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syrath

The move power

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Imagine the scene a PC with force powers decides to grab the nearby bounty hunter and use the force to lift him up and cause some damage to him. My default call would have been to ask him to do a move check. The recent order66 podcast would bear this out.

Now with this in mind, forget the force power titles and re-read the force power for Move, it makes reference throughout the power to moving OBJECTS, it still makes sense that you can move people with.

Now do the same thing, and forgetting the title name, read Bind and its upgrades. It is very clear to me that bind is the power used to cause DMG by moving the target around instead of slamming objects into them. This makes sense to me because the ability to throw live creatures around is a step beyond holding them in place.

One of the clear differences though is that Bind calls out that using dark side pips results in damage on the target, now narratively in the power this could be Vader's stranglehold or it could be because you threw them back into items/ against each other/ or even up in the air.

The reasons I point this out is that if you watch TPM and watch QuiGon and Obiwan throwing about droids, Binds description fits this better. Given this, I don't think it too far out the way to have a GM call that bind is used to move live targets around and move to move inanimate objects, or if you favor an either/or option ,that you need to consider the requirement to have dark side pips if you want to grab people and slam them around. Esp given the influence point that using the force to cause someone to change their mind against their will requires dark side points, then surely throwing them about the room against their will would be the same.

So what do you guys think when a force user wants to cause damage to a sentient target by moving the them instead of items into them.

A/ I'm delusional, of courses the ability is Move because almost everyone else says so.

B/ Bind should be used to move live targets about, and Move for inanimate objects, meaning the DMG caused when using Move is only for the impact of said objects against a live target and not the other way around

C/ you could use either depending what you are doing but it would require the use of Dark side points to do so. This could be justified as the sidebar on Binds page calls that you could use either to perform the same narrative task.

Up till about 20 mins ago I was in camp A/ now I'm looking at camp B/ one of the justifications I have is that the power to hold someone in place is similar to that of starting to move them around, and binds upgrades describe exactly that. Move only describes moving objects , now objects could include people but why have the same effect under two force powers.

If you did subscribe to the fact that both should be able to do this then it is only logical that moving people around against their will requires the use of Dark Side points to perform in the same manner that bind or influence describes.

Now I appreciate that this viewpoint may be controversial, as it goes against how most people play it and I'm not about to tell everyone that they must do it this way, however before everyone goes on the high horse and answer A/ can I ask you , that you do me the courtesy of reading Bind's power and upgrades as described first before doing so.

Edited by syrath

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Honestly option D is the RAW and RAI. Both powers can move and damage a target, but their methods are different.

Move causes damage through the act of accelerating something to a high speed and then suddenly stopping it when it turns impacts a target. Moving the object or the target is what causes the damage.

Bind causes damage by physically manipulating the body of the target; choking, restricting blood flow, forcing postures that are uncomfortable or unnatural. The "move the target" control upgrade is not in any way linked to the amount of damage dealt.

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i would also explain move being the "simpler" of forms because one can "grab" someone using the force and throw him about similar to what you do in a Judo only enhanced. e.g: you grab his hand and flip him around to the next range band. This is a shorter duration power, and is a simple direction and objective of use not needing much of concentration to perform.

 

On the other hand, bind is reactive in a way when immobilising because the target tries to move his legs a certain direction and then through concentration you send an equal force in the opposite direction (i am aware you can explain it in different ways of course). This is a continuing use power which seems to me harder to perform because it remains in effect until your next turn, lore wise. 

 

thirdly, it's not all about damage. Bind's power denies a certain type of action from the target which is a far greater effect then moving someone a number of range bands. Binding the enemy nemesis can wreck the encounter for the GM or the player and deny him his moment of Glory, while moving him will delay him but won't strip him of his effectiveness in the same way. So in this case it serves the mechanic as to not nullify encounters as easily but still retaining coolness.

 

So i am in camp D with Richard about this one. 

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The answer would be both, as you could use Bind with the proper upgrades (and dark side pips) to both "move" the target and inflict damage by squeezing them.  But you could also use Move, though the damage is generally applied either by smashing the person being "moved" into something or smashing something into the person.

