pulls strain off allies because lets just totally screw the Imperials, lol.  She practically never has to spend her own actions moving and she gets one of the better damage boosting abilities too.

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I found it funny too since tanks are supposed to mitigate damage, and he does the opposite.  He looks like the best target for the Imperial player to shoot down first.  If he doesn't end up being better when wounded, he's a big failure from a design standpoint.

 

A better tank is Murn.  Solidarity means anyone can heal her during their turn, she can receive so much healing in fact she's makes the "wound out all heroes" missions without a time limit almost impossible for the Imperials.  And hitting her pulls strain off allies because lets just totally screw the Imperials, lol.  She practically never has to spend her own actions moving and she gets one of the better damage boosting abilities too.

 

But then why target Murne?  I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but it's not related to the issue they were trying to address.  It wasn't so much that they wanted to add a 'tank' as that they wanted to add a 'bodyguard'.

 

They're talking about a group where one hero is for whatever reason consistently targeted by the imperial player.  Maybe the rebels have spent most of their money on getting Jynn a bunch of great pistols.  Maybe one of the players is Davith and the imp always likes to take him out early to get rid of his force speed.  In a mission with a bunch of attribute tests a smart imperial is going to wound Saska so that she can't use her device tokens to help (can't remember the ability name off the top of my head).  If the imperial player wanted to concentrate on a particular rebel there was very little you could do to stop that hero from getting wounded.

 

Well now you can, or at least that's the intent with Onar.  We'll see how effective it ends up being.  The fact that Onar is the perfect target for the imps to focus on is kind of the point - if they're focusing on him then they are not focusing on one of the others.

Edited by ManateeX

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I found it funny too since tanks are supposed to mitigate damage, and he does the opposite.  He looks like the best target for the Imperial player to shoot down first.  If he doesn't end up being better when wounded, he's a big failure from a design standpoint.

 

A better tank is Murn.  Solidarity means anyone can heal her during their turn, she can receive so much healing in fact she's makes the "wound out all heroes" missions without a time limit almost impossible for the Imperials.  And hitting her pulls strain off allies because lets just totally screw the Imperials, lol.  She practically never has to spend her own actions moving and she gets one of the better damage boosting abilities too.

 

But then why target Murne?  I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but it's not related to the issue they were trying to address.  It wasn't so much that they wanted to add a 'tank' as that they wanted to add a 'bodyguard'.

 

They're talking about a group where one hero is for whatever reason consistently targeted by the imperial player.  Maybe the rebels have spent most of their money on getting Jynn a bunch of great pistols.  Maybe one of the players is Davith and the imp always likes to take him out early to get rid of his force speed.  In a mission with a bunch of attribute tests a smart imperial is going to wound Saska so that she can't use her device tokens to help (can't remember the ability name off the top of my head).  If the imperial player wanted to concentrate on a particular rebel there was very little you could do to stop that hero from getting wounded.

 

Well now you can, or at least that's the intent with Onar.  We'll see how effective it ends up being.  The fact that Onar is the perfect target for the imps to focus on is kind of the point - if they're focusing on him then they are not focusing on one of the others.

 

 

Making an even weaker link doesn't fix the problem of a team having a weak link...  As I said, Onar needs to flip better or he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing.  If he loses speed then he'll just be a useless anchor on the team.  We'll find out when Jabba's Palace comes out.

 

As for Murn, not shooting at her is usually the best choice... except in most missions the Imperial victory condition is to wound out all heroes so they have to.

 

Solidarity combined with Figurehead is so strong that the Imperials are usually better forcing at least one other Rebel to withdraw before trying to wound Murn.

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In my opinion the role of tank is: 

1. Take the hits for your team

2. Do this for as long as possible. 

 

I think Onars has the possibility to do both

 

You'll have to explain that one...

 

Stormtrooper squad shooting Onar will probably do 10 damage.  To black die defense hero they'll probably do 6.

 

Later in the campaign when Heroes get bonus health, Onar looks like he may be in the running for the most fragile hero!!!

 

And since the healing he receives from outside sources like MHD-19 or Gideon's Rallying Cry or medpacks etc. isn't boosted, but the damage he receives effectively is... he's HORRIBLE to try to keep alive, he takes an entire emergency med kit in extra damage from 1 trooper squad, what a huge waste.

