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GConn

Saber Throw and "must" clause

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Hey folks, it took a while but I got an answer back from Sam:

 

Hello Greg,

 
Yes. 
 
Hope this helps!

Sam Stewart
RPG Manager
Fantasy Flight Games

 

 

On Sep 29, 2016, at 11:43 AM, no-reply@fantasyflightgames.com wrote:

Message from:

Greg

Rules Question:

Hello, When making a Saber Trow attack the RAW states: "Saber Throw: (pg 151 F&D) ... The character must spend (1 Force Point) and succeed on the check to hit the target..." Is the Player required to spend the Force point even if the attack roll fails? Thank you, Greg

 

 

Apparently once you commit to the Action you must spend the FP regardless of the outcome. So that would mean that if you only generate one LS point you must to spend it on the Attack even if it fails and would not be able to retrieve your sabre unless you had a second LS point or used a DS point.

 

 

 

I think the intended options are:

1. Succeed & Spend 2 FP to Hit and catch Saber

2. Succeed & spend 1 FP to Hit but Saber is on the ground

3. Succeed & spend 0 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

4. Fail & Spend 2 FP to miss but catch your Saber

5. Fail & Spend 1 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

6. Fail & spend 0 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

Notice there is no difference between 5 & 6, but 4 is the key to Sams answer. When you throw a Saber your going to need at least 2 FP to return it to your hand, no matter what.

I'll repeat myself. These are the 6 possible outcomes for this action.

 

 

OK, maybe I am mis-understanding Sam's reply to the question, or maybe I am missing some context to the question that was asked, but my take away is that there is no option 3 or option 6. You must always spend one FP regardless to use this power, and if you have to use an opposite colored pip to do it, then that is what you have to do.

 

Of course I am a bit thickheaded so this certainly wouldn't be the first nor the last time I interpret something wrong.

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The way the first effect is described it is definitely as Richard describes it, there is no situation where you are forced to use a destiny point AFTER you attempt it. Say you are light side, attempt the throw and all dark side come up and you have no destiny points available to be able to use them. It is only saying you must spend a pip and the attack roll must also hit for the attack to be successful. If either of these are not true then the attack misses (even if your attack roll was successful, the lack of pip would cause a miss).

Edit - I would reply to Sam's answer and ask him to confirm that you need to spend a force point to try this power and also what happens if no DP exists to be able to use a dark side result. I suspect Sam is answering the question "Do need to use a force pip to use the power" Instead of "Do you need an FP to attempt the power"

Edited by syrath

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Sam's answer is really strange, and short so maybe a clarification could help.

 

If either of you played Jedi Academy then there you have two types of saber throws. The simple one of rank 1 i believe is where you pnly throw it straight a head and then bring it back. The next one though opens up the throw control where the saber swirls and can be controlled and guided. That i think fits more with this talent where the simple throw (not using a pip to hit) is similar to the Ranged(light) thrown weapon but then you can use the other pip to bring it back, and when you do put the Force behind it, you guide the saber and it swirls around and you hit at up to medium range.

 

Compared to the Draw Closer, and Hawk Bat Swoop this is a strange use of wording as discussed already.

 

I mean, look at the improved Saber Throw talent in Endless Vigil. This time it says "when performing the Saber Throw action, the character can choose a target within long range. If the character does so he MUST spend 2 pips to have the weapon return to his hand".

( bold added by me )

so under this same ruling, if you choose to throw the saber further a head you are in an even worse shape than before (trying to get 3 pips) !  

This might seem petty by me and maybe they didn't mean that... but maybe there did !

Edited by Metushelah

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The problem is that if you take Sam's reported answer verbatim to even use the ability you have to spend the force point, the problem is how you do that if you have no DP to flip if you are you are a lightsider and roll only dark pips (or vice versa).

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Sam's answer is basically that you can't fail the roll and get your saber back with only one FP. You can't miss and say "ok because I missed anyway I'm not going to spend that FP on the Attack I'll use it for something else (returning the sabre)"

From earlier in the thread.

Rules Question:

Hello, When making a Saber Trow attack the RAW states: "Saber Throw: (pg 151 F&D) ... The character must spend (1 Force Point) and succeed on the check to hit the target..." Is the Player required to spend the Force point even if the attack roll fails? Thank you, Greg

Sam's answer as yes. Which goes against my understanding of the rules, because or I'm reading the talent correctly , miss or hit you are not forced to spend the force point, but if you don't even on a successful attack,you would miss. Reading Sam's answer you must spend a point on a miss, which doesn't make sense to me, so I suspect he misunderstood the question.

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Sam's answer is basically that you can't fail the roll and get your saber back with only one FP. You can't miss and say "ok because I missed anyway I'm not going to spend that FP on the Attack I'll use it for something else (returning the sabre)"

I'm inclined to agree.

 

From the phrasing, it sounds like Sam's answer includes the assumption that the character has generated a Force point, and that said Force point must be spent in order to make the attack roll in the first place.

 

I think a part of the confusion comes down to a bit of quirkiness in the rules with regards to rolling Force dice at the same as making a skill check, such as the common example of using Move to attack while also needing to make a Discipline check.  One GM I game with has the players roll their Force dice (usually only 1 or 2) and then make the skill check, mostly as general means to save time (why make the skill check if you don't have Force points?) but also to simplify things (we've got one player is a great role-player but simply does not have a head for grasping the intricacies of the game's mechanics).

 

Me personally, when playing characters that would roll Force dice and a skill check, I roll them at the same time, check the Force dice to see what I've got to work with in terms of Force points, and then determine how the skill check played out to see if whether I succeeded or not.  But this same wonkiness can have an impact on the Move power, since the difficulty is based upon the size of what you're throwing.

 

So in the case of Saber Throw, my thought is that it is meant to be a case of the following regarding "order of operations":

 

1) Roll Force dice to generate Force points; if no FP are generated, stop here, but if at least 1 FP generated, go to Step 2.

2) Spend 1 Force point and roll Lightsaber combat check; determine result of combat check as normal then go to Step 3.

3) If available, spend 1 additional Force point to call the lightsaber back to your hand.  If no further FPs are available, the lightsaber lands near the intended target (barring usage of advantage or threat as determined by the player and/or GM).

 

For most PCs the "generate FP" is going to mean "did I roll any light side pips?"  I wouldn't say a PC is required or forced to flip a destiny point to convert dark side pips into FPs when using Saber Throw, mostly as that seems rather d!ck!sh on the GM's part.

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I'm going to give my personal interpretation of this talent here; everyone else's mileage may vary. First, the basic breakdown (as I see it) of how the mechanics work:

1) The first Force point is required to steer the lightsaber to the target.

2) The attack roll is required to hit the target once the lightsaber gets there.

3) The second Force point is required to steer the lightsaber back to the owner whether it hit or missed.

The way I see it is that if you want the saber to hit, you need to spend one Force point. If you rolled a hit and a Dark side point then you can chose to either flip a Destiny point etc. and hit, or not flip it and have the lightsaber fall short of the target and invalidate your successful attack roll. I would never force a player to flip a DP and swallow a conflict, but if he won't do so then he doesn't get the hit either. His choice.

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