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venkelos

Some Pointless Emperor Questions...

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Well, I came up with a couple more questions to kill the time. I was watching If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device, on Youtube, again, because it, and d4chan can make a day after I get home from work a lot better ;), and I thought of these, sort of... Fair warning, #2 comes off as a bit of me whining, as much as asking a question(s), but there's a valid question in there, somewhere.

  1. Other than the cheese factor, could another group of psykers emulate the Emperor, knowingly, or not, and combine themselves into one gestalt uber-psyker? Is there a reason the shamans could, but no one else?
  2. We are led to believe that, in a potentially short window of time, Fabius Bile was able to clone Horus, assumedly to an adult stage, and possibly with much of the same abilities as the original; Abaddon destroyed it, but knew exactly what it was. He didn't have years to do this in, especially if most Chaos forces assumed Horus would actually win. Now, though, they make it seem as though Bile has some trouble recreating regualr Astartes, or anything approaching a Primarch, even though he's done it, before. If this was possible, why couldn't the Emperor make clones of the Primarchs, when they were stolen? He had samples of them; He made the Astartes Legions out of these. Whatever the Lost Primarchs were, He could've replaced them, worked around their mistakes, and had all 20 (21?) back. I know one iteration of the fluff has Him needing extra energy from Molech, that's fine, but while Bile is possibly uniquely gifted, he did it once, so the Emperor maybe could have, too, being that much greater, rather than write them off, happen upon one (Horus?), and then decide to retrieve them. If Bile can clone Super-Horus, and Fulgrim could clone Ferrus Manus, why did no Loyalist else ever go back, and clone Ferrus Manus, or Sanguinius, the most beloved Primarch of all? We know his body is there, (--incoming novel spoiler--)

    because the Blood Angels desecrated it in Deus Sanguinius, I think, and Bile made them look dumb, before robbing them blind, or some such; sorry, but with all the Ultrasmurfs hate on the web, sometimes I just have to rag on the Blood Angels, and this is one of my favorite "those moments" for them

    so the baseline material is certainly available, on Baal. Hopefully wouldn't need Dark Eldar tech to do it, but it COULD be possible. Only three people in this world might like Guilliman, but he could do a lot for the Imperium, if Matt Ward stays locked way (maybe their writing "today" will be better, so long as it doesn't just make them suck, or fade away in the vanilla, again), and he's in a lot better shape, physically, than everyone assumes Sanguinius, Dorn, Johnson, Russ, or Corax are. I know it's grimdark, and so the "good guys" have a limited number of "things get better" moments, but it seems it should be possible. I won't even go into why couldn't they clone Emps, Himself, to make Him a body that can support His super-soul (T-t-S made it seem like the original body wasn't anything special; His power simply made it better, through "magic".)

  3. Since this IS Rogue Trader, I'll tangentially connect to that, here. For people who have read more than I do, what did the Astronomicon used to be? Warp storms were such a big problem, prior to the Fall, Terra, and many other human worlds, were separated, and the Emperor launched his Great Crusade, after Slaanesh cleared the way for Him. For whole periods of that, while He was finding His sons, for instance, He wasn't there, maintaining the light. I think Malcador was busy administering the planet, and creating several adepta, so he couldn't do it, even if he might've been powerful enough, but warp travel still happened. When Emps was defeated, the stuck Him into the Golden Throne, and He maintains the light now, but why? Things worked before that, and it was the clearest of storms the spaceways had been in centuries. What do we need it for now, that we didn't then?

That might do it, for now, especially with 2 being such a block. Anyone care to share some thoughts, while we all still can?

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1. Not anymore really. The Emperor was created from a more pure form of the warp called the realm of souls. The reason the shamas could was in the previous sentence, it was a cleaner power source essentially.

 

2. Because there's stuff of the Emperor's soul in the Primarchs and you can't clone that.

 

3. From what I understand it didn't used to be anything. Warp travel wasn't always done with it.

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Re: Your second point.

No need for dark eldar tech, rip off some Tau gene sequencer/splicers (one of the Deathwatch books), add some Stryxis cloning vats (Rogue Trader, various books), and a heretek genator or 10...

