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Osbo25

The Harbinger: First Thoughts

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Yeah, I know it's been out for a while.  When it was first released I had no interest in getting it.  I read the concept behind the expansion, and it held absolutely zero interest for me whatsoever.  Besides, there's already so much expansion content that adding more just seems overly cumbersome.

 

Then the GW-FFG split happened.  So I figured I'd go ahead and get it just so that I'd have a complete set (minus the print-on-demand expansions).

 

I'm even less interested in it now that I have gotten the chance to sit down and read through the rules and the game play.  This expansion adds way to much to the game.  More decks.  Another NPC.  More conditions to keep a close eye upon to make sure it's being done correctly.

 

I will be taking the new characters, spells, and terrain cards out the expansion box and adding them into the mix, but the rest is going to stay in its packaging, likely never to be played in my household.

 

It is possible to have too much of a good thing.  There are some ideas that simply never should come to fruition.

 

This is one of them.

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Must admit Ive had this since it was out and cant make sense of how it works dont know if im just thick or overthinking it. I dont realy get how this works Event drawn Harbinger pops up then what? Dose the 1st omen card become active or dose a player have to land on him so a die is rolled? 9 who would choose to land on him anyway when you can go either way on the board< Sorry just dont get it maybe the digital version will clarify this? love the extra characters though they work realy well

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The more expansions you've in play the more confusing it gets. I've never played all expansions together and probably never will. Still Harbringer with just base game and one or two corners is a fun variation of the game. I use to alternate between many expansions to get the most out of the game.

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I think The Harbinger is great because it adds a timer to the game and also forces people out of Regions, breaking the usual flow. I have played a game with all expansions including Dragon, rules as written. It's a lot of upkeep, but the payoff is great if you're organized and leading the game.

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Yes, the Harbinger is my favorite expansion, 1: because I absolutely love the theme and 2: it shortens the game 25%

 

And like already mentioned above it does force players to move around more and use the expansion boards.

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We've played with it twice and are still adjusting to the rules. (Not because we're thick, but because we don't play often, and we play with all expansions and all rules.)

 

I like it. A lot. I like the game-ending possibilities, and, frankly, I like the chaos and change that it brings.

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Pretty sure Id enjoy this expansion as tried playing with it once  I just can't figure out the correct way to use it thats where Im struggling. :wacko: Like I said in previous post Im probably overthinking it any advice welcome as love the idea of the creeping death (sorry doom ;) )

Edited by Robb 1

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Must admit Ive had this since it was out and cant make sense of how it works dont know if im just thick or overthinking it. I dont realy get how this works Event drawn Harbinger pops up then what? Dose the 1st omen card become active or dose a player have to land on him so a die is rolled? 9 who would choose to land on him anyway when you can go either way on the board< Sorry just dont get it maybe the digital version will clarify this? love the extra characters though they work realy well

 

I was intimidated at first, but it actually isn't all that bad once you get into the swing of it.

 

  1. Event is drawn

     

  2. Harbinger appears on space that the character is on (nothing more happens at this point) and turn resolves as normal.

     

  3. From now on, anyone in the region draws from the Harbinger deck, rather than the adventure deck (city deck, forest deck etc).  If you use the dragon expansion, you can escape the Harbinger deck by choosing to encounter a dragon token instead.

     

  4. The Harbinger remains there until another Event is drawn and he is moved to the new character

    - OR -

    If an omen is revealed (these are revealed by drawing cards or by rolling on the Harbinger chart).  In this case, he returns to his card - waiting to be summoned again

 

The only other rule is regarding landing on him (nothing happens if he lands on you).   If you land on him, you may teleport him to any other region and then must roll on the Harbinger chart - there are some decent results on there, so not everything is bad.   It's also a way to forward along the omens if that is your end goal - there is an item that makes you the winner if all omens are revealed and often the reveal of omens can be initially beneficial to the players.  Or simply, he may be the better of the movement choices (do I want to lose 1 life, or do a random roll instead? - I'd pick the roll).

 

Of course there are the omens themselves.  They offer special effects when revealed and throughout the game (all printed on the card) and if all the omens are revealed, then everyone loses.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited by chemical22

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Must admit Ive had this since it was out and cant make sense of how it works dont know if im just thick or overthinking it. I dont realy get how this works Event drawn Harbinger pops up then what? Dose the 1st omen card become active or dose a player have to land on him so a die is rolled? 9 who would choose to land on him anyway when you can go either way on the board< Sorry just dont get it maybe the digital version will clarify this? love the extra characters though they work realy well

 

I was intimidated at first, but it actually isn't all that bad once you get into the swing of it.

