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Vigil

The Empire is evil.

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Contrary to its claims of being unarmed, it was straight-up the leading supplier of munitions to the rebellion, pretty much the opposite of unarmed. 

In the novelization, yes - which also had multiple Emperors, of which Palpatine was only the first - and with the current Emperor being controlled by his advisors.

Safe to say that things changed.

 

 

"During this time, Alderaan became the Alliance's main source of munitions. The planet's crown princess and representative in the Imperial Senate, Princess Leia Organa[2], adoptive daughter of Bail and Breha Organa, began using her diplomatic immunity as an Imperial senator to carry out Rebel missions in restricted Imperial systems.[19] About three years before the Battle of Yavin, Senator Bail Organa dispatched three Hammerhead corvettes to the Phoenix rebel cell, which has sustained losses while fleeing Garel."

 

From Wookieepedia. I assume most of it is sourced via Rebels, which is fully canon.

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Is the 'speciesist' Empire canonical? Since the Empire inherited the GAR which was comprised of human clones it would naturally recruit humans and near humans to fill the roll of the aging clones. It would be pretty hard for an Ithorian or Wookiee to fit into phase 2 trooper armour and have difficulty with weapons designed for human hands. Galactic citizens being recruited for officers and technicians on ships and stations would also naturally gravitate to humans and near humans for a variety of reasons, the most important being the lack of desire for non-humans to leave their home worlds and have military careers in protected all the varied species of the Galaxy. Could a Trandoshen ISD Captain be seen as impartial when dealing with wookiees or other former slave races? There's a reason why scum and villainy is made up of less than reputable individuals from diverse species, these are the individuals that have left their homeworlds due to fleeing justice or were desperate to flee persecution and were left with no choice but to indulge in a life of crime to survive. Most aliens are perfectly content to leave the rest of the Galaxy to its own devices as long as the central representative government and their senators bring home the bacon to their constituents. Only when the senate is dissolved do we see a multitude of aliens joining forces against the empire.

Anyway, is the Empire evil? Yes. Says so right in the opening crawl of ANH. Is it 'racist'? Depends on if Diznee Canon says so.

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Oh and the Alderaan leadership supplying the Rebels with munitions and supplies doesn't excuse the Empire from destroying an entire population and valuable real estate. I'm sure the Insurance Consortiums (and their IC-U2 series 'claims adjuster' droids) had a time trying to weasel out of all those claims.

Edited by GrimmyV

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But if all you Rebels want to really understand why we Impies keep trying to make the Empire good, I'll give you my personal opinion. Godwin won't like it though.

 

 

It's a little like rooting for the Nazis. 

 

 

etcetc etc

 

 

 

 

So in short, we have to believe that there's something good in the Empire to root for, or else it would be hard to have fun playing them. Does a Stormtrooper think he's a bad guy?

 So very this,and props for posting it. This more eloquently has encapsulated all I've been trying to say for years regarding playing as the Empire than I have ever managed to get out.

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But if all you Rebels want to really understand why we Impies keep trying to make the Empire good, I'll give you my personal opinion. Godwin won't like it though.

 

 

It's a little like rooting for the Nazis. 

 

 

etcetc etc 

 

 

 

So in short, we have to believe that there's something good in the Empire to root for, or else it would be hard to have fun playing them. Does a Stormtrooper think he's a bad guy?

 So very this,and props for posting it. This more eloquently has encapsulated all I've been trying to say for years regarding playing as the Empire than I have ever managed to get out.

I guess not everyone has had the opportunity to defend the empire as an honorable and just starfighter pilot in TIE Fighter. Maarek Stele surely wasn't evil.

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(DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ENTIRELY SATIRICAL AND IN NO WAY SERIOUS)

The 3rd Reich is an extremely efficient government and is less corrupt then the governments before. We're only fighting for peace and stability on the planet, so everyone can enjoy our wonderful government. Our troops are fighting to liberate people from those Ally and Commie pigs, and we're here to restore peace and justice to the planet! Sure we killed a bunch of people, but they were peacefully protesting, while a few of the higher ups were radicalizing! No peaceful protests for the rich classes of our country! Anyone who opposes us are clearly terrorists, we're not trying to oppress anyone, we're trying to bring order to the planet!

</satire>

That's what people promoting the Empire sound like. I'm not attacking people who RP as imperials, I have no problem with that, but if you legitimately believe the Empire are the good guys.......

