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nickv2002

Imperials and Mercenaries from Jabba’s Realm Spoiler Discussion

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I am going to make a prediction and say that the most undervalued unit are the Elite Jet Troopers. they will slip under the radar and be splashed into every trooper and Sorin lists. I dont thein  taking 2 is the best option, just 1 is enough.

 

I am a little chocked that people dont see the potenial of this unit, for 7 points you get a 3-dice attack unit (basicly) and for 1 point more you get rerolls on those dice. They have a lot of health, they can generate evades to stop surges (add Zilo to it then), a lot of good command cards, the ability to retreat or advance after their attacks. I can see them finishing off some units that are at the front of the enemy making it harder for the enemy to hit back. 

Actiavte them last and first and burn your enemy with 4 3-dice attacks.

 

Once your enemy starts killing these, they wil take their time to die completly, and while they get shoot your elite Stormtroopers  are there to kill stuff also. 

 

Among all the large figures coming, I think these guys will be a thing.

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Question for Inquisitorsz and anyone else:

I think that Zillo Technique was a card that was misjudged in development: I find it un-fun to play against and too powerful even when I'm playing it.

Do you think Overrun + Jet Troopers is more or less problematic than Zillo? (I think it will be less.)

In general: I think in general Regular Jet Troopers are good paired with Overrun. And Targeting Computer + Elites will be good too. Don't think either is OP.

Edited by nickv2002

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Question for Inquisitorsz and anyone else:

I think that Zillo Technique was a card that was misjudged in development: I find it un-fun to play against and too powerful even when I'm playing it.

Do you think Overrun + Jet Troopers is more or less problematic than Zillo? (I think it will be less.)

Yeah, I hate that card just because out of our little group, I usually play Rebels or Mercs. 

Zillo is frustrating to play against, especially since it can be used ALL the time ( i know they're losing cards to play it but still)

I really don't understand how they made that card 1pt, and yet still priced Under Duress, and the 2Strike cards as 2pts.

 

@landoro, I think the jet troopers will be serviceable.  I don't know that they are better than Heavy STroopers e/reg and I certainly don't put them over eprobe droids (one of my favorite Imp deployments)  I think there is just some disappointment in the differences between elite and regular for the price.  They've got great health, but I don't count the extra die, just because, normally you don't want to be that close to the enemy with a ranged weapon BG, so their shot will be judiciously limited to limit exposure.

A lot of the Imperial faction got a boost from Sorin + Adv comms, just bc it made Sorin worth his points  I would count on these guys being focused more than the extra blue die though.  1 blue die = 1.2dmg and the surge is almost like a blank, because they only have 1 surge abilitiy that matters at that range.

It's not a bad card and Inquisitorz has discovered a great trick with Overrun and Grenadier for the cheapo, disposable reg jetpackers.

 

I'm disappointed with the eWeequay, because I feel they are too similar to the rHK, but don't really add anything and the regular weequay are useless for the points. They always seem to find a way to overcost one of the cards or limit its abilities.  Weequay really should have been Smuggler-Trooper, just to give the Mercs another trooper to work with. As is, if you want something cheap, take the hired guns, if you want some thing that shoots, take the rHKs. 

eGamorean Guard and Rancor and really all 3 hero/characters are fantastic though.  So the fact that I'm stoked about and will use the majority of the figures out of a box instead of just buying a big box and only using 25% of the figures is fantastic!  Much improvement.  And really, if I already didn't have buckets of HKs, (so a new guy wanting to get into the game) I would be more exited about the Weequay.

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Funny. I feel the complete opposite about the Weequays. I'm no pro-player, that should be said. I think they take a little bit of the firing power off HKs and converts that into a good deal more survivability with 1 more HP and the Hidden condition. I'm a little more lukewarm on the rWeequay, but it's still a very cheap hunter unit. One reason I was so delighted about Greedo (besides him being Boss). I'm eager to try a list with eWeequay, rTrandoshans and eGamorreans as the foundation. A good long range unit, a good close quarter unit and the trandos who can do a bit of both.

 

Thematically I also prefer the Weequays, but that is somewhat besides the point.

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On the Jet Troopers I was a bit disappointed with my first test game using the Targeting Computer, however played them twice last night with Vader's Finest and boy they did some work.

 

Opponent was also proxying and 3 attacks from the Jet Troopers took out a full health Rancor, the last one didn't even need to attack.

 

Manoeuvrability was fantastic as well, being able to move 4, shoot, then move another 4 (fly by and Vader's Finest combined) as well as all the other goodness Sorin gives (Stun, Focus, +1 DMG Surges) they were really solid. 