 

  1. Event is drawn

     

  2. Harbinger appears on space that the character is on (nothing more happens at this point) and turn resolves as normal.

     

  3. From now on, anyone in the region draws from the Harbinger deck, rather than the adventure deck (city deck, forest deck etc).  If you use the dragon expansion, you can escape the Harbinger deck by choosing to encounter a dragon token instead.

     

  4. The Harbinger remains there until another Event is drawn and he is moved to the new character

    - OR -

    If an omen is revealed (these are revealed by drawing cards or by rolling on the Harbinger chart).  In this case, he returns to his card - waiting to be summoned again

 

The only other rule is regarding landing on him (nothing happens if he lands on you).   If you land on him, you must roll on the Harbinger chart - there are some decent results on there, so not everything is bad.   It's also a way to forward along the omens if that is your end goal - there is an item that makes you the winner if all omens are revealed and often the reveal of omens can be initially beneficial to the players.  Or simply, he may be the better of the movement choices (do I want to lose 1 life, or do a random roll instead? - I'd pick the roll).

 

Of course there are the omens themselves.  They offer special effects when revealed and throughout the game (all printed on the card) and if all the omens are revealed, then everyone loses.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

2 notes to the above.

 

1) drawing from the dragon deck when you encounter a dragon scale is not permitted when the Harbinger NPC is in the same Region as you, unless the dragon scale is on a non-draw space to begin with. This is due to the Golden Rule of Special Ability Vs. Rules in the 4e Rulebook. The rules for drawing dragon cards when encountering a dragon scale on a space are described in a Rulebook, while the instructions that you must draw from the Harbinger deck are described by the NPC Harbinger card. This Golden Rule resolves the conflicting "musts", as the Harbinger effect overrules the dragon scale Rule.

 

2) When you land on the Harbinger and encounter him, you move him to any non-Inner Region space then roll on his chart. It is the alternative to moving out of the Region to avoid drawing Harbinger cards, and he becomes a tool to harass other characters that are in a different Region from yourself.

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Must admit Ive had this since it was out and cant make sense of how it works dont know if im just thick or overthinking it. I dont realy get how this works Event drawn Harbinger pops up then what? Dose the 1st omen card become active or dose a player have to land on him so a die is rolled? 9 who would choose to land on him anyway when you can go either way on the board< Sorry just dont get it maybe the digital version will clarify this? love the extra characters though they work realy well

 

I was intimidated at first, but it actually isn't all that bad once you get into the swing of it.

 

  1. Event is drawn

     

  2. Harbinger appears on space that the character is on (nothing more happens at this point) and turn resolves as normal.

     

  3. From now on, anyone in the region draws from the Harbinger deck, rather than the adventure deck (city deck, forest deck etc).  If you use the dragon expansion, you can escape the Harbinger deck by choosing to encounter a dragon token instead.

     

  4. The Harbinger remains there until another Event is drawn and he is moved to the new character

    - OR -

    If an omen is revealed (these are revealed by drawing cards or by rolling on the Harbinger chart).  In this case, he returns to his card - waiting to be summoned again

 

The only other rule is regarding landing on him (nothing happens if he lands on you).   If you land on him, you must roll on the Harbinger chart - there are some decent results on there, so not everything is bad.   It's also a way to forward along the omens if that is your end goal - there is an item that makes you the winner if all omens are revealed and often the reveal of omens can be initially beneficial to the players.  Or simply, he may be the better of the movement choices (do I want to lose 1 life, or do a random roll instead? - I'd pick the roll).

 

Of course there are the omens themselves.  They offer special effects when revealed and throughout the game (all printed on the card) and if all the omens are revealed, then everyone loses.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

2 notes to the above.

 

1) drawing from the dragon deck when you encounter a dragon scale is not permitted when the Harbinger NPC is in the same Region as you, unless the dragon scale is on a non-draw space to begin with. This is due to the Golden Rule of Special Ability Vs. Rules in the 4e Rulebook. The rules for drawing dragon cards when encountering a dragon scale on a space are described in a Rulebook, while the instructions that you must draw from the Harbinger deck are described by the NPC Harbinger card. This Golden Rule resolves the conflicting "musts", as the Harbinger effect overrules the dragon scale Rule.

