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Kanawolf

Best EPT on Vader?

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Shees, I hadn´t looked at the Tie Advanced dial for awhile, only 4 greens! The Tie Advanced Prototype has 7 greens in comparison, Tie f/o has 6. The Advanced dial really does suck. I know Vader isn´t supposed to get stressed but stress dealers are coming back so it´s something that has to be considered. I guess the mk2 mod could come into play but that´s another point spent and takes the EU spot.

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Lightning Reflexes - Although it stresses vader, making him predictable the following round - this card serves two purposes - in early game it's psychological warfare, in late game, it's a super strong positioning tool on the tie advanced, which does not have the best of dials. 

Since you'll have the ATC target lock already - it's not terrible to not have actions for the turn you come around - since Vader does have a tendancy to use a k-turn, and at the high P.S. 9 you have pretty full information of when you are using this card.

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VI

Predator

Lone Wolf.

With VI you will always have times you wished you could reroll your dice without sacrificing ATC as you only chip away.

With Predator you will always wish you were moving last when someone dodges you, gets you in arc and hammers you.

At least with VI your still alive and you did t need an itiative bid. Turrets suck but the rest of your list needs to be able to step in and do the lifting there.

Lone Wolf I discount because as good as it is, Im not always on good enough for to keep it triggered. You have to be very confident in your ability to take it but I've seen it do amazing things in the right hands.

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Sounds good in theory, but isn't so.  Firstly, 1v1, VI vader will beat LW Vader because VI can always control the duel and LW has to guess both movements and best actions.  Also due to higher PS, the reactive uses of Boost will also VI vader to gain angle advantage over LW Vader. 

I'd admit that turrets are a pain for VI Vader, which you tend to mitigate at Tier1 with Palpatine and Soontir... Thus, its not really a weakness of the LIST, but rather of Vader himself.  

But another look will also see that the PS9 large turrets are the most worrisome:  Dengar and Han.  Both of which can then arc dodge you with their built in initiative bids in Dengaroo and Han/Jake.  Thus they will wear LW Vader down.  That also assumes you can fly LW well enough to gain advantage from you, as it highly restricts your chioces of focus fire.  Let's not even talk about the VI RAC PS10 list that someone already brought up just a few posts ago that would totally arc dodge your Vader and chunk it over and over and over until you're dead! 

 

If you do take LW Vader, you can probably choose not to take Palpatine.  But you're becoming more and more distinctly an awkward Tier2 list.  Also, if you don't have the initiative bid, Palp Soontir Vader will be able to move BOTH Soontir and Vader after your Vader.  Guess what:  You're dead.  

 

Here's the other crazy thing.  VI is always the right choice.  Why?  You get used to playing and seeing the board form the last movement position.  During tournaments you dont have to continually shift and remember if you're going first or last in an aces match.  This type of consistency is the mark of an experienced tournament winner who wants to remove material that he needs to think about over 3 to 6 matches.  

 

Your assumptions are just completely incorrect.  And I'm not talking theory----I use LW on Vader ALL the time!  Absolutely my favourite ship.

 

Lets look at your assumptions:

-VI vader controls the engagement.  Nope.  VI Vader = 35 pts and LW Vader = 36 points.  If the game goes to time, LW Vader wins.  Therefore VI Vader has to destroy LW Vader to win.  LW Vader can afford to make safe plays, but VI Vader cannot.  Any situation where you think you might not get a shot, you make sure VI Vader can't also get a shot, or else you turtle up (and make sure R1 is not possible).  You effectively have soontir levels of durability with LW (4 green + F + E) vs 2 reds + crit + F.  That's not good odds of getting any damage through.  Also, you have total control over R1 dice trades: LW + F + E provides far better damage trades (especially since you shoot first so you know whether you need the F or not) vs VI Vader, so therefore, VI Vader is taking a big risk in R1 dice trades.  So knowing that, the LW Vader has a LOT of control over how the engagement plays out.

 

-VI Vader can arc-dodge easily.  Not true!  I'm just going to say it: arc-dodging only happens when you fail to visualize your opponents potential moves and let him get out of your arc.  Its a matter of developing your visualization skills and practicing at the game.  LW Vader has the tools to deny arc-dodging by another ace with BR + Boost.  And since you move first, you actually control the engagement-----any time your opponent has the potential to arc-dodge you and you can't stop it, you just block their move and use your next turn to jockey for better dice trades (after all, you have the advantage in dice trades and you win on time, so you can afford to let the game play out!).  So yeah, all things being equal in this hypothetical matchup, LW provides a greater edge.

 

-LW Vader gets arc-dodged by Dengar, Han, Jake, etc.  Again, not true at all!  Even if we assume they have a better initiative bid (which is an odd assumption, but ok).  They ships are easy to keep in arc.  A zuckuss dengar has no access to BR.  A PTL Dengar can be troublesome, but Vader just has to avoid range 1 exchanges, and then its actually really unlikely for Dengar to push any damage through Vader's F+E+LW.  And even if it happens on a bad roll, Vader has 2 shields.  Meanwhile, Vader's offense pushes through Dengar's defense consistently.  And Han should not be arc-dodging Vader with access to only boost.  Again, that's a failure on the Vader's part to predict Han's potential moves.  And really, its a mistake on the Imperial player's part to leave Han for last in a Jake+Han vs Vader matchup.  Han needs to die first, so it should not be a 1v1 with vader against Han.  Jake, even with prockets and moving last, should be unable to harm Vader if played correctly.  Again, LW Vader beats Jake on points at time, so can make the safe plays. 

 

-LW Vader doesn't take Palp.  Why not?  You don't have to, but you can.  I run Deci w/ palp + LW Vader, and its absolutely top tier.  great list.  I have zero issues beating Palp aces or Dengaroo.  Torpedo Scouts is tough, but winnable.  TLT y-wings is the only bad matchup.

 

-VI is not ALWAYS the right call.  Its absolutely useless for example in a meta where no one is pushing higher than PS9.  A complete waste of 1 point in fact.  VI does not provide consistency.  LW does in the form of superior dice mods.  All VI does is let you move last.  Experienced tournament players shouldn't need that kind of help because they are experienced and should have developed good visualization/prediction skills (in my humble opinion).  LW helps you much more in removing 'material' much faster and giving you a damage lead AND helps to keep Vader alive (ships on the table win games....VI Vader has a tough time surviving to endgame).  So yeah, its no contest in my opinion----LW provides far greater advantages generally speaking, imho. 

Edited by blade_mercurial

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I'll also vote for predator. Sure vi Vader is cheaper and gets to move at ps 11 but unless you're crazy lucky he hits like a chump and has to spend so many actions on arc dodging he's just not as strong since arc dodging is his only strength so he has to do it. Predator Vader certainly has weaknesses in that he can lose a ps battle but he hits like a monster so it doesn't really matter because he's just a wrecking ball. The idea of just constantly arc dodging everything is great in theory but in practice it's much more worthwhile to just blast everything you set your arc on into a million pieces.

Edited by nigeltastic

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