 

I still think they'd be poor in any other list than the Sorin one, but in that list they can do some real work/

 

For reference I was playing:

 

[9] Sorin  Adv Comms

[1] Zillo

[2] Officer

[5] eProbe

[5] eProbe

[9] eJets with Vaders Finest

[9] eJets with Vaders Finest

 

 

Will try and get a recorded game or two up soon but my daughters' birthday party this weekend so may be a few days

 

*edit* also just to add, Rancor seemed to be decent, but not half as good as I thought he'd be, swung at Sorin for 5, swung at an eProbe for 6, swung at a Jet Trooper for 5, Swung at an Officer for 2!!!, never got a cleave off as generally the opponent wanted to use +2DMG instead *edit*

Edited by RoyalRich

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Question for Inquisitorsz and anyone else:I think that Zillo Technique was a card that was misjudged in development: I find it un-fun to play against and too powerful even when I'm playing it.Do you think Overrun + Jet Troopers is more or less problematic than Zillo? (I think it will be less.)In general: I think in general Regular Jet Troopers are good paired with Overrun. And Targeting Computer + Elites will be good too. Don't think either is OP.

Zillo needs to be faq'ed to only benefit models of cost 5 or more. It's so extremely overpowered for stormtroopers, since the odds of dealing 6 damage through a black die are really bad, no matter what kinda dude you are. I mean, Vader can, but now I've spend an 18 pts activation on killing a 3 point dude that will come back eventually.

I don't think overrun + jets are going to pose a balance issue. It's really good, but it's still just once pr. game if you even draw into it. I can see that being okay, nowhere near as powerful as Jedi Luke + SoS :)

Edited by sejestephan

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Yea I got Overrun off once and it was interesting, Moved over Rancor and MHD-19 for 2, shot the Rancor, used my 4 movement to move over Bossk for 2 and run off. Pretty cool but I wouldn't say it was over the top, think the game needs some more multi target damage like that to dissuade troopers, it's difficult though as it's also effective against something like Vader or an AT-ST

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Hmm, I wonder how Vader's Finest would work on a Dewback, I think they are Trooper-Creature and have a premove 3movement points, then have speed 5. They can really cover some ground.

 

How does Stun(or other conditions) affect this type of movement pre-action, you're still stunned, so you don't get the movement points until you clear the condition, right?

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*edit* also just to add, Rancor seemed to be decent, but not half as good as I thought he'd be, swung at Sorin for 5, swung at an eProbe for 6, swung at a Jet Trooper for 5, Swung at an Officer for 2!!!, never got a cleave off as generally the opponent wanted to use +2DMG instead *edit*

The Rancor takes a bit of practice to play. Did your opponent ever train him to add defense? What was the rest of his list like?

 

For GGR die it's not like you'll roll lots of surges, he probably averages about 1 and can only very rarely roll 3.  This is why I don't think Feeding Frenzy is a good card for him: doesn't roll enough surges and already has good abilities to spend it on.

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How does Stun(or other conditions) affect this type of movement pre-action, you're still stunned, so you don't get the movement points until you clear the condition, right?

Performing a move gives you movement points. Gaining movement points does not move the figure. Spending movement points moves the figure. When you receive movement points they go into a movement point pool unless they are received out of your activation or as part of a special action like Urgency, then they need to be spent immediately.

 

Stunned does not prevent gaining movement points, stunned only prevents the figure from voluntarily moving. (Technically you can even spend movement points, they just don't do anything while stunned.)

 

So, if you have an action to spend, you can receive movement points, remove stunned, then spend movement points. For example in the campaign Fenn's tactical movement can give Fenn 2 mp at the start of his activation, he can then remove stunned and spend them. The "perform a move" from Beast Tamer also happens during the creature's activation, so the movement points gained go into the movement point pool and can be spent later after stunned has been removed.

Edited by a1bert

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*edit* also just to add, Rancor seemed to be decent, but not half as good as I thought he'd be, swung at Sorin for 5, swung at an eProbe for 6, swung at a Jet Trooper for 5, Swung at an Officer for 2!!!, never got a cleave off as generally the opponent wanted to use +2DMG instead *edit*

The Rancor takes a bit of practice to play. Did your opponent ever train him to add defense? What was the rest of his list like?

 

For GGR die it's not like you'll roll lots of surges, he probably averages about 1 and can only very rarely roll 3.  This is why I don't think Feeding Frenzy is a good card for him: doesn't roll enough surges and already has good abilities to spend it on.

Yea he did that once and I didn't get half as much through when he did, i think it's a great option to have and maybe the best "default setting" for him.

Don't think it was a great list was mostly just trialling the rancor, mhd, bossk, hk, Gideon maybe? Must have been something else too...

