R2, Daredevil, and Pattern Analyzer

[VanorDM 11,599]

the crit your turns are red doesnt specify your dial...so that means daredevil became a red as well lol..double stress ouch

 

Actually I'd say that based on the FAQ that crit wouldn't effect Daredevil since the FAQ says they're always treated as white.

[bgrelle 246]

Hmmm yes I didn't think about the "changing" part not being on the Daredevil card.  Carry on.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

Page 13 of the 4.2.1 FAQ says... 

 

Daredevil

A ship that performs the Daredevil action follows all normal rules for executing a maneuver, except that the maneuver is always treated as a white maneuver. Daredevil may be performed even if the ship would overlap another ship or obstacle; resolve the overlapping as normal.

I just don't see how it can be read any other way then the maneuver from Daredevil not being changed by R2, even though I completely agree it should.

I read that as "the person typing that wasn't thinking about the possibility of an interaction that would change the Daredevil maneuver's difficulty, and so used stronger language than was warranted." But it needs to be ruled on, either way.

[VanorDM 11,599]

But it needs to be ruled on, either way.

No it really doesn't... RAW from the FAQ is fairly clear I think. It is as I said not the first time they've ruled like this before. 

 

To me it seems like they always intended Daredevil to be a white maneuver, and didn't want anything changing it.  There's nothing actually wrong with that intention either, even though it does go against the rules.

 

The FAQ is clear as written.  The turn from Daredevil is always white, and nothing, not R2, not a crit, not anything can change that.  If start applying what we think RAI to something in it, there's simply no point in even discussing the rules any longer.   So no we can not look at rules and think 'I can see what the rules say but I don't think they were intended to work like that' when it's coming from a place that is explaining the RAI in the first place.

Edited September 30, 2016 by VanorDM

[digitalbusker 2,248]

But it needs to be ruled on, either way.

No it really doesn't... RAW from the FAQ is fairly clear I think. It is as I said not the first time they've ruled like this before. 

 

To me it seems like they always intended Daredevil to be a white maneuver, and didn't want anything changing it.  There's nothing actually wrong with that intention either, even though it does go against the rules.

 

The FAQ is clear as written.  The turn from Daredevil is always white, and nothing, not R2, not a crit, not anything can change that.  If start applying what we think RAI to something in it, there's simply no point in even discussing the rules any longer.   So no we can not look at rules and think 'I can see what the rules say but I don't think they were intended to work like that' when it's coming from a place that is explaining the RAI in the first place.

There's a clear precedent that points in one direction, and some clarification text (not card text or rules text, mind) that doesn't explicitly reference the situation under consideration, but seems to point the other way. It's perfectly reasonable to look at that and say "It's entirely plausible that the person who wrote this line wasn't aware of this interaction" and ask the question more specifically in hopes of getting more specific guidance.

Remember the line in the huge ship rules that says they can't be affected by Focus or Evade tokens? Did that turn out to mean they couldn't use Esege Tuketu? It didn't.

[VanorDM 11,599]

There's a clear precedent that points in one direction

Yes there is, but precedent only matters when it's not directly contrary to some other source.

 

and some clarification text (not card text or rules text, mind)

That clarification text has greater weight than the card text does, since it's our one and only source of reliable RAI. FAQ trumps everything, and if that weren't true, if the plain text in the FAQ was open for debate then the FAQ itself becomes pointless, because then everyone would simply play by what ever RAI they wanted.

 

that doesn't explicitly reference the situation under consideration

Yes it does. It says that the maneuver from Daredevil has an exception from the normal rules and what that exception is.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to look at that and say "It's entirely plausible that the person who wrote this line wasn't aware of this interaction"

No it's not. It's never reasonable to assume that the rules are wrong. We can debate the RAI, or the proper interpretation of the rules when they are unclear. We can discuss how the rules interact with each other. But if we start to approach it assuming that the person who wrote them did so in error then we might as well throw the rules out the window.

Even if they were to overturn this decision, it still doesn't mean we can ever approach the rules with the assumption that they were written in error or didn't mean exactly what they say.

 

Edit: You of course are free to do what you want.  But even if you emailed them and Alex said 'no the FAQ is wrong, R2 does work with Daredevil.' until the FAQ is changed it is still the most authoritative source and everyone should be following the RAW from it.