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It looks like he doesn't use strain to power his abilities, which means every time he rests, he heals 6 damage, provided he hasn't taken strain damage from Trandoshans or Subversive Tactics.

 

I am eager to see what his other class abilities are, and what happens when he gets wounded.

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In my opinion the role of tank is: 

1. Take the hits for your team

2. Do this for as long as possible. 

 

I think Onars has the possibility to do both

 

You'll have to explain that one...

 

Stormtrooper squad shooting Onar will probably do 10 damage.  To black die defense hero they'll probably do 6.

 

Later in the campaign when Heroes get bonus health, Onar looks like he may be in the running for the most fragile hero!!!

 

And since the healing he receives from outside sources like MHD-19 or Gideon's Rallying Cry or medpacks etc. isn't boosted, but the damage he receives effectively is... he's HORRIBLE to try to keep alive, he takes an entire emergency med kit in extra damage from 1 trooper squad, what a huge waste.

 

 

Interesting... to Onar they do 10, to a black defense hero 6...

 

Onar has 20 HP, a black die hero probably has 12. 12/6 = 20/10. Go figure :D

 

Add to that the fact that he can't receive harmful conditions, gets 1.5 Rests for the price of one, and has abilities increase his defenses (not to mention HP), and he actually starts to look pretty reasonable in my opinion...

Edited by Stompburger

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I'd bet that his class cards are full of defensive bonuses (to himself & others around him) to compensate for his lack of def & purpose of a tanky hero

 

a possible 3/4xp card: "if you're healthy, all heroes (including you) within 3 space of you add +1 block to defense result"

another possible 2/3xp card: "recover 2 extra strain when you rest"

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I'd bet that his class cards are full of defensive bonuses (to himself & others around him) to compensate for his lack of def & purpose of a tanky hero

 

a possible 3/4xp card: "if you're healthy, all heroes (including you) within 3 space of you add +1 block to defense result"

another possible 2/3xp card: "recover 2 extra strain when you rest"

Wouldn't it be awesome if it was "if you're wounded all heroes in 3 spaces get +1 block" :D

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In my opinion the role of tank is: 

1. Take the hits for your team

2. Do this for as long as possible. 

 

I think Onars has the possibility to do both

 

You'll have to explain that one...

 

Stormtrooper squad shooting Onar will probably do 10 damage.  To black die defense hero they'll probably do 6.

 

Later in the campaign when Heroes get bonus health, Onar looks like he may be in the running for the most fragile hero!!!

 

And since the healing he receives from outside sources like MHD-19 or Gideon's Rallying Cry or medpacks etc. isn't boosted, but the damage he receives effectively is... he's HORRIBLE to try to keep alive, he takes an entire emergency med kit in extra damage from 1 trooper squad, what a huge waste.

 

 

Interesting... to Onar they do 10, to a black defense hero 6...

 

Onar has 20 HP, a black die hero probably has 12. 12/6 = 20/10. Go figure :D

 

Add to that the fact that he can't receive harmful conditions, gets 1.5 Rests for the price of one, and has abilities increase his defenses (not to mention HP), and he actually starts to look pretty reasonable in my opinion...

 

 

This. Also, we havent seen all his class cards. We were promised to see an aggressive build and a defensinve one. 

I think he will be quite decent. 

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In my opinion the role of tank is: 

1. Take the hits for your team

2. Do this for as long as possible. 

 

I think Onars has the possibility to do both

 

You'll have to explain that one...

 

Stormtrooper squad shooting Onar will probably do 10 damage.  To black die defense hero they'll probably do 6.

 

Later in the campaign when Heroes get bonus health, Onar looks like he may be in the running for the most fragile hero!!!

 

And since the healing he receives from outside sources like MHD-19 or Gideon's Rallying Cry or medpacks etc. isn't boosted, but the damage he receives effectively is... he's HORRIBLE to try to keep alive, he takes an entire emergency med kit in extra damage from 1 trooper squad, what a huge waste.

 

 

Interesting... to Onar they do 10, to a black defense hero 6...

 

Onar has 20 HP, a black die hero probably has 12. 12/6 = 20/10. Go figure :D

 

Add to that the fact that he can't receive harmful conditions, gets 1.5 Rests for the price of one, and has abilities increase his defenses (not to mention HP), and he actually starts to look pretty reasonable in my opinion...