Also, to Grimmy: Speciesest Empire is still a thing. Misogynist Empire is not.

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The fact that this thread has not been locked just goes to show how lightly moderated this place is.

Can't agree with you more.  OTOH, this thread has been WAY more civil that a lot of other ones that are just about a miniatures game.

 

But if all you Rebels want to really understand why we Impies keep trying to make the Empire good, I'll give you my personal opinion. Godwin won't like it though.

 

 

It's a little like rooting for the Nazis. 

 

 

Downfall, Das Boot, Night of the Generals: there are plenty of films that have German WW2 protagonists that fight for the Nazis, even though they don't buy into the crazy ideology. There were plenty of German generals who didn't drink the cool-aid either, and continued to care about their own men and civilian casualties alike while, let's face it: fighting for the bad guys.

 

When I play Nazis in WW2 tabletop games, I can slot myself into the "You are bad guy, but not bad guy." area reserved for Nazis that weren't Nazis. Family men, strong women, and ingenious scientists all whom happen to be working for a psychopathic maniac. Then, I can enjoy the snappy uniforms, fancy tanks, and hi-tech fighters that were produced by those bad guys. 

 

If I win, it's a tragic victory for the heroic bad guys. If I lose, it's a tragic defeat where normally good men died in the name of an evil empire. I have fun either way.

 

 

Back in SPACE, the Empire are Space Nazis. Stormtroopers, cool uniforms, one-race policy, genocide, double parking - they have it all. They are the bad guys. The Rebels are American action heroes, British bomber pilots, and French resistance fighters IN SPACE. They are good guys. The problem is, for those of us playing as the Empire, that very little is shown of the personal lives of its generals and troops.

 

We know everything about the Rebellion heroes: favorite bars, favorite foods, preferred weapons, etc. We know little about the average Imperial captain, gunner, or pilot. And because we never see any bad guys working for the rebels it becomes hard to play as Inglorious Scum or Imperials with a Family. The Rebels we see are all good. The only good Imperials we see are defectors.

 

Because until recently the Rebellion was portrayed as incorruptible pure pureness, the only way to play the Empire with a good conscience was to make the system better than it was. 

 

So in short, we have to believe that there's something good in the Empire to root for, or else it would be hard to have fun playing them. Does a Stormtrooper think he's a bad guy?

Uh.  Not sure I can go there.  I like playing the Imp side of things, and I in no way can empathize with the Imperial socio-political mind set.  Nor can I pretend that a Sith-led Galactic Empire would have some warm and fuzzy side to it.  I play them because, yes I choose to, but also because my brother plays the Rebels and Rebels vs. Rebels is not the SW universe.  None of which requires me to justify/role play an Imperial mindset.

 

Empathizing with the evil Empire to play Imperials in this game is like saying that you empathize with darkness for playing the black pieces in chess.  It's just a side in a game.

 

It's like the old D&D argument that DMs are/would become Satanic devil-worshipping cultists because they could empathize with the Dark Arts.  Somebody has to be the "evil" DM, or there is no game.

 

In fact, my wife and I have a running joke that I lose because I'm playing for the wrong side.  To which my choice "justification" is simply that the Empire has cooler looking man-toys.  And, I suppose, I'm used to playing the mean ol' DM for the sake of playing the game.  (In truth, there were many times I got tired of DMing because I got tired of being the antagonist.  Luckily, with X-Wing, we just agree to bring alternate fleets the next session--although it means I'm rustier with the Rebel ships' abilities.)

Edited by Darth Meanie

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^^

There's a difference between enjoying using a certain faction, and saying they are in the right, even though they're not. People might like playing Germans in WW-2 games, or terrorists in games like Counter Strike, but that doesn't mean they should try to justify that their side is in the right.

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Maarek Stele was honourable enough. SO WERE MANY GERMAN FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD WARS. Some of which famously so.

 

The Nazi and Imperial Ideologies are clearly messed up. But that doesn't mean that the people fighting for them are.

 

 

To be honest, it is taking all of my limited restraint not to make parallels to current USA / Trumps vision of USA / USA in the post 9/11 middle eastern war period.

 

Everyone thinks that they are the good guy...

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Maarek Stele was honourable enough. SO WERE MANY GERMAN FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD WARS. Some of which famously so.

