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Vigil

The Empire is evil.

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I just spent today educating people, if only there was some sort of tool we could use to estimate the value of my labor that could then also be used as a medium of exchange so that I can trade my labor for food from people who don't need me to educate them on how to write JCL.

That's called Barter.  While it worked great for millennia, we've upgraded to an abstract system called Currency. :P

 

Please don't explain the joke, it kinda rains on my condescending parade.

 

Dang.  I thought my part was the joke.  My bad.

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The UK and US treated all their POWs well. Japanese and German. Even though the racial element to the war in the Pacific meant that neither the US respected the Japanese nor did the Japanese respect the US.

US treared prisoners well, except at the end of WW2 they classified the germans as Disarmed Enemy Forces, not POWs, which allowed them to conveniently sidestep any obligation toward the treatment of POWs. Many germans died due to bad conditions in the prisoner camp (way less than in the east though, but that doesn't make it excusable IMO).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager

Edited by LordBlades

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One final word on the US deployment of nuclear weapons against Japan: 

Unlike the US use of napalm (which the Japanese feared much more and killed far more Japanese civilians - and was, in fact, specifically chosen by one Curtis LeMay specifically because most Japanese houses of the time were constructed of rice paper and wood, and therefore were extremely susceptible to fire-based weapons, such as napalm), the primary targets of both US nuclear devices were primarily industrial areas. Because of this - and because of the time at which the bombs were dropped and detonated - civilian casualties were lower than they might have otherwise been. Because Japan, like Germany (and, well, everyone) tended to build their industrial complexes in close vicinity to populated areas, that meant that civilian casualties are inevitable. 

While I do not and would not condone the targeting of civilian populations, it is highly probable that the widespread destruction of Japan and occupied Europe meant that the Japanese and German peoples were totally exhausted by war and unwilling to assist nascent insurgencies, ensuring that they were stillborn and that the Allied occupations of Japan and Germany were relatively peaceful. That widespread destruction also meant that when the US started sending money by the bucketload to Europe and Japan that there were plenty of people eager to rebuild and plenty of stuff in need of rebuilding. That the Marshall Plan pretty much all but single-handedly ensured that Japan and Germany would enjoy enormous economic success thirty and forty years later (and on-going in Germany, somewhat less so in Japan) allowing them to come the closest to matching the economic output of the US for decades is pretty much an established historical fact. 

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Wasn't there a theory that Palpatine militarised the Republic and made it into an Empire in order to combat the threat of the invading Yuuzhan Vong?

Which also involved murdering a group of Jedi sent to explore the galaxy, but yes more or less. He found out about them after the Clone wars. At the time, the death star was nearly complete, he had a huge army/fleet. Also given that the Yuuzhan vong wouldn't be there for another 20 years, he figured on having them run into a heavily armed and experienced army/fleet. "It is of no concern".

 

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Wasn't there a theory that Palpatine militarised the Republic and made it into an Empire in order to combat the threat of the invading Yuuzhan Vong?

Which also involved murdering a group of Jedi sent to explore the galaxy, but yes more or less. He found out about them after the Clone wars. 

 

 

Before, not after - first reported to him as "The Far Outsiders". 

 

Thrawn was probably a lot more concerned - since the Chiss Navy had actually fought Vong scouting forces.

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Wasn't there a theory that Palpatine militarised the Republic and made it into an Empire in order to combat the threat of the invading Yuuzhan Vong?

There's also a theory that Ja Jar is Snoke.
Everyone is Snoke.

Time for more Snoke-speculation!

Although recently released books lead me to develop a new vague impression of where he comes from: (Aftermath II spoilers)

Rax guarded something on Jakku. He prepares to get something from Jakku at the end of the second Aftermath book. I believe that this is Snoke, a being of great power that predates both Jedi and Sith, banished (probably for dark-sidey stuff) in some kind of crude stasis (therefor the screwed up face like that of a mummie), but known through Sith lore. Sheev rediscovered his tomb and recognized him as the only being powerfull enough to take over his reign, which made him both important as successor and dangerous as rival, which is why he was for the time left on Jakku. He then left instructions on what to do in the case of his death with Gallius Rax who now is ready to rebuild the empire as first order with Snoke at its head.

The new republic believes Jakku to be a victory, when in reality Rax's fleet only held out as long as they needed to recover Snoke.

Hm. I can see this, but I think it's important that Rey was left on Jakuu. This theory doesn't really address that, and so feels incomplete.

 

Thats right, I haven't given Rey much thought, yet. Isn't she younger than the battle of Jakku, though? The issue I have with Rey speculation is that her story is so unknowable for now. If my theory is going into the right direction, though, she probably has a connection to Snoke.

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The catch there being that Palpatine was still the driving force behind the Separatists and the Death Star's construction.