 

Bind is a little simpler, as you don't have to make any sort of Discipline check by default (unless you invoke the Mastery Upgrade), but it's not going going to do the sheer quantity of damage that Move would, but using Move to deal damage involves a Discipline check (generally an Easy one for a Silhouette 1 target)..

 

It's going to ultimately come down to how much narrative leeway you're going to give your players in how they describe the telekinetic assault on the target.

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Force Point cost changes quite a lot too between the 2 powers, and effective damage.

 

In its most simple form, a Close range single target (including a single group of minions), moved to somewhere within Close and being damaged:

Bind: 2 Force Pip cost, 2 Damage bypassing soak.

Move: 2 Force Pip cost, Easy Discipline Combat Check (Aim, Defence, Adversary etc). 10 + Success - Soak Damage.

 

Increase the number of targets, same basic range:

Bind: 4 Force Pip cost, 4 Damage bypassing soak to up to 4 targets.

Move: 2 Force Pip cost, Average Discipline Combat Check (Aim, Defence, Adversary etc). 10 + Success - Soak Damage, 2 Advantage (or a Triumph) required per additional target to cause the same damage to up to 4 Targets beyond the first.

 

Increase the range, only one target:

Bind: 3-7 Force Pip cost, 3-7 Damage bypassing soak. (the FP cost is dependent on how far you move the target, as it takes 1 FP per range band changed, so 5 to move from Extreme to Engaged)

Move: 3 Force Pip cost, Easy Discipline Combat Check (Aim, Defence, Adversary etc). 10 + Success - Soak Damage.

 

Increase Range and # of targets:

Bind: 5-9 Force Pip cost, 5-9 Damage bypassing soak to up to 4 targets. (the FP cost is dependent on how far you move the targets, as it takes 1 FP per range band changed, so 5 to move from Extreme to Engaged)

Move: 4 Force Pip cost, Average Discipline Combat Check (Aim, Defence, Adversary etc). 10 + Success - Soak Damage, 2 Advantage (or a Triumph) required per additional target to cause the same damage to up to 4 Targets beyond the first.

 

 

So its much much easier to use the Move force power, and do likely more damage using it if the targets soak isn't too outrageous, BUT your making a skill check, and damaging multiple targets is very challenging without an immense Discipline.

 

But thats not the total sum of the equation, it just shows that both powers have the ability to hurt multiple targets at any range, with enough pips and xp investment. Both powers have many many more applications, and these are just the overlap. Move can shift very large things, disarm opponents, save friends who fall into bottomless pits. But Bind can shut down an enemy incredibly well; Committing 3 Force Dice to permanently Immobilise, Disorient and Stagger is one nasty combination, not to mention the ridiculous Criticals your able to inflict on an opponent.

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Move says you can move "objects" Bind is used to hold or move about PC/NPCs. So I can see the case for both being able to do similar things, So assuming that both can be used to cause DMG when moving a PC/NPC then how come bind requires Dark Side points when you need to cause damage, and move does not.

It's this last part that I'm looking at for C. Given that both influence and bind require you to use Dark Side points when forcing people to get moved about / choke / or force them to do something outside their will. So my arguement for C is that if you use Move to move inanimate objects then fine, but use it to move PCs / NPCs then I can see a requirement for dark side pips to be used somewhere for the move power hence why I said both work in C but that last similar situation, I would say is a strong contender for house ruling.

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Why do you think that Influence requires Black Pips to force another to do something against their will? Aren't you referring to Battle Meditation?

Also, Bind does not require Black Pips to move the target.

Also, an argument could be made that what you move with the Move power is a matter of a frame of reference. If, in game terms, you use it to move, say, a crate, living organisms are moved in its frame of reference. Should that force you to get Black Pips?

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Syrath, i think you are trying to rules lawyer it too much and i am not sure for your motivation for doing so.

