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Question regard skill for the knight class

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1) I think that you can. Trigger of advance is defeating of Monster with meele attack

2) no, you can't

Q: What is the order of the skill advance from knight?

Do attack then move, move then attack or move interrupt attack and proceed?

A: Move, then attack.

Check advance page on same wiki for link

Edited by Voidez

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3) Challenge can only be used during your turn, you cannot interrupt an action (such as an attack) to exhaust it. You would have to exhaust it before declaring the attack, not during it.

 

Please provide the rules for: 

1. Where does it say Challenge can only be used during my turn? 

2. Where does it say that you cannot interrupt an action? 

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3) Challenge can only be used during your turn, you cannot interrupt an action (such as an attack) to exhaust it. You would have to exhaust it before declaring the attack, not during it.

I don't think this is right. It's not an action, so you could use it during the monster turn. It wouldn't be a good idea without another skill since it would refresh at the start of your turn, and you wouldn't get the bonus. I don't see anywhere that says you can't interrupt the attack to use the ability (or any ability).

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3) Challenge can only be used during your turn, you cannot interrupt an action (such as an attack) to exhaust it. You would have to exhaust it before declaring the attack, not during it.

I don't think this is right. It's not an action, so you could use it during the monster turn. It wouldn't be a good idea without another skill since it would refresh at the start of your turn, and you wouldn't get the bonus. I don't see anywhere that says you can't interrupt the attack to use the ability (or any ability).

 

 

 

The following is from last September. 

 

Rules Question:
When can skills/gear that do not list a timing trigger be used? Does it make a difference what the skill/gear does? Examples: Living Heart Relic Inky Substance (apothecary) Trail of Riches (treasure hunter) Sneaky (thief) Challenge (knight) Set Trap (stalker) I am not referring to skills that have other triggers, like "guard" (knight) or "nimble (wildlander.) Thanks!
 
Answer:
After a lengthy discussion with Nathan we have determined that if a skill/equipment card does not list a timing trigger, it must be used during your turn. After reviewing the current pool of cards without a timing trigger, we believed this solution to be both the clearest and least likely to affect other aspects of the game already in play. I hope this helps!
 
Thanks for playing,
Kara Centell-Dunk
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

 

 

My reading of that answer is pretty clearly that, hero skills which do not have a trigger listed are assumed to have an implied "during your turn" trigger, just like suffering a fatigue to gain a MP. That is, perform actions step, not interrupting another action (with the exception of move actions).

Edited by Zaltyre

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The following is from last September. 

 

Rules Question:
When can skills/gear that do not list a timing trigger be used? Does it make a difference what the skill/gear does? Examples: Living Heart Relic Inky Substance (apothecary) Trail of Riches (treasure hunter) Sneaky (thief) Challenge (knight) Set Trap (stalker) I am not referring to skills that have other triggers, like "guard" (knight) or "nimble (wildlander.) Thanks!
 
Answer:
After a lengthy discussion with Nathan we have determined that if a skill/equipment card does not list a timing trigger, it must be used during your turn. After reviewing the current pool of cards without a timing trigger, we believed this solution to be both the clearest and least likely to affect other aspects of the game already in play. I hope this helps!
 
Thanks for playing,
Kara Centell-Dunk
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

 

 

My reading of that answer is pretty clearly that, hero skills which do not have a trigger listed are assumed to have an implied "during your turn" trigger, just like suffering a fatigue to gain a MP. That is, perform actions step, not interrupting another action (with the exception of move actions).

 

That definitely clears it up. Hopefully that gets into the FAQ or something so that we can avoid future confusion. If the developers had to have a lengthy discussion about it, then it's clearly not obvious to the rest of us. :)

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Tricky question, but I think it is possible as Advance has been qualified as an interrupt before. Lord Hawthorn e.g. is able to interrupt his Heroic feat after the first attack, resolve Advance and then resolve the second attack from his Heroic feat.

 

Likewise, a Knight should be able to use Stalwart after being defeated, kill a monster, interrupt to use Advance, resolve Advance and then resolve the rest of Stalwart ("After the attack is resolved, you are knocked out"). Both, effects trigger at the same time ( there is no difference between "after defeating a monster"  and "resolving an attack" is this respect) and the active player should be able to choose the order in which the effects are resolved. I guess, it would be different is Stalwart contained the word "immediately".

Edited by Sadgit

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Here is an older rule question of mine that backs up Sadgit.

Rules Question:

Hello! Two related questions: 1) Can "Flurry" be played after either of the attacks granted by "Blood Rage," resulting in 3 extra attacks before the monster is defeated? 2a) Can a Knight who defeats a monster while using "Stalwart" then exhaust "Advance" before being defeated to move and attack? 2b) If yes, could the OL use the timing rule to defeat the Knight before doing his "Advance" move and attack? Thanks!

Answer:

1) Yes, it is possible to play Flurry after either attack granted by Blood Rage.

2a) Yes, a Knight who defeats a monster while using Stalwart may then exhaust Advance to move and attack before being defeated.