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Yea he did that once and I didn't get half as much through when he did, i think it's a great option to have and maybe the best "default setting" for him.

Don't think it was a great list was mostly just trialling the rancor, mhd, bossk, hk, Gideon maybe? Must have been something else too...

Yeah I generally Tame up except for round 1 (where I hide in my base until the end of the round) or if I have Survival Instincts. He's a big fat target otherwise.

I discuss it a bit on my podcast talking about the Rancor but I think you've gotta run the Rancor with Jabba, they are BFF. Jabba loves ordering the Rancor to attack & move. Then I like to fill out the rest of the list with good stuff like HKs, Bossk, Greedo, Vinto, etc. You can race to 40 if there are good objectives and your opponent is running Trooper spam because of all the additional points you get for kills with Jabba.

Edited by nickv2002

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I would assume if you were taking the Rancor out for a spin, you'd take Jabba as well to have him focused, and for extra attacks. Not counting surge blocks, RGG has a pretty good chance (close to 80%) for at least 1 surge, RGGG from the focus increases that and if you take into account brutality ( getting to swing twice) you get more chances to roll for surges. Things like Camoflauge also help. I think an advantage of Feeding Frenzy is also the extra damage.

I think the feeding frenzy may be worth it.

Edited by buckero0

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I would assume if you were taking the Rancor out for a spin, you'd take Jabba as well to have him focused, and for extra attacks. Not counting surge blocks, RGG has a pretty good chance (close to 80%) for at least 1 surge, RGGG from the focus increases that and if you take into account brutality ( getting to swing twice) you get more chances to roll for surges. Things like Camoflauge also help. I think an advantage of Feeding Frenzy is also the extra damage. The Rancor won't last long with no defense or even with a black so he has to make his hits count.

He gets the one black anyway though right? Two black if he's trained?

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Forget what I said, I thought he didn't get defense die unless he was trained, I shouldn't post after 5pm

Why the love lost for the elite wampa? The few times I've played him, he was very effective, yeah when you hit an X-man it's frustrating, but putting 7dmg on a guy and then cleave 3 on his buddy a couple of spaces over is very satisfying

Edited by buckero0

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Never tried him buck, think I've seen him played once and that's it. I guess it's tough to get him into melee?

 

We don't tend to see many melee options at all here. (I probably don't help that by playing Sorin lists with a glut of stun!)

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Problem with both Wampas is that it's very easy to kite them at range or stun them before they close the gap.  For 8 point elites you can do better, eg Obi, or new Terro or Shyla.  At 5 points for the regulars I'd prefer saving a point and just running a Nexu (or Greedo or Vinto).

but none of those figures are out yet except Greedo and the Nexu.  Wampa should last at least twice as long as a nexu.  they get 2 free points at the beginning of the activation and with the long base they can get into contact pretty quick.  I'm not saying they are super competitive, but man they hit like trucks, yeah, there's probably better stuff out there now, but I think they get a bad wrap.

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Problem with both Wampas is that it's very easy to kite them at range or stun them before they close the gap.  For 8 point elites you can do better, eg Obi, or new Terro or Shyla.  At 5 points for the regulars I'd prefer saving a point and just running a Nexu (or Greedo or Vinto).

but none of those figures are out yet except Greedo and the Nexu.  Wampa should last at least twice as long as a nexu.  they get 2 free points at the beginning of the activation and with the long base they can get into contact pretty quick.  I'm not saying they are super competitive, but man they hit like trucks, yeah, there's probably better stuff out there now, but I think they get a bad wrap.
Not sure how you calculate 'twice as long' unless you're comparing an eWampa at 8 points and 12 heath to a rNexu at 4 points an 6 health. Also, don't forget the Nexu has Cunning that give it an extra defense on half of the sides of the white die.

Also, the large base on the Wampa is a downside not an upside (usually, though there are a few fringe exceptions). It can't move diagonally so it 'wastes' lots of MP on moving sideways. Nexu has a similar problem as well but it has way more MP per move in addition to Pounce which is just counting spaces so you can turn corners pretty well that way.

Edited by nickv2002

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in my mind, i've had so many experiences with the nexu rolling a blank and losing 4-5 health on one shot, then even with a super cunning roll, all the opponent needs is to get one dmg through.  My experience (in a unique meta, I'll admit), the wamp requires at least 2 seperate activations with multiple figueres on the card.  regular nexu and even the elite, usually can get killed with one activation if that activation is dedicated to killing it. 

 

I will admit that the wampa may not fit the bill for most easiest to use or most competitive, but I don't only play in a competitive atmosphere, and don't only play the tournament maps.  I've played them several times and the majority of the time, they are very damaging, with Beast tamer and gideon (which are in most scum lists right now) I've not had problems getting the wampa where I need him and many times have gotten surge, which with the elite gives you either cleave 3 - gross or it cripples the guy if he didn't die due to stun & bleed.