Job done

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The answer to #1 and #3 are similar: the warp is very different "now" than it used to be. The emperor was "born" before the creation of the chaos gods, or at least before they became conscious/active in the warp. The astronomicon is referred to as the hollow mountain in some of the heresy novels, I assume that without the help of malcador or big e that a constant pulse was still emanating from the device. "now", with the warp in great turmoil, it takes the energy of big e to direct the beacon more effectively. I would also think that it helps boost his psychic reach and awareness, considering both the golden throne and the astronomicon are fed thousands of psykers a day.

 

#2 is easier. the emperor had to be there to break off a chunk of his energy to fuel the impossible biomechanics of the primarchs. no clone, however perfectly made, would contain the same energy. cloning the emperor himself is similarly impossible, a few older fluff versions have it that the energy of the emperor basically overwrote the genetic code of the host conception. I would not be surprised if the emprah could rewrite his genetics and biochemistry at will through sheer psychic power, or split dna apart and reassemble the protein with his mind, literally willing the original geneseed to live and develop into the things he could use to make the astartes. maybe it was conscious, maybe not... but without the emperor it seems that the genetic tinkering ability of the Imperium at large has taken a nosedive. Like the legio cybernetica, and battleship construction, and contemptor dreds,  it is one of the skills that the imperium forgot about. even if they could manage to replicate the emperors genetic code into a viable host (tossing perfect out the window... how do you create a perfect replica of something that was created by pure warp energy?), how do you transfer the energy? it seems the golden throne and astronomicon are both designed to pull power out of something, so it would take some kind of ritual (*blam* HERESY) to direct the energies of the golden throne to the host (*blam* Double heresy!), which would allow daemons into the dungeons of the Palace, which according to some fluff is literally at the feet of the greater golden throne apparatus... where the real (1.0 model?) emperor is. what him and the host (emperor 2.0?) think of eachother might well be cause for a civil war. the clone will not be as perfect, but maybe it will be good enough to be a new malcador.

 

OK, just realized this.... Malcador was a normal guy. HUGE psychic power, but normal human man. WHY NOT CLONE HIM?!? I knew his body went to dust but there has to be a sample of his dna somewhere. Maybe I've been reading too much Dune universe lately, but that intelligence, the power, subtle predispositions that made him who he was will be in his code. They could serve as regents, one stepping down as the other ages (like tleilaxu masters and their ghola "sons") until the imperium gets its stuff together and revives a primarch or two. Gulliman and the Lion would do a lot of good, as would some central leadership worth the name.

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OK, just realized this.... Malcador was a normal guy. HUGE psychic power, but normal human man. WHY NOT CLONE HIM?!?

 

Maybe they did... Malc was a canny guy. Maybe he had himself cloned and is now one of the high lords of Terra under a new name (and surgically altered to look differently ofcourse.)

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D**n! Just realised how out of date my "head canon" is! Other than HH series and the FFG stuff, I haven't bought GW/ Black Smurf material for 8 years...

 

Ho boy! You should see what they did with the 'crons. ;)

 

He're some highlights: Necrons are now robot pharao's in spaaaace, rather than omnicidal killbots.

The Wulfen (space wolves 13th company) have returned and the Dangels and the wolves have had some serious beef, again.

The Bangels teamed up with the 'crons to defeat the 'nids (Gaaaaaaah!) The deathwatch turned out to have been formed by the imperial fists in M32, rather than beeing just the chamber militant of the ordo xenos. And least said about what the grey Knights did with some adepta sororitas the better.

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Ho boy! You should see what they did with the 'crons. ;)

 

He're some highlights: Necrons are now robot pharao's in spaaaace, rather than omnicidal killbots.

 

 

I mean the Necrons are just the Tomb Kings in space now. Which is stupid.

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Ho boy! You should see what they did with the 'crons. ;)

 

He're some highlights: Necrons are now robot pharao's in spaaaace, rather than omnicidal killbots.

The Wulfen (space wolves 13th company) have returned and the Dangels and the wolves have had some serious beef, again.