2b) There is not a timing conflict between Advance and Stalwart. Advance triggers when a figure is defeated and Stalwart when the attack is resolved, which are not simultaneous events. The defeat of the figure happens just before (and in fact often leads to) the resolution of the attack. This distinction is clearer in attacks that target multiple figures. The attack is not resolved at the time one figure is defeated, but after each figure has been dealt damage (defeated or not), the attack would then resolve.

Thanks for playing,

Kara Centell-Dunk

Game Developer

Edited by Zaltyre

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@Zalt: Do you agree that as the two Blood Rage attacks generate separate triggering conditions (Dirty Fighting can be played twice, one on each attack)?

 

Thanks for sharing your FFG answers. Do you have a document / database with all answers you received?

Would be great for me to check which ones I haven't included in the CRRG yet. 

Edited by Sadgit

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I would agree that since it is 2 attacks, that's 2 triggers. The trigger for dirty fighting isn't blood rage, it's a monster performing an attack- and that happens twice.

RE your other question, I'll PM you.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Thank for clarification :)

There is also another doubt: how "Guard" skill will work with "Rage Blade". 
I assume that during hero turn at least one attack was done. "Guard" can be used during monster turn. Can hero use additional green dice?

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Thank for clarification :)

There is also another doubt: how "Guard" skill will work with "Rage Blade". 

I assume that during hero turn at least one attack was done. "Guard" can be used during monster turn. Can hero use additional green dice?

The overlord turn is a new turn relative to the hero turn. Whether or not the hero attacked during his turn is irrelevant to the rage blade in a use of guard. In order to use the green die of the rage blade, the hero would have to attack twice during that OL turn.

 

Once more for clarification:

Each hero has a turn, then the OL has a turn:

 

Hero turn 1

Hero turn 2

Hero turn 3

Hero turn 4

OL turn

 

All of the above taken together constitute a round.

 

Since rage blade gains the green if a hero has already attacked this turn, it's got to be twice in the same turn- not just the same round.

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Nice explanation :)

 

One more thing: can Knight be immortal? What about combination of "Stalwart" skill with "Mace of Kellos" weapon which allow to return 1 heart if I spend 1 surge?
Will hero be knocked out at the end or maybe this one heart will allow him to survive somehow?

 

I guess that he will be knocked out but there is still 1% chance that maybe not :)

Edited by rider4

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Stalwart makes it plain that you are KO after the attack resolves. It doesn't matter if you recover during the attack- you will still be defeated, and being defeated you'll suffer wound up to your health and fatigue up to your stamina.

The battlemage DOES have a skill that lets you save yourself from a KO as you were hoping Stalwart might, "Death Siphon".

Edited by Zaltyre

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"Stalwart": You gain +2 Health. When you are defeated, you may immediatly move up to your Speed and perform an attack with a Melee weapon. After the attack is resolved, you are knocked out.

"One Fist" has heroic feat: Use when you are defeated to perform 1 Melee attack. For each monster you defeat during this heroic feat, you may perform 1 additional Melee attack. Then, you are knocked out.

 

What will happen if One Fist with Stalwart ability will be defeated? Can I use only one of these abilities or both can be used together? If both - then what is the order?

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As both abilities have the same triggering condition obviously both can be used. Interestingly, resolving the Heroic feat or Stalwart creates the triggering condition for the other ability and thus they can be chained in any order: 

 

Use the Heroic feat, resolve the Heroic feat which will knock him out (=defeated), then use Stalwart, resolve Stalward which will knock him out.

 

or

 

Use Stalwart, resolve Stalwart which will knock him out (=defeated), then use Heroic feat, resolve Heroic feat which will knock him out.

 

 

It is an interesting (hypothetical) question what you happen if one a ability would not cause One Fist to be defeated.

1. Would the player still be able to resolve the second ability? The triggering condition would have been fulfilled at a time in his turn after all.

2. Or would the opportunity to trigger the second ability have passed, and only one ability could be used.

 

I am leaning towards 1., however, I think that in this case, Stalwart needs to be used first because "immediately" is part of the effect. The Heroic feat could then still be triggered after resolving Stalwart.

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I am not Sadgit, but I do have it on good authority that One Fist's feat, like Stalwart, since it openly specifies "then you're defeated" ignores any recovery gained during those abilities. No matter what healing you manage to pull off, you still get KO at the end of the ability, and lose it all.

 

Death siphon is different, because it is actually used BEFORE you would be knocked out- but as such it doesn't combo with the other two.

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As both abilities have the same triggering condition obviously both can be used. Interestingly, resolving the Heroic feat or Stalwart creates the triggering condition for the other ability and thus they can be chained in any order: 

 

Use the Heroic feat, resolve the Heroic feat which will knock him out (=defeated), then use Stalwart, resolve Stalward which will knock him out.

 

or

 

Use Stalwart, resolve Stalwart which will knock him out (=defeated), then use Heroic feat, resolve Heroic feat which will knock him out.

I'm not sure your logic is correct on this looking over it again. I don't think being Knocked Out and Defeated are the same thing as defined by the rulebook. They even have 2 separate entries in the rules. Although being Defeated should usually lead to being immediately Knocked Out as per the rules on page 15. I think the wording on the card to say "you are knocked out" instead of "you are defeated" may have been intentional to prevent such a chain really.