Edited September 30, 2016 by VanorDM

[Klutz 1,590]

I tend to side with VanorDM on this one.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

 

the crit your turns are red doesnt specify your dial...so that means daredevil became a red as well lol..double stress ouch

 

Actually I'd say that based on the FAQ that crit wouldn't effect Daredevil since the FAQ says they're always treated as white.

 

thats referring to the old daredevil print, which WAS red to begin with. Im assuming it was changed because of things like Targeting Astromech making it both a hardturn AND a free TL.

It makes no sense to both say "always white" and "uses the most negative effect" unless its simply bad wording on changing from originally red to currently white.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

thats referring to the old daredevil print, which WAS red to begin with. Im assuming it was changed because of things like Targeting Astromech making it both a hardturn AND a free TL.

It makes no sense to both say "always white" and "uses the most negative effect" unless its simply bad wording on changing from originally red to currently white.

Originally Daredevil was a red 1 turn, yeah, but they changed it because they realized it wouldn't work the way it was supposed to work. See, back in the day, "Check Pilot Stress" wasn't a substep of "Execute Maneuver", it was a separate step that you did right after Execute Maneuver. So it didn't matter that you were performing a red maneuver as part of Daredevil, you had already done your Check Stress step for the round, so no additional Daredevil stress.

[Klutz 1,590]

thats referring to the old daredevil print, which WAS red to begin with. Im assuming it was changed because of things like Targeting Astromech making it both a hardturn AND a free TL.

 

It makes no sense to both say "always white" and "uses the most negative effect" unless its simply bad wording on changing from originally red to currently white.

 

No one is arguing that the Errata that changed Daredevil from a red 1-hard to a white 1-hard should be considered to be "changing the difficulty" and have the "use the most negative effect" rule applied to it.

 

---------------------------------------------

The 2 current opinions and supporting arguments are these:

 

• Daredevil is white and the FAQ entry explicitly states that it is "always treated as a white maneuver", therefore it's difficulty is immune to other game effects.
• Daredevil is white but the difficulty can be modified by other cards (like R2 Astromech).

 

-----------------------------------------

 

 

Just so everyone is using the same data... The FAQ document has 2 entries regarding Daredevil :

• An Errata, which changes the card text to :
  • “Action: Execute a white [ 1] or [ 1] maneuver. Then, receive 1 stress token. Then, if you do not have the action icon, roll 2 attack dice. Suffer any damage [] and critical damage [] rolled.” 
• A Clarification, which states 2 things :
  • A ship that performs the Daredevil action follows all normal rules for executing a maneuver, except that the maneuver is always treated as a white maneuver.
  • Daredevil may be performed even if the ship would overlap another ship or obstacle; resolve the overlapping as normal.

 

The Errata is what changed Daredevil's card text to use a white maneuver.

 

The only thing the first sentence from the Clarification adds is the part about "the maneuver is always treated as a white maneuver".

 

Arguing that the "always treated as a white maneuver" part is meaningless and the author didn't understand the implications basically means the whole first sentence of the FAQ clarification would exist for literally no reason.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

Arguing that the "always treated as a white maneuver" part is meaningless and the author didn't understand the implications basically means the whole first sentence of the FAQ clarification would exist for literally no reason.

Yes, that's what it would mean. And it wouldn't be the first time a sentence had appeared in an official document that could have been removed with no change.

To be clear: I'm not arguing that this is definitely, provably the case. I'm arguing that:

• it's happened before, and
• it's more plausible than "we are super committed to Daredevil's maneuver always being white, despite not caring about the identically-specified white 1 straight ion maneuver"
• ...and that, given those two things, it makes sense to ask a rules question about this to give the rules team a chance to clarify the FAQ if that wording wasn't intended to be read the way we're reading it.

  That's it. Just that it makes sense to ask the question.

[Smuggler 556]

 

Arguing that the "always treated as a white maneuver" part is meaningless and the author didn't understand the implications basically means the whole first sentence of the FAQ clarification would exist for literally no reason.

Yes, that's what it would mean. And it wouldn't be the first time a sentence had appeared in an official document that could have been removed with no change.