 

The Nazi and Imperial Ideologies are clearly messed up. But that doesn't mean that the people fighting for them are.

 

 

To be honest, it is taking all of my limited restraint not to make parallels to current USA / Trumps vision of USA / USA in the post 9/11 middle eastern war period.

 

Everyone thinks that they are the good guy...

Never said that there weren't good people in those countries, but to try and justify the existence, or the goodness of those regimes is ridiculous, unless it is specifically in a scenario where you are roleplaying someone who does. The USA has done some pretty bad stuff, but to try and draw parallels between it and the Empire/Nazi Germany is silly.

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But if all you Rebels want to really understand why we Impies keep trying to make the Empire good, I'll give you my personal opinion. Godwin won't like it though.

 

 

It's a little like rooting for the Nazis. 

 

 

etcetc etc

 

 

 

 

So in short, we have to believe that there's something good in the Empire to root for, or else it would be hard to have fun playing them. Does a Stormtrooper think he's a bad guy?

 So very this,and props for posting it. This more eloquently has encapsulated all I've been trying to say for years regarding playing as the Empire than I have ever managed to get out.

 

 

One of the things that makes the Empire different from the Nazis- the Empire is the government of the significant majority of the galaxy. And the galaxy does have some legitimate evils that are opposed by the Empire. 

 

The best of the Imperial-sympathizing stories have focused on characters who have been fighting against those terrible things, and have seen the Empire as the champion of ordinary people against the evils of the galaxy.

 

Actually. I take that back a bit. The very best of those stories have taken characters who have been the champions of the good the Empire has done, and shown them at the very moment of crisis where they have realized that the Empire is far worse than anything the Empire has ever opposed. 

 

The current arc of the Star Wars comic seems set to show us folks right on the cusp of this realization. 

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Maarek Stele was honourable enough. SO WERE MANY GERMAN FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD WARS. Some of which famously so.

 

The Nazi and Imperial Ideologies are clearly messed up. But that doesn't mean that the people fighting for them are.

They are. Unless you are forced into service, have completely clean hands (not even a tiny little war crime), and have no way of defecting, fighting for Nazis makes you messed up. All the volounteers, professional soilders, higher officers, scietinsts, etc. in German service were helping warmongering, genocidal regime and are inexcusable.

"Fighting for your fatherland" is not an excuse untill 1945, because that's when finally the good guys crossed pre-war German borders.

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Right, because no-one involved was just trying to make Germany great again, and the blame wasn't pushed on any particular minority group at all...

 

 

Though it's a little bit different, germany lost a lot of it's national pride post being reamed by the treaty of versailles.

 

 

 

Let's use a case study example. Here's a source, makes for a good read.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/von-saucken-to-hitler.html

 

 

Didn't seem to care about the ideology. Was fighting for his country.

 

 

Was he a bad guy?

Edited by DariusAPB

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My point as ever, is that in the best speculative fiction, in any sci fi or fantasy or even alternate history war. The most epic stories have heroes on both sides.

 

Even Star Wars makes mention of this, during a clone wars episode.

 

 

Gundam wing for example would have been SHITE without Zechs and Treize.Hell, I was rooting for them the entire time.

 

 

Note: At no point am I saying that Nazi Germany, The British Empire or their bastard son the Galactic Empire are good things. That is insane. Everyone wants to be the good guy, and people with good, altruistic qualities may be on both sides of the trenches. The countries/media's narrative is really what most see.

 

The fan film winner this year was about a stormtrooper who thought he was doing the right thing, it was a good read. The Crusaders thought they were doing the right thing too probably.

Edited by DariusAPB

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Though it's a little bit different, germany lost a lot of it's national pride post being reamed by the treaty of Versailles.

 

Which is to point out that none of this happens in a vacuum, and a lot of that insight is often overlooked in hindsight.

 

I visited Ypres, and was amazed at the meticulous and clearly expensive reconstruction of a city that was nothing but a single cathedral tower at the end of WWI.  I asked how all it was funded.  The answer is, of course, German marks.  Despite the fact that British and French forces had helped to lay waste to the exact same countryside.

 

Suddenly I understood a lot better how the Germans felt in the 1920 and 1930s.  And I also learned that there are still (even today) a lot of hard feelings over a World War that we Americans often forget about.

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Yup, and this is just high school history lessons.