 

Any way, look at page 11 in the book for and example of play and towards the end he clearly states he uses move to flip his comrade into a speeder, so yeah OBJECTION ! :)

 

edit: this is also mentioned in the Resisting Force Powers black box, at it's end as well, clearly stating "...attempt to use Move to throw a character...".

 

edit edit: The term object is defined as such and is not bound to only inanimate matter:

 

ob·ject
noun
 
ˈäbjəkt/
  1. 1.
    a material thing that can be seen and touched.
    "he was dragging a large object"
    synonyms: thingarticleitemdevicegadgetentityMore
     
     
    •  
       
  2. 2.
    a person or thing to which a specified action or feeling is directed.
    "disease became the object of investigation"
    synonyms: targetbuttfocusrecipientvictim
    "he spent five years as the object of a frenzied manhunt"
Edited by Metushelah

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Why do you think that Influence requires Black Pips to force another to do something against their will? Aren't you referring to Battle Meditation?

Influence calls out that using the power to cause negative emotion uses dark side pips also the call out on the influence special rule in F &D , quite a few people call that using it to boost coercion also does as well(one of the upgrades), although personally I don't subscribe to that last one.

Also, Bind does not require Black Pips to move the target.

However if you use dark side pips it does.

Also, an argument could be made that what you move with the Move power is a matter of a frame of reference. If, in game terms, you use it to move, say, a crate, living organisms are moved in its frame of reference. Should that force you to get Black Pips?

True.

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Syrath, i think you are trying to rules lawyer it too much and i am not sure for your motivation for doing so.

 

Any way, look at page 11 in the book for and example of play and towards the end he clearly states he uses move to flip his comrade into a speeder, so yeah OBJECTION ! :)

 

edit: this is also mentioned in the Resisting Force Powers black box, at it's end as well, clearly stating "...attempt to use Move to throw a character...".

 

edit edit: The term object is defined as such and is not bound to only inanimate matter:

 

ob·ject

noun

 

ˈäbjəkt/

  • 1.

    a material thing that can be seen and touched.

    "he was dragging a large object"

    synonyms:

    thingarticleitemdevicegadgetentityMore

     

     

    •  

       

  • 2.

    a person or thing to which a specified action or feeling is directed.

    "disease became the object of investigation"

    synonyms:

    targetbuttfocusrecipientvictim

    "he spent five years as the object of a frenzied manhunt"

The reason I had posted was effectively you can use Bind and Move in very similar situations, if you use bind in one situation and you use dark side pips for doing it you cause damage, if you use move in exactly the same situation you can cause damage and don't need to use dark side pips at all. Given that you are performing the exact same thing why would you treat one different from the other. I'm not rules lawyering because I'm just trying to see what people think about the anomaly that this seems to introduce because RAW you can indeed do the same thing with both, but with bind you need dark side pips to cause damage or you coukd just say move allows you to do the same thing without dark side pips. I'm not trying to argue with the way people do it in anyway.

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Why do you think that Influence requires Black Pips to force another to do something against their will? Aren't you referring to Battle Meditation?

Influence calls out that using the power to cause negative emotion uses dark side pips also the call out on the influence special rule in F &D , quite a few people call that using it to boost coercion also does as well(one of the upgrades), although personally I don't subscribe to that last one.

However, you can force another to do something using Charm or Negotiations. And why should forcing someone to do something be related to 'negative' emotions?

Also, Bind does not require Black Pips to move the target.

However if you use dark side pips it does.

It also does so if you don't use Black Pips. Is it even relevant that you can trigger an effect that does not specify which pips it requires with Black Pips?

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Syrath, i think you are trying to rules lawyer it too much and i am not sure for your motivation for doing so.

 

Any way, look at page 11 in the book for and example of play and towards the end he clearly states he uses move to flip his comrade into a speeder, so yeah OBJECTION ! :)

 

edit: this is also mentioned in the Resisting Force Powers black box, at it's end as well, clearly stating "...attempt to use Move to throw a character...".

 

edit edit: The term object is defined as such and is not bound to only inanimate matter:

 

ob·ject

noun

 

ˈäbjəkt/

  • 1.

    a material thing that can be seen and touched.