 

 

The extra 2 from a rest doesn't cover the extra damage he takes and the limit of one rest means he can't recover as much either.  Him not taking conditions isn't doing anything to stop him from being wounded out faster than everyone else.  Yes, he has 1 ability to MAYBE give him a single block... AND a bunch that wound him.  As I said, later in the campaign, he's going to be the most fragile character on the board.  No, he does not start to look reasonable, nothing you've pointed out supports him looking reasonable.  He's garbage unless the stuff not previewed really pulls him back.

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In my opinion the role of tank is: 

1. Take the hits for your team

2. Do this for as long as possible. 

 

I think Onars has the possibility to do both

 

You'll have to explain that one...

 

Stormtrooper squad shooting Onar will probably do 10 damage.  To black die defense hero they'll probably do 6.

 

Later in the campaign when Heroes get bonus health, Onar looks like he may be in the running for the most fragile hero!!!

 

And since the healing he receives from outside sources like MHD-19 or Gideon's Rallying Cry or medpacks etc. isn't boosted, but the damage he receives effectively is... he's HORRIBLE to try to keep alive, he takes an entire emergency med kit in extra damage from 1 trooper squad, what a huge waste.

 

 

Interesting... to Onar they do 10, to a black defense hero 6...

 

Onar has 20 HP, a black die hero probably has 12. 12/6 = 20/10. Go figure :D

 

Add to that the fact that he can't receive harmful conditions, gets 1.5 Rests for the price of one, and has abilities increase his defenses (not to mention HP), and he actually starts to look pretty reasonable in my opinion...

 

 

The extra 2 from a rest doesn't cover the extra damage he takes and the limit of one rest means he can't recover as much either.  Him not taking conditions isn't doing anything to stop him from being wounded out faster than everyone else.  Yes, he has 1 ability to MAYBE give him a single block... AND a bunch that wound him.  As I said, later in the campaign, he's going to be the most fragile character on the board.  No, he does not start to look reasonable, nothing you've pointed out supports him looking reasonable.  He's garbage unless the stuff not previewed really pulls him back.

 

He's pretty fragile, sure.  However, I can't imagine what a pain he's gonna be in a game with 2 heroes.  That extra 10 health from Legendary is gonna make this guy a bullet sponge, even without blocking capabilities.  That's 60 hits to make him withdraw.

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In my opinion the role of tank is: 

1. Take the hits for your team

2. Do this for as long as possible. 

 

I think Onars has the possibility to do both

 

You'll have to explain that one...

 

Stormtrooper squad shooting Onar will probably do 10 damage.  To black die defense hero they'll probably do 6.

 

Later in the campaign when Heroes get bonus health, Onar looks like he may be in the running for the most fragile hero!!!

 

And since the healing he receives from outside sources like MHD-19 or Gideon's Rallying Cry or medpacks etc. isn't boosted, but the damage he receives effectively is... he's HORRIBLE to try to keep alive, he takes an entire emergency med kit in extra damage from 1 trooper squad, what a huge waste.

 

 

Interesting... to Onar they do 10, to a black defense hero 6...

 

Onar has 20 HP, a black die hero probably has 12. 12/6 = 20/10. Go figure :D

 

Add to that the fact that he can't receive harmful conditions, gets 1.5 Rests for the price of one, and has abilities increase his defenses (not to mention HP), and he actually starts to look pretty reasonable in my opinion...

 

 

The extra 2 from a rest doesn't cover the extra damage he takes and the limit of one rest means he can't recover as much either.  Him not taking conditions isn't doing anything to stop him from being wounded out faster than everyone else.  Yes, he has 1 ability to MAYBE give him a single block... AND a bunch that wound him.  As I said, later in the campaign, he's going to be the most fragile character on the board.  No, he does not start to look reasonable, nothing you've pointed out supports him looking reasonable.  He's garbage unless the stuff not previewed really pulls him back.

 

He's pretty fragile, sure.  However, I can't imagine what a pain he's gonna be in a game with 2 heroes.  That extra 10 health from Legendary is gonna make this guy a bullet sponge, even without blocking capabilities.  That's 60 hits to make him withdraw.

 

I'm very confused about your definition of fragile.