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Question for Inquisitorsz and anyone else:

I think that Zillo Technique was a card that was misjudged in development: I find it un-fun to play against and too powerful even when I'm playing it.

Do you think Overrun + Jet Troopers is more or less problematic than Zillo? (I think it will be less.)

In general: I think in general Regular Jet Troopers are good paired with Overrun. And Targeting Computer + Elites will be good too. Don't think either is OP.

 

I certainly missed the benefit that eJet Troopers get from Sorin. I don't like their ability because 1 extra blue dice at short range with nothing else to spend surges on is fairly pointless.Its a bit more damage and I guess you can run away, but it's still 7 pts for 2 attacks. However...having all that on a unit that can self focus or stun or use Sorin's other abilities... now that's brutal.

I also have to admit that I'm probably under estimating their survivability. 7 Health with black and then adding swapping for an evade is actually very strong. 

 

Sorin + Adv Comms with eJet + TC is only 17pts. Throw in some regular troopers, officer and probe droids and you've got a pretty tough list. 

As for Zillo.... I certainly find that card to be very "snowbally" against certain opponents, it's nearly useless. Against others it's borderline broken. I think it was designed to help out things like Vader and AT-ST but ended up being amazing for troopers. I like the idea someone had before of making it only work on 6 cost figures and above .... though that might still make heavy troopers or jet troopers too strong. 

Otherwise I think it should not have the command card discount thing. I think those two abilities on Zillo could be split into two cards for 1pt each (and people would still probably use them). 

The main reason I dislike the Jet troopers + Overrun combo is simply because it's so cheap and there's really no way to counter it. Spreading out reduces the damage a bit but doesn't stop it. Same with a bantha I guess... but that thing is 9-10 points and 2-4 command card points at a minimum, and is kind of predictable to an extent.

I like game mechanics that you can play around.... tough units need to be focus fired or kited, you need to spread out against blast and cleave, you need to position carefully to stop a nexu pouncing the back line etc.... Those are awesome mechanics that really show a players skill and separate the men from the boys. Random X-men, damage you can't stop or predict, Zillo etc... can just be frustrating and kill the enjoyment sometimes.

At least with some of the stronger things like force lightning or grenadier or even reinforcements... you can't do much about it, but you can use Blaise, or Spy cards... and also they are usually a considerable investment. Grenadier and 2x reinforcements is half your command deck... that's a compromise.  

If the only the elites Jet Troopers had the vehicle trait or if overrun was a 3 point card then maybe it would be expensive enough to cause some sort of compromise. Time will tell.

For me, the easiest way to see if a card (or combo) is too powerful is seeing how many people start using it, and whether or not a counter develops. At Australian nationals last weekend every single imperial list had Zillo... It's not that Zillo is amazing, it's just that it's so **** cheap. I think if it was 2 points, you now have to decide if you want Zillo or another officer. The choice becomes much harder.

Same goes for stuff like Gideon and C3PO. They are good units but they are bloody amazing for 5 points. At a competitive level, you'll almost never see a rebel (or even a Merc) list without that combo, and you'll never see an imperial list without Zillo.

That says to me they are just too strong.

 

Balance is always a tricky thing, the more cards and units that are added to the game, the more difficult it becomes. The only way to combat that is monitor the meta and make frequent adjustments to cards or FAQs etc... which is obviously easier said than done in a physical board game.

I really do wish that board games and tabletop games had more of a monthly patch system like video games do. Slight number tweaks, FAQ updates etc... It's very hard where there's printed material involved, and that's also obviously how they make money, but I guess that's a topic for another day.  

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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For me, the easiest way to see if a card (or combo) is too powerful is seeing how many people start using it, and whether or not a counter develops. At Australian nationals last weekend every single imperial list had Zillo... It's not that Zillo is amazing, it's just that it's so **** cheap. I think if it was 2 points, you now have to decide if you want Zillo or another officer. The choice becomes much harder.

 

I get what you're saying but at the same time have we seen any 2 point upgrade that's really been worth playing even more than niche? I mean "Under Duress" is the current poster child for this: a card that sounds fun and powerful but because it's really just a bonus ability it's not worth two points of your squad if you aren't completely building the list around it, and even then it doesn't really seem worth it. Two points is a lot to spend on any skirmish upgrade. And I can look at my collection and see a lot of fun looking upgrades that will likely just sit there almost never getting used because they cost two (or have bigger problems admittedly as well).

 

Splitting the two abilities, maybe I could get on boar with that but who knows :)

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