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Bludgeon

Living Doll in the Cursed Glade

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An interesting question came up during yesterday's game.

 

Living Doll

Card TypeMagic Object

You must take the Doll and ditch all of your other Objects. You may have no other Objects until you visit the Alchemist in the City and discard this Object to gain a gold.

 

Cursed Glade

"Draw 2 Cards"
If there are any cards already in this space, draw only enough to take the total to two cards.
You cannot use ObjectsFollowers and Spells while on this space.

 

Since you cannot use objects, does the doll work there? Can you pick another object while on Cursed Glade and use it? A potion for example.

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1) Looking at the FAQ 1.1 entry for Bag of Holding, the FAQ answer implies that both passive effects and active effects are considered "use" of the Object. Extrapolating from this example, the text of the Living Doll is not active if you have encountered the Cursed Glade space. You would be free to take any Object encountered on the space, but once you completed a move to any other space, you would be forced to ditch the Object(s). However, as you cannot "use" the Living Doll there, which invalidates it's passive effect text, you could choose to ditch the doll on the Cursed Glade. (I have a feeling this last point will be controversial :P )

 

2) No, you cannot use any Objects on the Cursed Glade, whether you gained it while on the space or otherwise, as the text clearly disallows this.

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1) Looking at the FAQ 1.1 entry for Bag of Holding, the FAQ answer implies that both passive effects and active effects are considered "use" of the Object. Extrapolating from this example, the text of the Living Doll is not active if you have encountered the Cursed Glade space. You would be free to take any Object encountered on the space, but once you completed a move to any other space, you would be forced to ditch the Object(s). However, as you cannot "use" the Living Doll there, which invalidates it's passive effect text, you could choose to ditch the doll on the Cursed Glade. (I have a feeling this last point will be controversial :P )

 

2) No, you cannot use any Objects on the Cursed Glade, whether you gained it while on the space or otherwise, as the text clearly disallows this.

1. Didn't think about ditching it - that means you can ditch any kinds of objects and followers in CG as nothing works there.

And even if it didn't work, doesn't matter much since Chasm is only 2 spaces away.

 

2. Yes , lapse of logic on my part :P But the question still makes sense on the old board.

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An interesting question came up during yesterday's game.

 

Living Doll

Card TypeMagic Object

You must take the Doll and ditch all of your other Objects. You may have no other Objects until you visit the Alchemist in the City and discard this Object to gain a gold.

 

Cursed Glade

"Draw 2 Cards"

If there are any cards already in this space, draw only enough to take the total to two cards.

You cannot use ObjectsFollowers and Spells while on this space.

 

Since you cannot use objects, does the doll work there? Can you pick another object while on Cursed Glade and use it? A potion for example.

 

The Living Doll prohibits you from having any other Objects; it is an instruction that must be followed. It is not a Magic Object that a character uses! Therefore you cannot take any Objects while on the Cursed Glade.

Edited by talismanamsilat

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An interesting question came up during yesterday's game.

 

Living Doll

Card TypeMagic Object

You must take the Doll and ditch all of your other Objects. You may have no other Objects until you visit the Alchemist in the City and discard this Object to gain a gold.

 

Cursed Glade

"Draw 2 Cards"

If there are any cards already in this space, draw only enough to take the total to two cards.

You cannot use ObjectsFollowers and Spells while on this space.

 

Since you cannot use objects, does the doll work there? Can you pick another object while on Cursed Glade and use it? A potion for example.

 

The Living Doll prohibits you from having any other Objects; it is an instruction that must be followed. It is not a Magic Object that a character uses! Therefore you cannot take any Objects while on the Cursed Glade.

 

Look at the 2nd post of this thread.

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An interesting question came up during yesterday's game.

 

Living Doll

Card TypeMagic Object

You must take the Doll and ditch all of your other Objects. You may have no other Objects until you visit the Alchemist in the City and discard this Object to gain a gold.

 

Cursed Glade

"Draw 2 Cards"

If there are any cards already in this space, draw only enough to take the total to two cards.

You cannot use ObjectsFollowers and Spells while on this space.

 

Since you cannot use objects, does the doll work there? Can you pick another object while on Cursed Glade and use it? A potion for example.

 

The Living Doll prohibits you from having any other Objects; it is an instruction that must be followed. It is not a Magic Object that a character uses! Therefore you cannot take any Objects while on the Cursed Glade.

 

 

Ell, it's the Cataclysm Cursed Glade, not the original.