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He's pretty fragile, sure.  However, I can't imagine what a pain he's gonna be in a game with 2 heroes.  That extra 10 health from Legendary is gonna make this guy a bullet sponge, even without blocking capabilities.  That's 60 hits to make him withdraw.

 

I think it is well known those extra 10HP from playing with only 2 heroes are known to break some missions

I never play with less than 4 Rebel heroes, no matter the actual Rebel player count, and I highly doubt it's a factor of consideration when they designed Onar

Also in most cases I (the Empire) have absolutely no incentive to make someone withdraw...I could wound Rebel #2 with the same firepower to kill off Rebel #1, and in most of the missions "All Rebel heroes wounded" is an auto-win for Empire

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He's reminds me of the decimator in xwing. While the lack of defense makes it look fragile, it's still a lot of health to chew through. The nice thing is that it is not subject to the whims of the dice. I do wonder if they will add some heavy armor that he can wear that's limited to, say, heroes with a yellow dice in the strength. That would explain why Shyla has three dice but no yellow dice for her strength attribute

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In my opinion the role of tank is: 

1. Take the hits for your team

2. Do this for as long as possible. 

 

I think Onars has the possibility to do both

 

You'll have to explain that one...

 

Stormtrooper squad shooting Onar will probably do 10 damage.  To black die defense hero they'll probably do 6.

 

Later in the campaign when Heroes get bonus health, Onar looks like he may be in the running for the most fragile hero!!!

 

And since the healing he receives from outside sources like MHD-19 or Gideon's Rallying Cry or medpacks etc. isn't boosted, but the damage he receives effectively is... he's HORRIBLE to try to keep alive, he takes an entire emergency med kit in extra damage from 1 trooper squad, what a huge waste.

 

 

Interesting... to Onar they do 10, to a black defense hero 6...

 

Onar has 20 HP, a black die hero probably has 12. 12/6 = 20/10. Go figure :D

 

Add to that the fact that he can't receive harmful conditions, gets 1.5 Rests for the price of one, and has abilities increase his defenses (not to mention HP), and he actually starts to look pretty reasonable in my opinion...

 

 

The extra 2 from a rest doesn't cover the extra damage he takes and the limit of one rest means he can't recover as much either.  Him not taking conditions isn't doing anything to stop him from being wounded out faster than everyone else.  Yes, he has 1 ability to MAYBE give him a single block... AND a bunch that wound him.  As I said, later in the campaign, he's going to be the most fragile character on the board.  No, he does not start to look reasonable, nothing you've pointed out supports him looking reasonable.  He's garbage unless the stuff not previewed really pulls him back.

 

He's pretty fragile, sure.  However, I can't imagine what a pain he's gonna be in a game with 2 heroes.  That extra 10 health from Legendary is gonna make this guy a bullet sponge, even without blocking capabilities.  That's 60 hits to make him withdraw.

 

 

You've got it backwards... He's going to be FAR weaker in Legendary than other heroes.  +10 HP on him with no block is equivalent to +16 HP on someone with a black die.

 

Onar with Legendary +2 health abililty +laminate = 35 HP.  That is 3.6 regular trooper squad activations.

Fenn with Legenary +3 healty ability +laminate = 28 HP + black die.  That is almost 5 regular trooper squad activations.

 

Fenn is 40% tougher than Onarr... and that is BEFORE you start factoring in things line Lone Wolf, healing from surges and Fenn's other defensive abilities.

 

Onar is more fragile than Jyn in Legendary... yup.  He's the just awful.  As I've said over and over, he HAS to flip to a better card to make you not want to wound him, otherwise he's far too fragile to ever want to use him.

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In my opinion the role of tank is: 

1. Take the hits for your team

2. Do this for as long as possible. 

 

I think Onars has the possibility to do both

 

You'll have to explain that one...

 

Stormtrooper squad shooting Onar will probably do 10 damage.  To black die defense hero they'll probably do 6.

 

Later in the campaign when Heroes get bonus health, Onar looks like he may be in the running for the most fragile hero!!!

 

And since the healing he receives from outside sources like MHD-19 or Gideon's Rallying Cry or medpacks etc. isn't boosted, but the damage he receives effectively is... he's HORRIBLE to try to keep alive, he takes an entire emergency med kit in extra damage from 1 trooper squad, what a huge waste.