No, real objections against that. Will not try to argue that Palpatine was a good man. ;-)

More below.

 

 

A thought to consider. The empire ended the clone wars. The Empire defeated the separatists and at least the first death star has been (mainly) constructed by the separatists. The empire restored order in the galaxy, something the republic was unable to do. Now there is certainly an issue that its leader is not only the most powerful being in the universe, he is as well a sith lord, sadist and megalomaniac. Well, strike the megalomaniac because he actually might be as great and important as he thinks he is. But Palpatine is not the empire and people like Tarkin fought hard for the Republic during the clone wars and there is strong indication in TCW that Tarkin did not fought for personal gain either.

The catch there being that Palpatine was still the driving force behind the Separatists and the Death Star's construction.

 

Yes. The empire started and ended the clone wars. Heh. This thread has gone to strange places. (And I was epically wrong about the shields in the movies. oops.)

 

 

Started? Not at all. 

 

You might blame the Sith, as they took the political atmosphere to their advantage and raised to political power and leadership within the republic and the Confederation of Independent Systems, but they did not created the corruption within the senate and republic bureaucracy which lead to the separatist movement. 

 

But this Empire is not the Sith Empire. 

 

Even more important, the fall of the Empire and Palpatine's death which lead to the birth of the new republic lead to exact the same situation again. Centralist within the new republic supporting the first order and separatist speaking out for more independence from the republic. (Bloodlines)

 

The Empire is the Sith Empire. It was created by a Sith so he can rule the galaxy and fell apart a year after his death.

 

Sith didn't raise to political power and leadership within the Confederation of Independent Systems. They created the CIS and led it from the very start. Maybe someone else would have done that if Sheev wasn't pulling the strings but we can't possibly know that. And even then, would non-Sith confederacy threat the Republic with armed forces? Would non-Sith Republic follow up with an army of their own? Maybe a compromise or a peaceful split could have been achieved instead of the civil war?

 

We don't know any of the answers, we only know that what happened was the worst possible outcome and that all that happened was orchestrated by a Sith creating one side of the conflict and leading both of them.

 

Corruption and bureaucracy didn't disappear with the end of the Republic, quite the opposite.

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If destroying an entire world of billions of people because you can isn't evil, what is?

 

All a matter of perspective. Back at the academy, I learned that Alderaan had weapons of mass destruction, so we basically just fired back first. Also, I heard that the people of Alderaan used to have the annoying habits to talk loudly at the movies and send 'funny' cat pictures by mail. What a bunch of jerks. We did the galaxy a favor. How many adorable kitty pictures did you see in Episodes I-VII? None, so there. You're welcome.

Edited by debiler

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Banknotes were once promisory notes for silver and gold: the name of the British currency, the Pound, comes from the measure of weight. You could go to the central bank and exchange it for gold whenever you wanted to. People didn't because notes and coins were more convenient.

We've since moved on to fiat money: banknotes can no longer be exchanged for gold, just for the equivalent value of money. A dollar bill is a promisory note that entitles you to claim a dollar from the Federal Reserve, but as the dollar is an abstract concept you can only exchange it for another dollar bill.

 

Fun fact: gold and silver have as much intrinsic value as paper money. That is: none at all.

 

Gold and silver have value as raw materials.

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Maybe someone else would have done that if Sheev wasn't pulling the strings but we can't possibly know that. And even then, would non-Sith confederacy threat the Republic with armed forces? Would non-Sith Republic follow up with an army of their own? Maybe a compromise or a peaceful split could have been achieved instead of the civil war?

 

We don't know any of the answers, we only know that what happened was the worst possible outcome and that all that happened was orchestrated by a Sith creating one side of the conflict and leading both of them.

TCW has some strong indications that Duches Satin, Senator Amidala and Senator Mina Bonteri would have been successful with their peace negotiations if not assassinated. Though some of the non-sith political leaders within both Senates certainly were cold blooded enough to arrange assassinations against their political enemies without Sith encouragement. So, while peaceful solutions without Sith involvement seems possible, they are not guaranteed either and were possible with the Sith around too. The assassination of Bonteri was a last minute action and nearly backfired on Doku.

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Banknotes were once promisory notes for silver and gold: the name of the British currency, the Pound, comes from the measure of weight. You could go to the central bank and exchange it for gold whenever you wanted to. People didn't because notes and coins were more convenient.

We've since moved on to fiat money: banknotes can no longer be exchanged for gold, just for the equivalent value of money. A dollar bill is a promisory note that entitles you to claim a dollar from the Federal Reserve, but as the dollar is an abstract concept you can only exchange it for another dollar bill.

 

Fun fact: gold and silver have as much intrinsic value as paper money. That is: none at all.

Gold and silver have value as raw materials.

