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nickv2002

Imperials and Mercenaries from Jabba’s Realm Spoiler Discussion

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I get what you're saying but at the same time have we seen any 2 point upgrade that's really been worth playing even more than niche? I mean "Under Duress" is the current poster child for this: a card that sounds fun and powerful but because it's really just a bonus ability it's not worth two points of your squad if you aren't completely building the list around it, and even then it doesn't really seem worth it. Two points is a lot to spend on any skirmish upgrade. And I can look at my collection and see a lot of fun looking upgrades that will likely just sit there almost never getting used because they cost two (or have bigger problems admittedly as well).

 

Splitting the two abilities, maybe I could get on boar with that but who knows :)

2 point upgrades are hard to balance because you're now competing with an officer or a C3PO. 

It's one of the problems we're going to start seeing more of because of the points limit. If the game was re-pointed around 100pts like X-wing for example, then you could have a bit more daylight when deciding on point values. A unit of stormtroopers might still be the same equivalent (23 points) but upgrades could be anywhere from 1 to 5. 

Or you start making upgrades that are more powerful... like Zillo or stronger, but have them more like 3-4 points. Then you have do decide if the upgrade is worth not taking another support unit or officer. 

 

The simple fact that Zillo is so popular says to me that it's too strong. The other problem is that apart from Rule By Fear and Officers, the imperial faction doesn't have any other filler. 

Vader's Finest and Generals orders are there, but they are expensive and not quite as versatile. They pretty much only work with one or two specific lists. Same with Advanced Comms... You wouldn't ever buy it for an officer even though they can technically take it. 

 

That's why the suggestion to make Zillo a little bit more restrictive (eg, for expensive figures only) could solve the problem, or if it does remain as versatile as it is now, then simply have it be more expensive is the easy solution. 

 

As for 2 point upgrades specifically:

Under Duress - pretty good but needs a list built around it, and unfortunately, Trandos just aren't that great. If there's more strain in the game later on, it could get very good. 

Fury of Kashyyyk - Also expensive but really helps the Wookies damage output. Unfortunately wookies suffer from slow movement and don't get played much... also the card is restricted to only 1 unit. 

Vader's Finest - does see some use. Not amazing but not terrible either. 

Punishing Strike - pretty terrible. It would be too strong if it didn't have the exhaust condition... but on the other hand, HKs that can stun or an Nexu that can auto stun is pretty scary. 

Generals Ranks - Probably one of the worst ones. Mainly because it only really works with elite officers or Weiss, and that's already stacking the points a lot. 

Rebel High Command - Pretty good, sees some use, especially in hero only deck which tend to rely more on cards (and can bring them back with Leia). 

First Strike - dunno what the hell they were thinking here. It would be an interesting card if it just gave you 4 points. Then it would be a compromise and work well with Jabba. 

So I think there are viable 2 pt cards.... The problem is not that some of them are bad (apart from first strike)... it's that the units some of these go on (trandos, wookies) aren't that great, and that most of the other 1 point upgrade cards are so good. 

Temp alliance is just a tax (which is good I think).

Every other 1 point upgrade card is worth it except Combat Suit and maybe Smuggler's Run. And none of the 2pt cards are worth 2 of the 1pt cards. 

Again, that's simply because they painted themselves into a corner with only 40pts per side.

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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Just to play Devil's advocate and push the discussion along a bit, I don't think Zillo is too good, I do think it is really good though, It would be nice if it worked on only 5-6pt and up figures, like the unshakable card.

 

Sometimes people play stuff because there aren't a ton of other choices as well, I keep forgetting that this game is fairly new and really in this iteration (ie. under new designers since after Twin Shadows) really new.  I think there are some real misses, but a lot of those are from the core set to be honest. 

 

Until something better comes out, people, in a competitive setting will always use what is the most beneficial for them. (ie. Zillo, Gideon, eStormies) or whatever gives them the best bang for their buck.

 

If you have a more casual setting, then you just play what you want, which is more fun anyway for the most part, because you can find quirky interactions.

 

I would hate to play this game at higher point levels, but I also think that's where a lot of the pricing discrepancies come into play.

Most of the 2pt skirmish upgrades are not worth it.

Rebel High Command is in certain lists.

VAder's Finest works in some situations - I'm okay with everything not being an autoinclude.