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1) Looking at the FAQ 1.1 entry for Bag of Holding, the FAQ answer implies that both passive effects and active effects are considered "use" of the Object. Extrapolating from this example, the text of the Living Doll is not active if you have encountered the Cursed Glade space. You would be free to take any Object encountered on the space, but once you completed a move to any other space, you would be forced to ditch the Object(s). However, as you cannot "use" the Living Doll there, which invalidates it's passive effect text, you could choose to ditch the doll on the Cursed Glade. (I have a feeling this last point will be controversial :P )

 

2) No, you cannot use any Objects on the Cursed Glade, whether you gained it while on the space or otherwise, as the text clearly disallows this.

Yep that last point sounds controversial.I'm trying to understand this:

 

FAQ entry Bag of Holding

Q: If a character with the Bag of Holding cannot use Magic

Objects, such as being targeted by the Destroy Magic Spell

or encountering the Cursed Glade space, does he lose any

Objects that are inside the Bag?

A: Any surplus Objects that the character cannot carry must

be ditched in his space. The character chooses which of his

Objects are ditched, if any.

 

How does that factor into the Living Doll at the Cataclysm Cursed Glades? What the entry of Bag of Holding is saying is that when you are on the Cataclysm Cursed Glades your using the Bag thus you must take the object therein out (because you can't use it). But with Living Doll you never use it.

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1) Looking at the FAQ 1.1 entry for Bag of Holding, the FAQ answer implies that both passive effects and active effects are considered "use" of the Object. Extrapolating from this example, the text of the Living Doll is not active if you have encountered the Cursed Glade space. You would be free to take any Object encountered on the space, but once you completed a move to any other space, you would be forced to ditch the Object(s). However, as you cannot "use" the Living Doll there, which invalidates it's passive effect text, you could choose to ditch the doll on the Cursed Glade. (I have a feeling this last point will be controversial :P )

 

2) No, you cannot use any Objects on the Cursed Glade, whether you gained it while on the space or otherwise, as the text clearly disallows this.

Yep that last point sounds controversial.I'm trying to understand this:

 

FAQ entry Bag of Holding

Q: If a character with the Bag of Holding cannot use Magic

Objects, such as being targeted by the Destroy Magic Spell

or encountering the Cursed Glade space, does he lose any

Objects that are inside the Bag?

A: Any surplus Objects that the character cannot carry must

be ditched in his space. The character chooses which of his

Objects are ditched, if any.

 

How does that factor into the Living Doll at the Cataclysm Cursed Glades? What the entry of Bag of Holding is saying is that when you are on the Cataclysm Cursed Glades your using the Bag thus you must take the object therein out (because you can't use it). But with Living Doll you never use it.

 

I think the line of thought is this:

If bag of holding (which is passive static effect) was functional in the cursed glade, the answer wouldn't be what it is but instead it would be something like "don't worry, BoH still works in the cursed glade"

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1) Looking at the FAQ 1.1 entry for Bag of Holding, the FAQ answer implies that both passive effects and active effects are considered "use" of the Object. Extrapolating from this example, the text of the Living Doll is not active if you have encountered the Cursed Glade space. You would be free to take any Object encountered on the space, but once you completed a move to any other space, you would be forced to ditch the Object(s). However, as you cannot "use" the Living Doll there, which invalidates it's passive effect text, you could choose to ditch the doll on the Cursed Glade. (I have a feeling this last point will be controversial :P )

 

2) No, you cannot use any Objects on the Cursed Glade, whether you gained it while on the space or otherwise, as the text clearly disallows this.

Yep that last point sounds controversial.I'm trying to understand this:

 

FAQ entry Bag of Holding

Q: If a character with the Bag of Holding cannot use Magic

Objects, such as being targeted by the Destroy Magic Spell

or encountering the Cursed Glade space, does he lose any

Objects that are inside the Bag?

A: Any surplus Objects that the character cannot carry must

be ditched in his space. The character chooses which of his

Objects are ditched, if any.

 

How does that factor into the Living Doll at the Cataclysm Cursed Glades? What the entry of Bag of Holding is saying is that when you are on the Cataclysm Cursed Glades your using the Bag thus you must take the object therein out (because you can't use it). But with Living Doll you never use it.

 

I think the line of thought is this:

If bag of holding (which is passive static effect) was functional in the cursed glade, the answer wouldn't be what it is but instead it would be something like "don't worry, BoH still works in the cursed glade"

 

But the Bag of Holding is not a passive static effect because you're using it to store objects. Using an object is the same as when you use an object in other words. But objects that you do not use still have an effect in the Cataclysm Cursed Glades.