 

If Onar is played as a bodyguard, with the 2XP "Stay Behind Me", in your scenario the black die hero gets 3 damage and Onar gets 3. Think I'll wait to see how he plays.

If we had read all the bad reviews about Loku we would never played him and he's turned out to be quite useful.

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If Onar is played as a bodyguard, with the 2XP "Stay Behind Me", in your scenario the black die hero gets 3 damage and Onar gets 3. Think I'll wait to see how he plays.

If we had read all the bad reviews about Loku we would never played him and he's turned out to be quite useful.

 

 

Why would you shoot the other hero instead of Onar?  Onar is more fragile than the other hero, wound him out first...  This is the whole point of "Onar is not a tank, adding a weaker link doesn't fix the party's weak link."  Stay Behind Me is garbage.  It needs to have a range of 3, it needs to work when he's wounded, and he needs to not be a defenseless delicate little flower.  Otherwise every other strain removal, damage mitigation or healing ability in the game that I can think of is better than this.

 

Picking any other hero, or even not picking one at all and playing with 3 instead, will all be more useful than Loku.  Loku is only useful in comparison to a hero spending both actions to run in circles doing nothing.

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If Onar is played as a bodyguard, with the 2XP "Stay Behind Me", in your scenario the black die hero gets 3 damage and Onar gets 3. Think I'll wait to see how he plays.

If we had read all the bad reviews about Loku we would never played him and he's turned out to be quite useful.

 

Why would you shoot the other hero instead of Onar?  Onar is more fragile than the other hero, wound him out first...  This is the whole point of "Onar is not a tank, adding a weaker link doesn't fix the party's weak link."  Stay Behind Me is garbage.  It needs to have a range of 3, it needs to work when he's wounded, and he needs to not be a defenseless delicate little flower.  Otherwise every other strain removal, damage mitigation or healing ability in the game that I can think of is better than this.

 

Picking any other hero, or even not picking one at all and playing with 3 instead, will all be more useful than Loku.  Loku is only useful in comparison to a hero spending both actions to run in circles doing nothing.

This is why the game should be played instead of theorized. Good positioning could force not shooting Onar. Good play can make Loku useful.

If all we do is play the same 4 "best" heros, then why play?

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Loku is potent in our game, but its because the players work together. Loku takes pot shots from a distance, but his strength is his recon tokens, +1 damage to a figure from any attack.

My group also has Saska for her gadgets, and otherwise she runs around completing objectives. But the gadgets are useful to the other heroes.

Diala with her re-rolls and dancing weapon and battle meditation.

And finally Verena, the one that does the most damage to everything, and uses the advantages the other heroes provide. That +1 from recon tokens already helps to guarantee the figure will be defeated, and she can move on to somebody else.

No particular hero is that much stronger than anybody else, what they excel at is usually to balance with somebody else. What will cause problems is a bad combo. If you think Loku will be awesome on his own, wrong, he's more support.

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This is why the game should be played instead of theorized. Good positioning could force not shooting Onar. Good play can make Loku useful.

If all we do is play the same 4 "best" heros, then why play?

 

 

Ideally we should have 16 "best" heroes.  At worst we should have some number of best heroes and the rest being worthwhile heroes.  Right now Onar is looking like Loku, team ruining, fun ruining.

 

It's pretty anti-fun for the Imperial player who doesn't get to play the game because the Rebels picked complete garbage and he has to work at not stomping the Rebels and occasionally throw some missions rather than have fun trying to win.

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This is why the game should be played instead of theorized. Good positioning could force not shooting Onar. Good play can make Loku useful.

If all we do is play the same 4 "best" heros, then why play?

 

Ideally we should have 16 "best" heroes.  At worst we should have some number of best heroes and the rest being worthwhile heroes.  Right now Onar is looking like Loku, team ruining, fun ruining.

 

It's pretty anti-fun for the Imperial player who doesn't get to play the game because the Rebels picked complete garbage and he has to work at not stomping the Rebels and occasionally throw some missions rather than have fun trying to win.

Ah! This would explain much. I'm the Imperial player and I see my role as GM rather then a win/lose player. My goal is to make it as difficult as possible without totally crushing the Rebels. It's been fun. Imps have won two out of seven games and two others have gone to the wire. I also try to stay thematic.(No Royal Guards or Nexu in the snow!)

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