I'd got some idea through reading the boards as a lurker, before I started posting.

Have they done anything REALLY DUMB , like where they offed the Squats , only to have to retcon them cos they've realised that they've made the 'nids so tough that the Imperium needs REALLY BIG GUNS to deal with them?

Perhaps they've decided that the Grey Knights use a purified version of Thousand Sons gene-seed?

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Ho boy! You should see what they did with the 'crons. ;)

 

He're some highlights: Necrons are now robot pharao's in spaaaace, rather than omnicidal killbots.

The Wulfen (space wolves 13th company) have returned and the Dangels and the wolves have had some serious beef, again.

I'd got some idea through reading the boards as a lurker, before I started posting.

Have they done anything REALLY DUMB , like where they offed the Squats , only to have to retcon them cos they've realised that they've made the 'nids so tough that the Imperium needs REALLY BIG GUNS to deal with them?

Perhaps they've decided that the Grey Knights use a purified version of Thousand Sons gene-seed?

 

Not really; I think Robin covered it all.  I think the Blood Angels/Necrons thing got a bit more believable in recent editions, but I don't play the tabletop anymore so that's just second-or-third hand information.  I've also heard that the whole Bloodtide thing with the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle got adjusted to be a bit more palatable.  Basically they've reversed some of the major screwups Ward added to the game (not sure about the whole Spiritual Liege thing with the Astartes, but I wouldn't be surprised if whoever did the current Codex toned that down to pre-Ward levels - or at least I bloody-well hope they did).

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Ho boy! You should see what they did with the 'crons. ;)

 

He're some highlights: Necrons are now robot pharao's in spaaaace, rather than omnicidal killbots.

The Wulfen (space wolves 13th company) have returned and the Dangels and the wolves have had some serious beef, again.

I'd got some idea through reading the boards as a lurker, before I started posting.

Have they done anything REALLY DUMB , like where they offed the Squats , only to have to retcon them cos they've realised that they've made the 'nids so tough that the Imperium needs REALLY BIG GUNS to deal with them?

Perhaps they've decided that the Grey Knights use a purified version of Thousand Sons gene-seed?

 

 

Nah we still got (suposedly) the Blood Ravens for that.  (Who finaly got a legit mini in the Overkill box)

And if you read the Garro stuff from HH you find out the proto grey Knights were loyalist marines from the traitor legions, so we got the traitor angle covered! :)

 

And the tabletop game now has harlequin and genestealer cult armies since, what? Rogue Trader? Wich is awesome.

At this rate we might even get a new SOB codex. :D

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Ho boy! You should see what they did with the 'crons. ;)

 

He're some highlights: Necrons are now robot pharao's in spaaaace, rather than omnicidal killbots.

The Wulfen (space wolves 13th company) have returned and the Dangels and the wolves have had some serious beef, again.

I'd got some idea through reading the boards as a lurker, before I started posting.

Have they done anything REALLY DUMB , like where they offed the Squats , only to have to retcon them cos they've realised that they've made the 'nids so tough that the Imperium needs REALLY BIG GUNS to deal with them?

Perhaps they've decided that the Grey Knights use a purified version of Thousand Sons gene-seed?

 

Not really; I think Robin covered it all.  I think the Blood Angels/Necrons thing got a bit more believable in recent editions, but I don't play the tabletop anymore so that's just second-or-third hand information.  I've also heard that the whole Bloodtide thing with the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle got adjusted to be a bit more palatable.  Basically they've reversed some of the major screwups Ward added to the game (not sure about the whole Spiritual Liege thing with the Astartes, but I wouldn't be surprised if whoever did the current Codex toned that down to pre-Ward levels - or at least I bloody-well hope they did).

 

GK-SoB-Bloodtide was SO stupid, on so many levels! As for Spiritual Liege, I think the fans have covered it, for them, in Ward's absence. I don't see nearly as many GK, or Ultramarines fans, as I do the regular Blood Angels, and Space Wolves fans, so I think the overall "no one likes the Smurfs" vibe that is rampant, even if not entirely true, has quashed that little stain on their honor. **** it, Matt Ward! and I AM an Ultramarines fan! :( At least whoever wrote the Blood Angels/Crons thing, or the BA trilogy, gave me a bit of happiness, when the Space Vampires can also look bad. Done fanboying now!!!

