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Luckmann

Allowing starting items to be traded - potential repercussions?

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There's a rule against players trading their starting gear. They can sell each piece of starting gear for 50 gold, but they can't give it to another hero. This is something that's always annoyed me for largely irrational reasons, because I can see why such a rule exist. If nothing else, it allows the starting gear to practically be considered an intrinsic part of the class, and helps designing around a concept without regard for potential repercussions that would arise from trading said items.

 

But as a thought-experiment, let's consider the repercussions of allowing the trading of starting gear, such as a Lindel Bard trading his Lute to a Steelhorns Berserker.

Anything that immediately comes to mind?

One of the few "issues" I can think of would involve a Lindel Monk being traded the Sage's Tome from a Prophet, resulting in the stacking of Lindel's Attributes (all 3's) Hero Ability (Two grey dies instead of black+grey for Attribute Tests), the Monk's Inner Balance (+1 to all Attributes), and the ability of Sage's Tome (subtract 1 from the attribute test). But not only can Lindel already do this if he chose to be a Monk-Prophet, but it would also necessitate the group having two healers; and with +1 Awareness, Lindel as a Prophet himself would be even better.

Another one that could potentially be considered an issue (that I can think of) would be situations such as the Horn of Courage, of the Champion. It allows you to choose another hero within 3 spaces of you and give them a valor token. But this is a free action anyway, exhausting the card, so I can't imagine that it'd be a genuine issue that some other hero can give another hero a valor token, whether they're the champion or not.

 

I can't think of that many genuine, major issues.

Anything that comes to mind?

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I ran into a situation where trading starting equipment would have helped us.  I have Syndrael as a Berserker, and had purchased Weapon Mastery.  We won the Dawnblade, but there just aren't many single handed melee weapons to combine with it to meet the requirements for Weapon Mastery.  If I could have "borrowed" the Disciple's Iron Mace, then it would have worked.  Luckily we drew a treasure chest and got the Grinding Axe, which is just as good if not better than the Dawnblade anyway.  

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I think the main restriction against it comes specifically because of cases like the horn of courage. The exhaust/pass/refresh trick that can be done with mana weave or the like gets really out of hand with class items. Instead of 1 free valor per hero per round, you could have 3. More importantly, the champion isn't supposed to be able to gain valor himself without killing something. If another hero had the horn, he'd get valor way too easily (imagine valorous strike getting 3 damage on it per round- without the need for any monsters to be killed, no less).

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Hmmm isn't it that starting gear is essentially a class card, and class cards are yours only and cannot be traded?

Even in the extreme case where two heroes with the same class are present (assuming multiple sets of the class available), they would still not be able to stack two copies of the same trinket on the same hero.

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Hmmm isn't it that starting gear is essentially a class card, and class cards are yours only and cannot be traded?

Even in the extreme case where two heroes with the same class are present (assuming multiple sets of the class available), they would still not be able to stack two copies of the same trinket on the same hero.

I'm not aware of an explicit rule against duplicate equipment, though I'm pretty certain there is against duplicate classes. Luckmann acknowledged the current rule about not trading class equipment, but suggested exploring the consequences IF it were allowed. Edited by Zaltyre

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I believe its 25 gold by the way

 

You believe correctly, I have no idea where I got 50 from.

 

Hmmm isn't it that starting gear is essentially a class card, and class cards are yours only and cannot be traded?

Even in the extreme case where two heroes with the same class are present (assuming multiple sets of the class available), they would still not be able to stack two copies of the same trinket on the same hero.

I'm not aware of an explicit rule against duplicate equipment, though I'm pretty certain there is against duplicate classes. Luckmann acknowledged the current rule about not trading class equipment, but suggested exploring the consequences IF it were allowed.

Huh, I never considered that issue, really. Makes me wonder if there actually is such a restriction. I remember way, way back when, just when I started to play, I was looking specifically for anything restricting two players from taking the same archetype, but I couldn't find anything restricting it (as I now know, there is no such rule) but I don't remember finding anything on restriction of multiple classes.

Only thing I could thing for as an argument is limit by supply. The game just assumes that there's only one of each class available.

 

Perfect example of something that hadn't even begin to occur to me. That being said, I can't imagine that this would be much of an issue. Theoretically, with more classes down the road (if any), but if you think about it, with the case of the Lucky Charm, well, the Thief could already potentially get two of those, and who'd want two wooden shields?

I think the main restriction against it comes specifically because of cases like the horn of courage. The exhaust/pass/refresh trick that can be done with mana weave or the like gets really out of hand with class items. Instead of 1 free valor per hero per round, you could have 3. More importantly, the champion isn't supposed to be able to gain valor himself without killing something. If another hero had the horn, he'd get valor way too easily (imagine valorous strike getting 3 damage on it per round- without the need for any monsters to be killed, no less).

I'll admit, this is potentially a genuine issue. Not having played with the Champion (I still don't have Lair of the Wyrm) it's not something that would've occurred to me, either.

Edited by Luckmann

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I guess that being able get a second shield might be beneficial for the steelcaster as well. You could just buy a 2H weapon for a disciple and can give the shield to the steelcaster. I guess it's not an enormously big deal (for standard items like weapons and shields), but it just makes things easier for the heroes, especially at the start. This gives rise to the question: do the heroes need and additional advantage? And, as Zaltyre pointed out: If the starting gear interacts with the skills of a class, this could get out of hand.

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There is one more issue - some really good classes start with quite bad (someitmes terrible) starting weapons that is a part of balance (weapons for Skirmisher, Apothecary, Necromancer, etc.).

And this moment makes game for heroes a bit harder.

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