 

2) When you land on the Harbinger and encounter him, you move him to any non-Inner Region space then roll on his chart. It is the alternative to moving out of the Region to avoid drawing Harbinger cards, and he becomes a tool to harass other characters that are in a different Region from yourself.

 

 

1)  I didn't know this.  Thank you for the clarification.   What happens when the scale is the same as the Dragon King?  The rule states that you MUST encounter it - so there are 2 musts here.

 

"Exception: When a character lands on a space with a dragon scale that matches the current Dragon King, that dragon scale must be encountered."

 

2) This is correct.  I failed to mention this.

Edited by chemical22

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Must admit Ive had this since it was out and cant make sense of how it works dont know if im just thick or overthinking it. I dont realy get how this works Event drawn Harbinger pops up then what? Dose the 1st omen card become active or dose a player have to land on him so a die is rolled? 9 who would choose to land on him anyway when you can go either way on the board< Sorry just dont get it maybe the digital version will clarify this? love the extra characters though they work realy well

 

I was intimidated at first, but it actually isn't all that bad once you get into the swing of it.

 

  1. Event is drawn

     

  2. Harbinger appears on space that the character is on (nothing more happens at this point) and turn resolves as normal.

     

  3. From now on, anyone in the region draws from the Harbinger deck, rather than the adventure deck (city deck, forest deck etc).  If you use the dragon expansion, you can escape the Harbinger deck by choosing to encounter a dragon token instead.

     

  4. The Harbinger remains there until another Event is drawn and he is moved to the new character

    - OR -

    If an omen is revealed (these are revealed by drawing cards or by rolling on the Harbinger chart).  In this case, he returns to his card - waiting to be summoned again

 

The only other rule is regarding landing on him (nothing happens if he lands on you).   If you land on him, you must roll on the Harbinger chart - there are some decent results on there, so not everything is bad.   It's also a way to forward along the omens if that is your end goal - there is an item that makes you the winner if all omens are revealed and often the reveal of omens can be initially beneficial to the players.  Or simply, he may be the better of the movement choices (do I want to lose 1 life, or do a random roll instead? - I'd pick the roll).

 

Of course there are the omens themselves.  They offer special effects when revealed and throughout the game (all printed on the card) and if all the omens are revealed, then everyone loses.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

2 notes to the above.

 

1) drawing from the dragon deck when you encounter a dragon scale is not permitted when the Harbinger NPC is in the same Region as you, unless the dragon scale is on a non-draw space to begin with. This is due to the Golden Rule of Special Ability Vs. Rules in the 4e Rulebook. The rules for drawing dragon cards when encountering a dragon scale on a space are described in a Rulebook, while the instructions that you must draw from the Harbinger deck are described by the NPC Harbinger card. This Golden Rule resolves the conflicting "musts", as the Harbinger effect overrules the dragon scale Rule.

 

2) When you land on the Harbinger and encounter him, you move him to any non-Inner Region space then roll on his chart. It is the alternative to moving out of the Region to avoid drawing Harbinger cards, and he becomes a tool to harass other characters that are in a different Region from yourself.

 

 

1)  I didn't know this.  Thank you for the clarification.   What happens when the scale is the same as the Dragon King?  The rule states that you MUST encounter it - so there are 2 musts here.

 

"Exception: When a character lands on a space with a dragon scale that matches the current Dragon King, that dragon scale must be encountered."

 

2) This is correct.  I failed to mention this.

 

 

The Harbinger trumps the reigning dragon king as I explained above. My understanding is since the Harbinger effect is a special ability/effect caused by a card, it overrules the dragon expansion rulebook clause that you must encounter the dragon scale of the dragon king. If the effect from the Harbinger whereby you must encounter him when landing on his space were only printed in the Harbinger rulebook, then we would have an unresolvable conflict. Luckily, the Golden Rule works to prevent such an issue.

 

*Edit: Some have argued in the past that this Golden Rule does not apply in this case, as they claim that any expansion rulebook cannot be considered Rules for the purposes of this Golden Rule. They consider only the Rules printed in the base game to be qualifiers as such. I don't agree with this viewpoint in the slightest myself, but YMMV.