 

 

 

 

Ho boy! You should see what they did with the 'crons. ;)

 

He're some highlights: Necrons are now robot pharao's in spaaaace, rather than omnicidal killbots.

The Wulfen (space wolves 13th company) have returned and the Dangels and the wolves have had some serious beef, again.

I'd got some idea through reading the boards as a lurker, before I started posting.

Have they done anything REALLY DUMB , like where they offed the Squats , only to have to retcon them cos they've realised that they've made the 'nids so tough that the Imperium needs REALLY BIG GUNS to deal with them?

Perhaps they've decided that the Grey Knights use a purified version of Thousand Sons gene-seed?

 

 

Nah we still got (suposedly) the Blood Ravens for that.  (Who finaly got a legit mini in the Overkill box)

And if you read the Garro stuff from HH you find out the proto grey Knights were loyalist marines from the traitor legions, so we got the traitor angle covered! :)

 

And the tabletop game now has harlequin and genestealer cult armies since, what? Rogue Trader? Wich is awesome.

At this rate we might even get a new SOB codex. :D

 

I was going to laugh, because as much as I would like them to make a new SoB book, and preferably a BOOK (not an article, not a split between two issues article, and NOT a pdf only), and preferably a GOOD book, it seems so unlikely. Then, I remembered that the Sisters of Silence are getting some love, in HH game, when Prospero Burns! drops, and that means maybe they WILL step up. The best not-crap argument, to me, has been a lack of ability to make the kind of detailed models they wanted to, but if the FW people have put enough work into the SoS, maybe a slightly more toned-back version, by GW, can finally make Sisters of Battle, or maybe, and this could hurt, FW will make them, instead, and the prices will kill us all.

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I think one point that should be emphasized, because it's just a fact in 40K, is that humans and most Xenos have souls. In 40K. How they actually work is ill-defined, but the Dark Eldar "survive" through cloning because they can bind their soul to their body via pain torture, and move into a compatible genetic identical body when they die so long as it's done within a certain time. Cloning does not necessarily work because the soul of the Emperor (or Primarch) is absent, plus whatever the Emperor did psychically to his children (I have to believe He did something) is not replicated.

 

Also in general terms, the Imperium probably doesn't even think the Emperor needs saving. He sacrificed himself for our sins and now watches over us forever. Everything's working fine from people's perspectives.

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I think one point that should be emphasized, because it's just a fact in 40K, is that humans and most Xenos have souls. In 40K. How they actually work is ill-defined, but the Dark Eldar "survive" through cloning because they can bind their soul to their body via pain torture, and move into a compatible genetic identical body when they die so long as it's done within a certain time. Cloning does not necessarily work because the soul of the Emperor (or Primarch) is absent, plus whatever the Emperor did psychically to his children (I have to believe He did something) is not replicated.

 

Also in general terms, the Imperium probably doesn't even think the Emperor needs saving. He sacrificed himself for our sins and now watches over us forever. Everything's working fine from people's perspectives.

Yeah, it is only from OUR perspective that knowledge of the "imminent" failure of the Golden Throne is widespread. To the masses of the Imperium, the Throne isn't necessary in keeping Him alive; it's just part of the Ascension story, and a "god" can't die, so He'll always be there. Only the people at the tipity top, and us, know that the Emperor is actually tight-rope walking the edge of oblivion, while balancing the Astronomicon, the Webway Gate rift, whatever battles against the Chaos Gods, and strengthening His own people, on a particularly unfair pole, and that that tight-rope, the Golden Throne, is beginning to fray.