 

 

I am not Sadgit, but I do have it on good authority that One Fist's feat, like Stalwart, since it openly specifies "then you're defeated" ignores any recovery gained during those abilities. No matter what healing you manage to pull off, you still get KO at the end of the ability, and lose it all.

 

Death siphon is different, because it is actually used BEFORE you would be knocked out- but as such it doesn't combo with the other two.

Isn't the trigger for all 3 cards exactly the same though? The rulebook only defines Defeated as specifically suffering damage equal to your health. I'm leaning towards the reason you can't combo Death Siphon with either other card has more to do with getting knocked out by the card before you have a chance to resolve any other abilities. By that logic Stalwart and One Fist's feat wouldn't combo with each other for the same reason.

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I went through all the rules on "defeated" and "knocked out again" and I now think that ProtoPersona has a good point here.

Let's have a closer look. What is pretty clear from RAW is the following sequence of events:

 

1. The hero has damage tokens equal to his current Health on his Hero sheet.

2. Then, the hero is defeated.

3. Then, the hero is knocked out with the following consequences (that all happen simultaneously):

  • He suffers hearts and fatigue up to his Health and Stamina, respectively.
  • His figure is replaced by his hero token.
  • He discards any Condition cards.
  • His turn immediately ends.

Stalwart and One Fist's Heroic feat

Both, Stalwart and One Fist's Heroic feat trigger in step 2. Thus, I agree with ProtoPersona that those effects cannot trigger each other, because step 2 is over as soon as a hero is knocked out (step 3) which happens at the end of both effects.

Furthermore, non-move actions and other effects can only be voluntarily interrupted if the effect in progress includes an explicit trigger for the interrupting effect.

This means in our case that Stalwart can be interrupted by an ability that would e.g. allow the rerolling of attack dice or a monster suffering damage or a monster being defeated. However, as Stalwart does not cause the hero to be defeated (step 2) but knocks him out (step 3), it cannot be interrupted by One Fist's Heroic (and the other way around).

 

Death Siphon

Now, what about Death Siphon? Obviously, it triggers in step 1. If the hero manages to defeat an adjacent monster, he recovers 1 heart and the sequence is stopped. If the hero cannot defeat the monster, he (still) has damage tokens equal to his current Health on his sheet and in consequence will be defeated in step 2. This in turn would allow the hero to use Stalwart or One Fist's Heroic feat in this step. Can Death Siphon be used after Stalwart or One Fist's Heroic? I think not, as although the hero suffers hearts up to his Health in step 3 (which could potentially trigger Death Siphon) his turn also immediately ends, prohibiting the use of any ability.

 

In essence, I think, the following works

Death Siphon > One Fist's Heroic Feat

Death Siphon > Stalwart

 

And this does not:

Stalwart > One Fist's Heroic Feat

Stalwart > Death Siphon

One Fist's Heroic Feat > Stalwart

One Fist's Heroic Feat > Death Siphon

 

 

Another point not directly related:

For fatigue tokens there is an uFAQ stating that if a hero suffered fatigue up to his Stamina and then an effect reduces his Stamina (e.g.unequiping a Ring of Power) all fatigue tokens stay on his hero sheet until they are cleared (source).

A couple of months ago, Zaltyre posted an uFAQ with a very similar question on damage tokens (source). Kara confirmed that a hero is defeated if his total Health is reduced to an amount equal or less than the number of damage tokens on his Hero sheet. Alright, makes sense. Unfortunately, Kara did not relate what happens with damage tokens exceeding the (new) Health of the hero. I guess, they are removed. Otherwise the exceeding damage tokens could lead to a situation where standing up does not revive a hero ... However, that would mean that fatigue tokens and damage tokens are fundamentally different in this respect.

Also, an older uFAQ stated that knocked out heroes can actually equip items from their inventory at the start of their turn. What would happen if a knocked out hero puts on a Leather Armor? I remember a discussion on equipping and unequipping items that change Health and its effects but cannot locate that thread anymore. Can someone give me a link?

Edited by Sadgit

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Based on the the description of what to do when you're defeated, and the effects of being KO (they are different things, you and Protopersona are right about that: any figure with health can be defeated. Only heroes can be knocked out - excepting special quest rules that let other figures do it.) I would say that while KO, the hero is considered to have a number of fatigue on his hero sheet equal to his stamina, and a number of damage equal to his health. It's not explicitly stated, but it would be my guess that a hero who is KO and equips leather armor would add a damage token to his hero sheet to keep the previous statement true. I'm pretty sure the hero would not be placed back on the map in the act of putting on leather armor. I'll look around and if I find anything relevant I'll post it.

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I am pretty sure that I would refuse to play by any rule as absurd as a knocked out hero somehow acquiring and putting on Leather Armor thus allowing him to be stood up and placed on the map because he acquired +1 health from the armor.  I don't think retroactive health is or should be a thing.

 

Whew.  Very ugly run-on sentence, but you get the idea.

 

No effing way.

Edited by any2cards

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