As does paper. Intrinsic value is good for investment and terrible for currency. Money that people don't want to spend is bad money.

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I think it's fair to assert that a Base Delta Zero is a significant undertaking requiring a colossal military presence simply from how rare it is. That, or/and it can be countered by a respectable planetary shield: Thrawn's fleet is unable to attack a shielded planet in the Thrawn Trilogy and the planetary shields are what prevents a proper assault on Coruscant in both Stackpole and Zahn's EU works. It's also possible that a BD0 can only realistically cripple a planet rather than wipe out its population when you take into account military resources and timescales: the destruction of Taris is a BD0 which destroys everything over a few stories tall but is hardly an extinction event.

 

It makes sense to me that:

  • Base Delta Zeroes are highly destructive but take a long time and are impractical as an extinction event: the bombardment can be survived. They require an extended siege which limits their applicability as a shock and awe method.
  • Base Delta Zeroes do not work well against planetary shields: a developed world has the defences to resist them and an undeveloped world isn't sufficiently populated for a BD0 to be effective. The only situation where a BD0 can be carried out on a developed world is one where the Empire is already in control. This may require firing on one's own troops (as with the destruction of Taris) which does not inspire loyalty and is probably less effective than an occupation for most purposes.
  • An extinction level BD0 in a realistic timescale would require a commitment of military resources the Empire couldn't afford without leaving other parts of the galaxy undefended. The speed of the Death Star is as much of an advantage as its power.

Nah, it's roughly the equivolent of Exterminatus, minus cracking into the mantle directly. A single star destroyer has more than enough fire power to glass a planet, and usually the Empire masses a small fleet of them for it just to save time. You also have to remember most planets don't sport several surface to orbit ion cannons and turbolasers to repel invaders. Lucas went out of his way during a pissing contest with trekkies to guestimate the destructive power of a Star Destroyers, they can power dump and put out several nukes worth of damage.

You've only seen BD0 in one game which was Kotor,, and it wasn't a common thing in the EU books either.

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A single star destroyer has more than enough fire power to glass a planet

 

Then why don't they?

I find the best approach to making sense of the EU is to, rather than to take every contradictory fact as true, look at what happens and reason from that.

 

 

Lothal being scheduled for Base Delta Zero was hinted numerous times in the first season of Rebels, I'm still waiting!

 

 

I was under the impression the Lothal plan was to mine for giant Kyber crystals for the Death Star.

Edited by Blue Five

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Alderaan wasn't destroyed to get rid of Alderaan: were it enough of a problem the Empire probably could have dealt with it beforehand:

 

It was destroyed to scare the **** out of everybody else.

It was a terrorist act, done by the Empire to create "Fear of this battle station." So yes, the New Order government is also a terrorist government. If you have to terrify consent out of the governed, you're not a legitimate government.

 

 

 

Lothal being scheduled for Base Delta Zero was hinted numerous times in the first season of Rebels, I'm still waiting!

Hopefully with the cast still on the planet, followed by airing an a show that isn't for kids.

 

Does someone have a little sand in his no-no places about the fact that Star Wars is for children, and always has been? Star Wars will never be a Game of Thrones or X-Files; it's written for the 7-13 demographic from the start. When done WELL, it can speak to demographics outside that (the original trilogy, TFA, some Clone Wars episodes), when done badly... "Now THIS is pod racing!"

 

And Rebels is done well. It's actually grittier than a fair bit of Star Wars stuff, showing consequences for their actions, the struggle to hold to a morality even when it would be quick and easy to slip from it, and that at every turn they're fighting against something stronger than they are and yet they keep fighting. The sandiness is caused because it infringes on some grognards' safe spaces of what happened before Yavin.

 

But the truth is that it's not your intellectual property, it's Disney's, and the people in charge of canon now are the ones that Lucas trusted to do a better job than he could with it.

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A single star destroyer has more than enough fire power to glass a planet

 

Then why don't they?

I find the best approach to making sense of the EU is to, rather than to take every contradictory fact as true, look at what happens and reason from that.

 

 

Lothal being scheduled for Base Delta Zero was hinted numerous times in the first season of Rebels, I'm still waiting!

 

 

I was under the impression the Lothal plan was to mine for giant Kyber crystals for the Death Star.

 

Maybe they want to extract them and the planet surface stands in their way? :P

 

bdz.jpg

aurebesh B, a delta, zero

 

There are other hints, for example in this article:

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2015/02/base-delta-fulcrum-the-lothal-conspiracy-theory/

Edited by eMeM

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As does paper. Intrinsic value is good for investment and terrible for currency. Money that people don't want to spend is bad money.

Yup. Money is quite a bit like blood: if it doesn't circulate, the body (economy) dies. And if you want your body (again: economy) to keep growing, you absolutely need to increase the blood supply. Extreme inflation is obviously a problem, but the opposite of this is deflation- and it's significantly worse. 