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But the Bag of Holding is not a passive static effect because you're using it to store objects. Using an object is the same as when you use an object in other words. But objects that you do not use still have an effect in the Cataclysm Cursed Glades.

 

 

To me it's a static effect. You are not activating it instead it does what it does whenever conditions are right.

Edited by Bludgeon

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But the Bag of Holding is not a passive static effect because you're using it to store objects. Using an object is the same as when you use an object in other words. But objects that you do not use still have an effect in the Cataclysm Cursed Glades.

 

 

To me it's a static effect. You are not activating it instead it does what it does whenever conditions are right.

 

But its not about activating or not activating its about using or not using,

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@ Uvatha - I see where you are coming from, but using your own definitions you are using the living doll to ditch all of your other Objects, and you are using the living doll to prevent yourself from having other Objects until you discard it at the Alchemist. Since any form of use is prevented by the Cursed Glade space, all of that text is ignored there.

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@ Uvatha - I see where you are coming from, but using your own definitions you are using the living doll to ditch all of your other Objects, and you are using the living doll to prevent yourself from having other Objects until you discard it at the Alchemist. Since any form of use is prevented by the Cursed Glade space, all of that text is ignored there.

No personal definition at all sanityismyvanity. Let me explain:

 

You are not using the Living Doll. Using is a choice you have no choice. You're using the Bag of Holding if it has objects in it, you don't stop using it after you put objects in. That's why there're a FAQ entry players were saying "what happens" are you still using the Bag with objects stored inside or not and the answer is yes your still "using" it thus you must stop using it and drop the stored objects if you cannot carry them normally.

 

The Cursed Glades in the base game and the Cataclysm is the same in this regards both spaces say "you can't use Magic Objects here".

 

Base game Cursed Glades: "Draw 1 Card"

Do not draw a card if there is already one in this space.

Strength and Craft derived from Objects and Magic Objects do not count on this space, nor may you use Magic Objects or cast Spells.

 

Cataclysm Cursed Glades: "Draw 2 Cards"

If there are any cards already in this space, draw only enough to take the total to two cards.

You cannot use Objects, Followers, and Spells while in this space.

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In what way is the text of the Living Doll similar to the text of a Talisman?  That is, a Talisman is not an item you use.  It is simply an item that you possess.  And since the FAQ has already declared that spells such as "Destroy Magic" do not affect a Talisman, it would stand to reason that the same logic applied there would apply to the Living Doll as well.

 

That is to say, though both the Talisman and the Living Doll are Magic Objects, they are not objects that you use.  They are objects that simply create a condition for your character simply by virtue of possessing the object.  For the Talisman, that condition is that you may enter the Valley of Fire.  For the Living Doll, that condition is that you may not have any other objects until you visit the Alchemist.  There's no using of these objects.  They simply exist and create a condition.

 

The rub with this line of thinking, however, is that there are other Magic Objects that create conditions without you actually using them.  For example, you don't use Solomon's Crown, and yet you still get +2 craft.  You don't use the Wand, and yet you always have at least one spell.

 

Ultimately, this is one of the inconsistent rulings in Talisman.  (For the record, I disagree with the FAQ regarding Destroy Magic and the Talisman.)  The rulebook never really defines what it means to "use" an object.  In some cases it is clear that you are using an object, such as a sword in battle.  But other times, as with the examples of Solomon's Crown and the Wand, you never actually activate anything with them.  You never have to declare, "I am using Solomon's Crown to gain +2 craft."  You get the effects of Solomon's Crown simply because you possess it.

 

And so if Destroy Magic or the Cursed Glade negates those cards that you don't actually "use" in order to gain the effects printed on them, then Living Doll should also be negated (as should the Talisman!), as it is also a card that you don't actually "use" in order to gain its effects.

 

Therefore I am casting my lot on the side of being able to ditch the Living Doll at the Cursed Glade.

 

Here's a simple summary:

  • You don't use Solomon's Crown to gain +2 craft.
  • You don't use the Living Doll to lose all of your objects.
  • Solomon's Crown is negated by the Cursed Glade.
  • The Living Doll is also negated by the Cursed Glade.
  • This also applies to Destroy Magic and the Talisman.

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In what way is the text of the Living Doll similar to the text of a Talisman?  That is, a Talisman is not an item you use.  It is simply an item that you possess.  And since the FAQ has already declared that spells such as "Destroy Magic" do not affect a Talisman, it would stand to reason that the same logic applied there would apply to the Living Doll as well.