 

WWII had it's reasons for happening. a LOT of them were WW1.

 

History is written by the victors.

 

Classic phrase, you've all heard it.

 

 

Do you suppose it means "The Narrative is dictated by the victors" would that be more accurate?

 

Facts are facts, some are hid, some not. Historians sort the details I suppose. But the narrative, how those facts, and myths and stories go together. That's what the winner's get to decide.

 

 

 

All this leads back to why I love 40K so much. No good guys or bad guys, they are all a-holes. Heroes on every side, all valid points of view.

More war crimes than my weekend war crimes bingo wargaming sessions.

Edited by DariusAPB

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Is the 'speciesist' Empire canonical? Since the Empire inherited the GAR which was comprised of human clones it would naturally recruit humans and near humans to fill the roll of the aging clones. It would be pretty hard for an Ithorian or Wookiee to fit into phase 2 trooper armour and have difficulty with weapons designed for human hands. Galactic citizens being recruited for officers and technicians on ships and stations would also naturally gravitate to humans and near humans for a variety of reasons, the most important being the lack of desire for non-humans to leave their home worlds and have military careers in protected all the varied species of the Galaxy. Could a Trandoshen ISD Captain be seen as impartial when dealing with wookiees or other former slave races? There's a reason why scum and villainy is made up of less than reputable individuals from diverse species, these are the individuals that have left their homeworlds due to fleeing justice or were desperate to flee persecution and were left with no choice but to indulge in a life of crime to survive. Most aliens are perfectly content to leave the rest of the Galaxy to its own devices as long as the central representative government and their senators bring home the bacon to their constituents. Only when the senate is dissolved do we see a multitude of aliens joining forces against the empire.

Anyway, is the Empire evil? Yes. Says so right in the opening crawl of ANH. Is it 'racist'? Depends on if Diznee Canon says so.

Per Aftermath, the Empire is speciesist/racist. 

 

(DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ENTIRELY SATIRICAL AND IN NO WAY SERIOUS)

The 3rd Reich is an extremely efficient government and is less corrupt then the governments before. We're only fighting for peace and stability on the planet, so everyone can enjoy our wonderful government. Our troops are fighting to liberate people from those Ally and Commie pigs, and we're here to restore peace and justice to the planet! Sure we killed a bunch of people, but they were peacefully protesting, while a few of the higher ups were radicalizing! No peaceful protests for the rich classes of our country! Anyone who opposes us are clearly terrorists, we're not trying to oppress anyone, we're trying to bring order to the planet!

</satire>

That's what people promoting the Empire sound like. I'm not attacking people who RP as imperials, I have no problem with that, but if you legitimately believe the Empire are the good guys.......

Also, to Grimmy: Speciesest Empire is still a thing. Misogynist Empire is not.

Per Aftermath and Aftermath: Life Debt, the Empire is Misogynist. 

Women officers are strongly dissuaded from serving in the Imperial Army and Navy, are sent to backwater outposts, and forced to watch their inept male peers get promoted before they do. 

 

One of the things that makes the Empire different from the Nazis- the Empire is the government of the significant majority of the galaxy. And the galaxy does have some legitimate evils that are opposed by the Empire. 

 

The best of the Imperial-sympathizing stories have focused on characters who have been fighting against those terrible things, and have seen the Empire as the champion of ordinary people against the evils of the galaxy.

 

Actually. I take that back a bit. The very best of those stories have taken characters who have been the champions of the good the Empire has done, and shown them at the very moment of crisis where they have realized that the Empire is far worse than anything the Empire has ever opposed. 

 

The current arc of the Star Wars comic seems set to show us folks right on the cusp of this realization. 

 

A- What legitimate evils are opposed by the Empire? 

B- Nazi Germany was a government that represented the majority of Germans. The Nazis also believed that they were opposing the legitimate evils posed by democracy, communism, individual liberty, and Judaism (they specifically believed that Jews sought to control the world and that they had largely succeeded in secrecy - the countries that fought the Nazis were Jewish puppets and Germany was the most bestest country on earth in large part because they had destroyed the Jewish conspiracy to subsume the German state within the Jewish New World Order). 

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Everyone thinks they're the good guy.

 

Everyone.

 

It's all in perspective: what you see of the world and even more importantly what you don't see of the world.

 

When you can't see their full motivations it's easy to see someone as evil. Likewise it's easy not to see your own actions as evil when you can't see their full consequences.