To be clear: I'm not arguing that this is definitely, provably the case. I'm arguing that:

• it's happened before, and
• it's more plausible than "we are super committed to Daredevil's maneuver always being white, despite not caring about the identically-specified white 1 straight ion maneuver"
• ...and that, given those two things, it makes sense to ask a rules question about this to give the rules team a chance to clarify the FAQ if that wording wasn't intended to be read the way we're reading it.

  That's it. Just that it makes sense to ask the question.

 

The beauty of the "Ask a rules question"-feature (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/) is that any one can use it at any time without having to first reach forum consensu on wether or not the question is justified. So ask away

[digitalbusker 2,248]

The beauty of the "Ask a rules question"-feature (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/) is that any one can use it at any time without having to first reach forum consensu on wether or not the question is justified. So ask away

Touche.

Personally, I'm waiting to submit any new rules questions until I get answers back for the handful that I've got outstanding, but I'm hoping that somebody has already asked about this.

[jmswood 2,706]

With regard to the combination of R2 and Daredevil: FFG is not playing "because we say so" in the Daredevil FAQ. The FAQ for Daredevil stating "always treated as a white maneuver is consistent with existing rules formchanging the difficulty of a maneuver.

Rules page 10: "If two game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, the effect that makes the maneuver more difficult takes priority. The other effect is ignored." For this specific situation, R2 makes a 1-turn green. Daredevil declares the 1-turn is white. White is more difficult, Daredevil takes priority. R2 is ignored. In the case of R2, if anything is inconsistent, it's the FAQ on R2 and ionaiztion creating an exception to the rule quoted above.

[bgrelle 246]

 

Per the Rules Reference section on Difficulty found on page 10 "• If two game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, the effect that makes the maneuver more difficult takes priority. The other effect is ignored."  This tells me that since Daredevil says the maneuver is white, the astromech can't make it green.

 

The logic that was applied to an ion's 1-straight white maneuver is that, since ion says "perform a white 1-straight maneuver", it isn't changing the difficulty, it's just a white maneuver. And R2 changes the difficulty, so it can make the ion's 1-straight green.

 

Daredevil is similar. It doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver, it just says to "perform a white 1-hard maneuver". Which is why people think R2 should be able to change the difficulty to green.

 

 

 

With regard to the combination of R2 and Daredevil: FFG is not playing "because we say so" in the Daredevil FAQ. The FAQ for Daredevil stating "always treated as a white maneuver is consistent with existing rules formchanging the difficulty of a maneuver.

Rules page 10: "If two game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, the effect that makes the maneuver more difficult takes priority. The other effect is ignored." For this specific situation, R2 makes a 1-turn green. Daredevil declares the 1-turn is white. White is more difficult, Daredevil takes priority. R2 is ignored. In the case of R2, if anything is inconsistent, it's the FAQ on R2 and ionaiztion creating an exception to the rule quoted above.

 

I tried this once already, please see Klutz's reply quoted here.  Daredevil doesn't "Change" the difficulty it just states the difficulty is white.  Actually changing the difficulty is more along the lines of the crit damage card that makes all turns red.  This change overrules the R2 change making them green.  But also as stated above we haven't had an official ruling yet so it's really still all speculation.

[VanorDM 11,599]

But also as stated above we haven't had an official ruling yet so it's really still all speculation.

 

We do have an official ruling, R2 does not work with Daredevil. 

 

There is the possibility that the ruling will change, but that doesn't mean we don't have one.  The FAQ is fairly clear on this as written.  The turn from Daredevil is always white, that means it can't be changed by another effect.

 

But again this isn't a lack of an official ruling it's a ruling that doesn't completely agree with the existing rules which is not all that uncommon.

[jmswood 2,706]

I disagree with the assessment that Daredevil does not change the difficulty of the maneuver. It's a question of order of operations. R2 astromech passively makes all 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green, beginning at the moment you start the game. Daredevil is a game effect that must be activated by the player after the game is already started. Therefore Daredevil makes that 1-turn white. The same is true for my argument about R2 vs Ionization. Ion tokens are a game effect that happens during play, after R2 passively made 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green.