Edited by sanityismyvanity

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I apologize, I keep forgetting that rule changed after beta testing. Originally I was told:

 

The Harbinger only makes you draw Harbinger cards when you encounter the space. When you encounter a dragon scale, you encounter it instead of encountering the space. So, in a way, the dragon scales take precedence.

 

But later it was said:

 

The Harbinger should take precedence over the scales.

 

So to sum up:

 

Scales have precedence over Harbinger deck because the scales take place instead of the draw space, but the Harbinger himself takes precedence over the scales.

 

---------

 

So saying, I no longer like the Dragon expansion again. I need to play Talisman more often. It's been too long.

 

Man, its bad news for the Dragon expansion again. Blah.

Edited by DomaGB

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I apologize, I keep forgetting that rule changed after beta testing. Originally I was told:

 

The Harbinger only makes you draw Harbinger cards when you encounter the space. When you encounter a dragon scale, you encounter it instead of encountering the space. So, in a way, the dragon scales take precedence.

 

But later it was said:

 

The Harbinger should take precedence over the scales.

 

So to sum up:

 

Scales have precedence over Harbinger deck because the scales take place instead of the draw space, but the Harbinger himself takes precedence over the scales.

 

---------

 

So saying, I no longer like the Dragon expansion again. I need to play Talisman more often. It's been too long.

 

Man, its bad news for the Dragon expansion again. Blah.

 

Oh boy, thanks for bringing this up. I've been having a major brainfart today apparently.

 

For some reason I was thinking the Harbinger forced you to encounter draw spaces and draw Harbinger cards, but that is absolutely not the case. Man, I'm getting foggy in my old age.

 

So, ignore everything I typed up previously in this thread. Here are some examples to hopefully clarify the chain of command.

 

1) If on a draw space that contains the Harbinger NPC and any dragon scale, you must encounter the Harbinger NPC, moving him to any non-Inner Region space and rolling on his chart.

 

2) If on a draw space with a dragon scale of the reigning dragon king, and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you must encounter the dragon scale and draw one card from the dragon king's deck, ignoring all text on the space.

 

3) If on a draw space with a dragon scale that does not match the reigning dragon king, and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you may either choose to encounter the dragon scale and draw from the corresponding dragon deck, or encounter the space and draw from the Harbinger deck.

 

4) If on a draw space that has another character and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you can choose to encounter the other character or encounter the space and draw Harbinger cards.

 

Hopefully this clears things up, my apologies for the earlier confusion.

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1) drawing from the dragon deck when you encounter a dragon scale is not permitted when the Harbinger NPC is in the same Region as you, unless the dragon scale is on a non-draw space to begin with. This is due to the Golden Rule of Special Ability Vs. Rules in the 4e Rulebook. The rules for drawing dragon cards when encountering a dragon scale on a space are described in a Rulebook, while the instructions that you must draw from the Harbinger deck are described by the NPC Harbinger card. This Golden Rule resolves the conflicting "musts", as the Harbinger effect overrules the dragon scale Rule.

 

2) When you land on the Harbinger and encounter him, you move him to any non-Inner Region space then roll on his chart. It is the alternative to moving out of the Region to avoid drawing Harbinger cards, and he becomes a tool to harass other characters that are in a different Region from yourself.

 

I disagree with your assessment.

 

The Harbinger rule states: "Whenever a character in the same Region as the Harbinger is instructed by a board space to draw cards, he must draw Harbinger cards instead."

 

The Dragon rule states: "If a character lands in a space that has a dragon scale, he may either (emphasis as printed) encounter the space, a character in the space, or the dragon scale in the space."

 

The character must draw Harbinger cards only if the space instructs him to do so.  If he does not encounter the space, then he does not draw Harbinger cards.  And since he has the option of encountering the scale first, then he can use the dragon scale to avoid drawing Harbinger cards.

 

It would be no different than if he landed on a space with a character and chose to encounter the character instead of the space.  He would not still draw Harbinger cards, even though the space instructed him to do so.

 

The only time that a character would draw Harbinger cards would be if he encountered the space.  Simply landing on the space is not enough.

As an example, let's say that a character lands on a Fields space that has no cards, one other character, and one dragon scale.  The character who landed there gets to choose what he encounters: space, character, or scale.  He may only encounter one.  If he chooses space, he draws Harbinger cards.  If he chooses character, he does not draw Harbinger cards.  If he chooses dragon scale, he draws Dragon cards and not Harbinger cards.  He is only instructed by the space to draw cards (per the Harbinger rule) if he encounters the space (per the rules regarding encounters).