 

People who do things for teh evilz don't exist.

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Yup, and this is just high school history lessons.

 

WWII had it's reasons for happening. a LOT of them were WW1.

 

History is written by the victors.

 

Classic phrase, you've all heard it.

 

 

Do you suppose it means "The Narrative is dictated by the victors" would that be more accurate?

 

Facts are facts, some are hid, some not. Historians sort the details I suppose. But the narrative, how those facts, and myths and stories go together. That's what the winner's get to decide.

 

 

 

All this leads back to why I love 40K so much. No good guys or bad guys, they are all a-holes. Heroes on every side, all valid points of view.

More war crimes than my weekend war crimes bingo wargaming sessions.

Who controls the past now

Controls the future

Who controls the present now

Controls the past

Who controls the present now? 

I'm assuming that you're referring to the Palpatine's efforts to make the Republic look worse than it actually was and to discredit and destroy the Jedi Order and all non-sanctioned Force worship and practice. 

Edited by Vigil

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THANK YOU! Blue Five. That's what I'm trying to say. People don't just do things for the evulz.

 

There are means, there are ends. There are people who admit to themselves that they are bad people, these are not that common.

Moral decay rules all.

 

Comparing the US to Nazi Germany and the Empire isn't a huge stretch, nor is the British Empire of the 19th century, or the Roman Empire.

 

The U.S. has yet to genocide, but really that's the biggest difference. Social policies can be questioned up and down the flagpole for everyone, and it's important to remember that Hitler/the Nazi's did take a tired, beat up and depressedGermany and, to use Trumpisms. Make it great again.

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Everyone thinks they're the good guy.

 

Everyone.

 

It's all in perspective: what you see of the world and even more importantly what you don't see of the world.

 

When you can't see their full motivations it's easy to see someone as evil. Likewise it's easy not to see your own actions as evil when you can't see their full consequences.

 

People who do things for teh evilz don't exist.

Yes, they do. 

They just rationalize it and say that they're doing things for the right reasons. And then, because they're broken, because there are things missing in their brains that normal people have, they sleep soundly at night. 

Just because you think you are the good guy doesn't make it so. Inshallah, you will be able to objectively look at what you're doing, who you're working for, who it is that's benefitting and determine whether that's you or not. 

 

THANK YOU! Blue Five. That's what I'm trying to say. People don't just do things for the evulz.

 

There are means, there are ends. There are people who admit to themselves that they are bad people, these are not that common.

Moral decay rules all.

 

Comparing the US to Nazi Germany and the Empire isn't a huge stretch, nor is the British Empire of the 19th century, or the Roman Empire.

 

The U.S. has yet to genocide, but really that's the biggest difference. Social policies can be questioned up and down the flagpole for everyone, and it's important to remember that Hitler/the Nazi's did take a tired, beat up and depressedGermany and, to use Trumpisms. Make it great again.

 

The United States has committed genocide, it's called the Holocaust of the Plains for a reason. 

Comparing the US to Nazi Germany or the Galactic Empire is an enormous stretch, however. 

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Right, because no-one involved was just trying to make Germany great again, and the blame wasn't pushed on any particular minority group at all...

 

 

Though it's a little bit different, germany lost a lot of it's national pride post being reamed by the treaty of versailles.

 

 

 

Let's use a case study example. Here's a source, makes for a good read.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/von-saucken-to-hitler.html

 

 

Didn't seem to care about the ideology. Was fighting for his country.

 

 

Was he a bad guy?

He was. He was helping literally Hitler to win the war, didn't try to use his position to sabotege war effort or really do anything to stop the nazi regime. 

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Or, alternate viewpoint. He was doing his job, his duty.

 

 

Ok, so the US has done Genocide.

 

 

Somebody had better explain to me why comparing the US, British Empire and Nazi Germany to each other is a huge stretch. Because I admit i don't get it.

 

Note: I am speaking broadly. Accepting that each has it's share of crimes against humanity (treatment of native americans, miners, What the British did to some of the colonies in Africa (though compared to the Belgians...).

 

Now, one can argue that the U.S, Britain and Germany are all trying to atone, make up for, it, improve things. Sure. But look. Germany is still on that list! Is it Hitlers Germany? No. But it's not Victorias England either.

Edited by DariusAPB

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