 

What happens to the Dark Eldar who die in droves, fighting, then? I suppose, in fluff, they are agile as hell, hit-an-run attack, and escape, and do well, and not to slam on their terrible codices of old, but they sucked, and DE died, a lot. Add to that their own penchant for rival-murder, and that they don't have a spirit stone to catch their damaged souls, and there should be a lot fewer DE than there seem to be. As for cloning other people, like I mentioned, Bile did it, that one time, and I think Fulgrim makes clones of Ferrus Manus, frequently, and then kills them (if all of the Primarchs are to "come back", someday, I expect this is how Fists of Adamant will). As for the Big E, His soul, or parts of it, ARE still there, if they could clone Him, but yeah, I still can see some of what you are saying. Also, and I hate to use the excuse of "it's all to maintain the grimdark!", if it were possible, it's likely SOMEBODY would've done it, by now. I can, as easily, hold it against the Primarchs who AREN'T dead, but not doing anything to help, either. Hate Guilliman, if you want to, but at least he's mostly dead, and in stasis, while Sanguinius is plot-dead, at the moment, but Johnson is just sleeping away, or hiding, in the Dark Angels' base, while Dorn might just be hiding on Terra, of all places, and while Russ might be staying in the Warp to cheat time (Death), till the End Times, Corax, and Jaghatai, maybe Vulkan, too, are just screwing around, it almost looks like. Vengeance, or atonement, aside, they could do as much helping the Imperium, as whatever pot shots they are taking at Chaos, or the DE.

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Kind of an out there question, but could a living Primarch give up their body for the Emperor? Maybe he couldn't contain all of Daddy's soul, and part of it might remain where it is, holding back Chaos, guiding the Astronomicon, whatever, but the Primarchs were created, at least partially, from the Emperor. Depending on who's writing, they also might be particularly stable Daemon Princes, whom the Ruinous Powers helped Big e create, I don't know, I haven't been reading the novels, but it stands to reason that, if any body ever could reinvigorate the Emperor, it might be a Primarch's. Honestly, I'm not sure what else could.

 

In one silly story I'm writing, I am building up to where a Primarch might wake up. The problem is, it's Guilliman, and everybody hates the Ultramarines, thanks to some bad writing, on the part of Matt Ward. Even were that not true, for him to wake up, and try to save the Imperium by taking the helm would just justify everybody's dislike of him, as he finally gets to be in charge, now that all of his brothers would be out of the way, and Daddy incapacitated, on the Golden Throne. As neat as I think it would be to see what would happen if someone like a Primarch actually DID assert themselves the titular head of the Imperium, and Guilliman IS the best administrator, among his siblings, it might be cool if, rather than take power, he did as Sanguinius did, and lay down his life for the Emperor (partly, just because I don't care for the Blood Angels, and the Space Wolves; it could look cool for Primarch Smurf to one-up them, or at least live up to them), but in a way to help Him actually assert control of His Imperium. Besides, with the Imperium being how it is, even someone like Guilliman, I think, would find himself mired in minutiae, with his influence limited to small areas, much as the High Lords are; he'd find it hard to unify the whole thing, as no one else has managed it, either. The Emperor, though, could possibly still make it work, being made of such cheese, and power, as He is.

 

I suppose there could be better options for a Primarch-body, like Vulkan (yay for being an immortal, for real!), or maybe just one of them who was a better warrior than I imagine Roboute was (got his throat slit, after all), but some aren't available, and the story, as it is happening, really only works with Guilliman, based on how he is injured (compared to say Ferrus, or Sanguinius), and knowing where his body can be found (compared to say Johnson, Vulkan, Russ, or Jaghatai). It COULD be Sanguinius, based on some stuff (at least it could, as easily as it could be Guilliman), but bringing him back, just to have him "die" again, for the Emperor's revival, seems irritating, and the Blood Angels don't need ONE MORE THING to brag about. Based on how Sanguinius died, I'm also not sure if the cheap ploy I plan to use would be able to resurrect him, where with Guilliman, it would be rather easy.

 

Obviously, it's a silly idea, and sort of goes against the usual grimdark theme, "nothing can get better!", but could a Primarch do this? Could anything? If not, what hope could the Emperor ever have of reviving? Currently, His potential kids are possibly Chaos ploys, and while His original body was human, I think, no one's trying to clone it, or make some other such vessel.

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