Ergo, the dragon scale may be used to avoid drawing Harbinger cards by virtue of the rules regarding encounters.

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I apologize, I keep forgetting that rule changed after beta testing. Originally I was told:

 

The Harbinger only makes you draw Harbinger cards when you encounter the space. When you encounter a dragon scale, you encounter it instead of encountering the space. So, in a way, the dragon scales take precedence.

 

But later it was said:

 

The Harbinger should take precedence over the scales.

 

So to sum up:

 

Scales have precedence over Harbinger deck because the scales take place instead of the draw space, but the Harbinger himself takes precedence over the scales.

 

---------

 

So saying, I no longer like the Dragon expansion again. I need to play Talisman more often. It's been too long.

 

Man, its bad news for the Dragon expansion again. Blah.

 

Oh boy, thanks for bringing this up. I've been having a major brainfart today apparently.

 

For some reason I was thinking the Harbinger forced you to encounter draw spaces and draw Harbinger cards, but that is absolutely not the case. Man, I'm getting foggy in my old age.

 

So, ignore everything I typed up previously in this thread. Here are some examples to hopefully clarify the chain of command.

 

1) If on a draw space that contains the Harbinger NPC and any dragon scale, you must encounter the Harbinger NPC, moving him to any non-Inner Region space and rolling on his chart.

 

2) If on a draw space with a dragon scale of the reigning dragon king, and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you must encounter the dragon scale and draw one card from the dragon king's deck, ignoring all text on the space.

 

3) If on a draw space with a dragon scale that does not match the reigning dragon king, and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you may either choose to encounter the dragon scale and draw from the corresponding dragon deck, or encounter the space and draw from the Harbinger deck.

 

4) If on a draw space that has another character and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you can choose to encounter the other character or encounter the space and draw Harbinger cards.

 

Hopefully this clears things up, my apologies for the earlier confusion.

 

You know, while I was typing my response it told me that another post was made.  I should have checked before I posted mine.  But it appears that you said what I said (or I said what you said, since yours came first).

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I apologize, I keep forgetting that rule changed after beta testing. Originally I was told:

 

The Harbinger only makes you draw Harbinger cards when you encounter the space. When you encounter a dragon scale, you encounter it instead of encountering the space. So, in a way, the dragon scales take precedence.

 

But later it was said:

 

The Harbinger should take precedence over the scales.

 

So to sum up:

 

Scales have precedence over Harbinger deck because the scales take place instead of the draw space, but the Harbinger himself takes precedence over the scales.

 

---------

 

So saying, I no longer like the Dragon expansion again. I need to play Talisman more often. It's been too long.

 

Man, its bad news for the Dragon expansion again. Blah.

 

Oh boy, thanks for bringing this up. I've been having a major brainfart today apparently.

 

For some reason I was thinking the Harbinger forced you to encounter draw spaces and draw Harbinger cards, but that is absolutely not the case. Man, I'm getting foggy in my old age.

 

So, ignore everything I typed up previously in this thread. Here are some examples to hopefully clarify the chain of command.

 

1) If on a draw space that contains the Harbinger NPC and any dragon scale, you must encounter the Harbinger NPC, moving him to any non-Inner Region space and rolling on his chart.

 

2) If on a draw space with a dragon scale of the reigning dragon king, and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you must encounter the dragon scale and draw one card from the dragon king's deck, ignoring all text on the space.

 

3) If on a draw space with a dragon scale that does not match the reigning dragon king, and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you may either choose to encounter the dragon scale and draw from the corresponding dragon deck, or encounter the space and draw from the Harbinger deck.

 

4) If on a draw space that has another character and the Harbinger is in the same Region, you can choose to encounter the other character or encounter the space and draw Harbinger cards.

 

Hopefully this clears things up, my apologies for the earlier confusion.

 

You know, while I was typing my response it told me that another post was made.  I should have checked before I posted mine.  But it appears that you said what I said (or I said what you said, since yours came first).

 

 

And you are both saying what I originally said :D

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I find this rules stacking the game, especially when playing with dragon and woodland, so instead of drawing cards from Harbingor after an event is drawn and then continue to do so, we drawing cards from this expansion after an event but only for 1 round, and in all regen.

This reduce the Harbingor expansion and make the game nicer :)

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