 

Deflation is what happened in 1929, and again in 2008. The Fed was created after 1929 to prevent that sort of thing from happening again, and it mostly worked. Indeed, had the Fed not taken some _very_ fast action* in 2008, we would have seen 1929 all over again. 

 

The tools to stop deflation exist under a hard currency regime, but are very difficult to implement, and take a whole lot of time. The big lesson from 1929 is that a global economy can't afford to have a gold standard, because if they do, there is simply not enough _money_ for the GDP:

 

NOL8GE1.png

(Image from Dr. Brad Delong. He's... um. If you don't know who he is, lets just say that this is his area of specialty.) 

 

So again: yes. You are 100% correct. Money that doesn't circulate is bad. Part of the problem the world economy faces in 2016 is that there's a lot of money that's just _sitting_, collecting digital dust and not moving. Apple's (as one famous example among a great many) tax rate may sound really boring, but... the fact that they're not spending the money and it's not being taxed out from under them is the rough equivalent of staking someone near a clean water lake on a hot day and not letting them drink.

 

*On 29 September 2008, the American Economy was literally hours away from a total collapse. And so the Fed stepped in and raised the FDIC limit from $100,000 to $250,000. This action was retroactively approved by congress, and is credited with halting the total meltdown of the economy. It feels arcane, but it really, _really_ is important.

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The Empire is less corrupt and more effective at the basic roles of the state (at its core, law enforcement and defense) than the Republic was.

 

However, the Emperor is personally evil, and by extension there are a great many outright evil underlings enabled by his example.

 

That said, the damage that any of those evil people can do is generally limited, especially compared to the invasive and incredibly dangerous republic bureaucracy and the out-of-control crony super-corporations that abused their wealth and influence to the detriment of the people. Throw in the vileness that was the Jedi Order and between the two I'd take the Empire over the Republic.

 

Of course, to the above there are a handful of exceptions, namely the Death Star and other superweapons enabled evil people personally to affect the lives of far more people than normal. As for accusations of widespread oppression, most of that was localized to urban populations that were generally non-contributory and often essentially leeching from productive worlds. In an effort to make them worth the expense of maintaining order, the Empire has to tax them in the same way they do producers, but since they're nonproductive they feel the weight of those taxes far more, and like most urban mobs they then agitate. Historically that problem is solved by large-scale bribery (the prototypical bread and circuses), or by mass conscription, but the Empire isn't willing to kowtow to the mob nor to compromise the quality of the Stormtrooper Corps. This leads to simmering resentment and, like in many historical situations, breeds rebellion.

 

And as for Alderaan, it was a hotbed of treason and insurrection. Contrary to its claims of being unarmed, it was straight-up the leading supplier of munitions to the rebellion, pretty much the opposite of unarmed. It was even supplying the insurrection with naval assets.

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The Empire is less corrupt and more effective at the basic roles of the state (at its core, law enforcement and defense) than the Republic was.

 

However, the Emperor is personally evil, and by extension there are a great many outright evil underlings enabled by his example.

 

That said, the damage that any of those evil people can do is generally limited, especially compared to the invasive and incredibly dangerous republic bureaucracy and the out-of-control crony super-corporations that abused their wealth and influence to the detriment of the people. Throw in the vileness that was the Jedi Order and between the two I'd take the Empire over the Republic.

 

Of course, to the above there are a handful of exceptions, namely the Death Star and other superweapons enabled evil people personally to affect the lives of far more people than normal. As for accusations of widespread oppression, most of that was localized to urban populations that were generally non-contributory and often essentially leeching from productive worlds. In an effort to make them worth the expense of maintaining order, the Empire has to tax them in the same way they do producers, but since they're nonproductive they feel the weight of those taxes far more, and like most urban mobs they then agitate. Historically that problem is solved by large-scale bribery (the prototypical bread and circuses), or by mass conscription, but the Empire isn't willing to kowtow to the mob nor to compromise the quality of the Stormtrooper Corps. This leads to simmering resentment and, like in many historical situations, breeds rebellion.

 

And as for Alderaan, it was a hotbed of treason and insurrection. Contrary to its claims of being unarmed, it was straight-up the leading supplier of munitions to the rebellion, pretty much the opposite of unarmed. It was even supplying the insurrection with naval assets.

 

Not certain if parody of right-wing chickenhawks or not. 

 

Yeah but the 1stOrder has diversity so that means they are the good guys unlike the Republic.

 

I mean look at this picture no black guys. Proof that the resistance is racist.  :P   :P   :P

False. 

The only two black guys in the galaxy fought for the Rebellion and then the Resistance. 

Edited by Vigil

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