 

That is to say, though both the Talisman and the Living Doll are Magic Objects, they are not objects that you use.  They are objects that simply create a condition for your character simply by virtue of possessing the object.  For the Talisman, that condition is that you may enter the Valley of Fire.  For the Living Doll, that condition is that you may not have any other objects until you visit the Alchemist.  There's no using of these objects.  They simply exist and create a condition.

 

The rub with this line of thinking, however, is that there are other Magic Objects that create conditions without you actually using them.  For example, you don't use Solomon's Crown, and yet you still get +2 craft.  You don't use the Wand, and yet you always have at least one spell.

 

Ultimately, this is one of the inconsistent rulings in Talisman.  (For the record, I disagree with the FAQ regarding Destroy Magic and the Talisman.)  The rulebook never really defines what it means to "use" an object.  In some cases it is clear that you are using an object, such as a sword in battle.  But other times, as with the examples of Solomon's Crown and the Wand, you never actually activate anything with them.  You never have to declare, "I am using Solomon's Crown to gain +2 craft."  You get the effects of Solomon's Crown simply because you possess it.

 

And so if Destroy Magic or the Cursed Glade negates those cards that you don't actually "use" in order to gain the effects printed on them, then Living Doll should also be negated (as should the Talisman!), as it is also a card that you don't actually "use" in order to gain its effects.

 

Therefore I am casting my lot on the side of being able to ditch the Living Doll at the Cursed Glade.

 

Here's a simple summary:

  • You don't use Solomon's Crown to gain +2 craft.
  • You don't use the Living Doll to lose all of your objects.
  • Solomon's Crown is negated by the Cursed Glade.
  • The Living Doll is also negated by the Cursed Glade.
  • This also applies to Destroy Magic and the Talisman.

 

 

While I agree with much of your post, there is one thing I'd like to comment on re the destroy magic/Talisman FAQ ruling.

 

The reason this ruling exists is not because destroy magic prevents "using" the Magic Object Talisman, because it actually does, but because the Valley of Fire space states it requires you to possess an Object named Talisman to enter it. Whether or not it is currently functional makes no difference to the space, it only requires it carries that name, which destroy magic has no impact on. That is why the poorly explained FAQ entry for this causes much consternation despite being quite correct.

 

As far as these persistent/passive effects and when are you truly "using" them, the other major fly in the ointment is the Gremlin. For something like the living doll, do you just roll once and that result applies forever more? Or do you roll every time you attempt to try and pick up another Object? Same with Solomon's Crown, one roll or every time your inflated Craft is used? Situations like this make my brain hurt :wacko:

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(For the record, I disagree with the FAQ regarding Destroy Magic and the Talisman.)

That's totally cool. But because it's going "against the rules" you need to do a House Rule or at least let players know before game.

 

As far as these persistent/passive effects and when are you truly "using" them, the other major fly in the ointment is the Gremlin. For something like the living doll, do you just roll once and that result applies forever more? Or do you roll every time you attempt to try and pick up another Object? Same with Solomon's Crown, one roll or every time your inflated Craft is used? Situations like this make my brain hurt :wacko:

Right 'o"

 

Gremlin

 

You must take the Gremlin as a Follower. Whenever you try to use an Object you must first roll 1 die:

  1. Discard the Object and lose 1 life
  2. Discard the Object and lose 1 life
  3. The Object fails to work during this turn
  4. The Object fails to work during this turn
  5. The Object works and you may discard the Gremlin
  6. The Object works and you may discard the Gremlin

Easy it's "Whenever you try to use an Object" Once you tried then its effect happens until you "try" again. It's not whenever you use an object. And also picking up an Object is not using the Object,

Objects like the Living Doll do not roll with the gremlin because you do not use the Living Doll.

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Ultimately, this is one of the inconsistent rulings in Talisman.  (For the record, I disagree with the FAQ regarding Destroy Magic and the Talisman.)  The rulebook never really defines whatAs far as these persistent/passive effects and when are you truly "using" them, the other major fly in the ointment is the Gremlin. For something like the living doll, do you just roll once and that result applies forever more? Or do you roll every time you attempt to try and pick up another Object? Same with Solomon's Crown, one roll or every time your inflated Craft is used? Situations like this make my brain hurt :wacko:

 

The D.E. tidied this one up by having the Gemlin activate whenever you gain an object, not whenever you attempt to use an object.

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