The Merc skirmish upgrades are the worst, but a lot of that is because so many of the early unique characters feel off balance-wise

 

There are some really good skirmish upgrades that are not overpowered, but useful. Which I think is the best descriptor of a balanced card. Yes Zillo could be  a bit too good, but Balance of the Force, Devious Scheme, Beast Tamer, Rule by Fear, Cross Training, DiploMission, Explosive Arms, Heroic Effort, and even Smuggler's Run are all good (I've played Smuggler's Run probably half a dozen times and always got my 5 pts from it.  Try it, it's almost like a mini-game inside a game, most of the time it's nail-biting as the opponent knows your coming but sneaking it in feels great.  It may not be the most competitive card, but it is FUN to play especially when it wins you a game)

 

Prey on the Weak and Headhunter are great, but the Merc unique figures are too price to make them work, they may be better suited for some of the newer characters (Prey on the Weak and ONAR for example.)

Unshakeable has limited use, bc there are only so many 9+figures out there to use in a list.  I know one of the designers went on and on praising Channel the Force, but I have yet to use it, so my experience is limited.

I've found justified use in the Targeting Computer as well.

 

Most of the 2pt cards are just too much to use and weren't planned well, which is unfortunate.

Edited by buckero0

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I am going to make a prediction and say that the most undervalued unit are the Elite Jet Troopers. they will slip under the radar and be splashed into every trooper and Sorin lists. I dont thein  taking 2 is the best option, just 1 is enough.

 

I am a little chocked that people dont see the potenial of this unit, for 7 points you get a 3-dice attack unit (basicly) and for 1 point more you get rerolls on those dice. They have a lot of health, they can generate evades to stop surges (add Zilo to it then), a lot of good command cards, the ability to retreat or advance after their attacks. I can see them finishing off some units that are at the front of the enemy making it harder for the enemy to hit back. 

Actiavte them last and first and burn your enemy with 4 3-dice attacks.

 

Once your enemy starts killing these, they wil take their time to die completly, and while they get shoot your elite Stormtroopers  are there to kill stuff also. 

 

Among all the large figures coming, I think these guys will be a thing.

 

This. I think they are actually unfairly priced.  I might underestimate the power of 3 figures vs 2, but eJet Troopers seem to have more utility than eStormtroopers.  they have more health by 2, are mobile, can use vehicle command cards, but cost 3.5 versus 3 per figure.  Are elite Stormtroopers' two abilities that much better to match agile and fly-by, and also the extra health, mobile, and vehicle?  I'll admit, Las stand is pretty darn good, but I remain unconvinced. 

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Well you're talking about 15 health vs 14 health and an extra body. The health isn't a huge deal but the extra body does make a difference. 

You're also talking about attacks that are identical, except one group gets 2 the other gets 3. 

 

Agile is nice and will help keep them alive, but stormtroopers don't really care about staying alive too much. 

Fly-by is a significant difference.

My issue with it is that it's a blue dice at close range.... and the extra surge is useless because you won't need +3acc at close range. So you're adding a 1/3 chance of +2dmg, a 1/6 chance of nothing and a 1/2 chance of +1 damage. 
It's nice but not amazing. On average they'll do 1 extra damage than stormtroopers at short range and the same or less (because no rerolls) at longer range. 
That's competing with built in rerolls and last resort. However don't underestimate the extra movement to get away after an attack resolves. 

Finally, elite jet troopers can't be reinforced.... and this is the big difference. You have to compare the Jet Troopers more to Heavies. They fill a similar role. They are tougher troopers that do a little bit more damage but you only get 2 and can't bring them back.

The vehicle cards apart from Overrun are all pretty useless for them. Maybe Fuel Upgrade could see some use. 

I think they are much better than heavies, faster and more versatile. But also a bit riskier to play. 

Ultimately to get the most out of them you'll want to pay for Targeting Computer. They also pair very well with Sorin.

They are a good unit, and underestimated them initially as well... but I don't think they'll completely replace stormtroopers. They work well in certain lists and I don't think they will be any auto-include or anything like that, but I'd definitely take them over ISBs or Heavies. 

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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The Reinforcements command card can only be used for Trooper figures of reinforcement cost 3 or less.

 

(This is the skirmish forum after all. In skirmish you can't spend threat to reinforce.)

 

Gotcha, I wasn't thinking. 

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