[jmswood 2,706]

I apologize for throwing in my two bits late in the discussion and reapeating some material already discussed. That said, all of this brought up another question in my mind. Does Kanan work with Daredevil?

[digitalbusker 2,248]

I apologize for throwing in my two bits late in the discussion and reapeating some material already discussed. That said, all of this brought up another question in my mind. Does Kanan work with Daredevil?

I say no, but this argument already has at least one home, and doesn't need to be resumed here.

[VanorDM 11,599]

R2 astromech passively makes all 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green, beginning at the moment you start the game.

That's not really true. Because he can't change a red 1 or 2 speed maneuver green. R2 reduces the difficulty of all speed 1 or 2 maneuvers, but an effect that makes a maneuver more difficult trumps one that makes it easier.

 

Ion tokens are a game effect that happens during play, after R2 passively made 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green.

There really is no such timing as this. There aren't any ongoing effects that happen at the start of the game but don't carry though the rest of the game. In this case the FAQ clearly states that R2 affects the maneuver from the ion effect, because that's how the rules should work.

[Klutz 1,590]

I disagree with the assessment that Daredevil does not change the difficulty of the maneuver. It's a question of order of operations. R2 astromech passively makes all 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green, beginning at the moment you start the game. Daredevil is a game effect that must be activated by the player after the game is already started. Therefore Daredevil makes that 1-turn white. The same is true for my argument about R2 vs Ionization. Ion tokens are a game effect that happens during play, after R2 passively made 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green.

 

Your whole argument is all sorts of wrong. The logic behing the R2 / ion ruling is well established.

 

 

 

 

The only unclear part of this whole debate is whether the "always white" in Daredevil's FAQ entry carries any weight:

• it could be there to stop Daredevil's white turn being affected by R2 and Damaged Engine;
• or it could be like "immediately", which is used on many cards but means nothing.

It's hard to say, since there is no other rule which uses the same wording.

[StephenEsven 632]

I think people are too focused on the FAQ, and not reading the actual card. Or in this case the errata. Which simple states that you execute a white maneuver. And R2 allows you to treat that white maneuver as green. Also remember this FAQ entry was worded when the errata was introduced. It is probably written only with that text in mind, and not considering the R2 interaction.

 

Do what the cards say, not what the FAQ makes you think you should do.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I think people are too focused on the FAQ, and not reading the actual card.

FAQ overrules the card, always has.

 

It is probably written only with that text in mind, and not considering the R2 interaction.

Except we have no reason to actually believe that. I mean it's completely possible that you're right, but as it stands the FAQ is crystal clear and we have no reason to assume it's incorrect.  It's not like FFG has never ruled in a way that is contrary to the existing rules.

 

Do what the cards say, not what the FAQ makes you think you should do.

If we can't follow the plain text in the FAQ then there's no point in having it.  We also can not pick and choose what parts of the FAQ are valid and what aren't.

 

Here's the text from the FAQ again "A ship that performs the Daredevil action follows all normal rules for executing a maneuver, except that the maneuver is always treated as a white maneuver"...

 

Please explain how that is in any way confusing or vague.  How it can be read in any way other then Daredevil is always white... Without bringing into it the idea that the above text shouldn't be in the FAQ in the first place.

 

Because again while that's possible, it is and as long as it we have to do what the FAQ says.

Edited October 3, 2016 by VanorDM

[Klutz 1,590]

VanorDM is correct here. The FAQ entry is quite explicit. Ignoring it is pure folly.

 

Do what the FAQ says, do not ignore it.

[StephenEsven 632]

I agree. The FAQ is quite clear. However when compared to the wording of the card, it is also clearly wrong.

Card text: "“Action: Execute a white [Left Turn 1] or [Right Turn 1] maneuver."

Nowhere does the card statue that the difficulty is always white.

 

The FAQ causes confusion, when R2 interacts with DD, rather than help.

 

Ignoring FAQ entries is not always folly. We have several examples of FAQ entries that have been outdated due to rules changes or just plain wrong. And in Tournaments Judges are fully justified in overruling the FAQ if they believe it to be wrong.

 

I personally think that just reading these cards, gives me the answer I need. I do not need to consult the FAQ to resolve the interaction.

Edited October 3, 2016 by StephenEsven