    "he was dragging a large object"

    synonyms:

    thingarticleitemdevicegadgetentityMore

     

     

    •  

       

     

  • 2.

    a person or thing to which a specified action or feeling is directed.

    "disease became the object of investigation"

    synonyms:

    targetbuttfocusrecipientvictim

    "he spent five years as the object of a frenzied manhunt"

The reason I had posted was effectively you can use Bind and Move in very similar situations, if you use bind in one situation and you use dark side pips for doing it you cause damage, if you use move in exactly the same situation you can cause damage and don't need to use dark side pips at all. Given that you are performing the exact same thing why would you treat one different from the other. I'm not rules lawyering because I'm just trying to see what people think about the anomaly that this seems to introduce because RAW you can indeed do the same thing with both, but with bind you need dark side pips to cause damage or you coukd just say move allows you to do the same thing without dark side pips. I'm not trying to argue with the way people do it in anyway.

 

Now i understand better, thank you. 

 

After reading over the powers again i must say, as was said before, that they seem to work differently. Move is subjected to Silhouette while Bind is not. That means with a Bind you can Immobilise a RANCOR! and pretty easily at that ! (and that's a silhouette 3 or more). This would only cost you 1 pip with Bind while using Move to affect it you would need 4 or less pips depending on upgrades purchased. 

 

This simple example leads me to conclude, as was stated before, that they work very differently and though there is some sort of overlap between their effects it's not completely intentional, meaning they are not to be exchanged one for the other. (moving a target with Bind is like trying to power your house with a bicycle, sure you can do it but it's not the purpose of the bicycle).

 

So this explanation seems to work for me, meaning they overlap at some areas but exchanging them was not the original purpose.

 

 

P.S: Lore wise i think Bind is an upgrade of Move as you learn to affect things over a multitude of time rather easily and now instead of only being able to apply the Move power to a certain direction (as that is what Move does, you apply Newton force in a certain direction,  you do not pick him up and rattle him from side to side like a rag doll) you learn to apply it from ALL directions at the same time ! In essence crushing him under the force. Sure you can do it gently simply denying him movement or you could unleash RAGE and HATE and do it the other way !!! ARGH!!! (inflicting damage and criticals and so on ).

 

So i would think that, while keeping concentration on applying Move from all sides(Binding him), and also trying to move the target a range band closer or farther, this will be more intense on your concentration and therefore cost more or work a bit worse/ different. 

 

 

Edit: i also now see what you mean about the dark pip, but this is already "paid for" when making a ranged combat check. I understand what you mean because i think what you are trying to say is that it should affect the Force User morality using the force to damage others in such away, and maybe you are right. But then i would ask at what point do you stop? should a jedi be penalised for using his lightsaber, an extension of the force, to cut down an enemy as well? 

This is the point where a force user doesn't have a different way to use this power other then to hurt or menial work therefore there is no need for the dark pip (though he maybe should use it to drop some crates to block their way and run. Another option is to use it to "drop prone" your enemy and run without damaging it) but aside from this, there is no "other use" for that power.

Bind on the other hand is exactly that "jedi upgrade" where they learn to use the Move power for other uses and as such can immobilise a target instead of hurting it. If on the other hand a jedi would use his powers for ill, at that point he will need to draw on the dark side because he doesn't HAVE TO. He can try and stop the fight(by "nagging", immobilising, staggering, etc. his way until the enemy is subdued) and try and solve it in peaceful ways.

 

Wow, sorry, it's a bit long.

Edited by Metushelah

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Good explanation, the dark side pip point in my mind seems to be if you affect a target directly with the force. ie using move means you hit them with the object , in this case the force acts on that object (by object I mean inanimate object) , using bind and influence the force is acting negatively on the target(when fuelled by the dark side). Move seems to be immune from This

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I'm reminded of an anecdote I heard once about the US involvement in Vietnam.

Something to the effect of: As we were not technically at war with them, it could be a war-crime to kill their personnel (soldiers). We were, however, allowed to fire upon their installations and equipment. Luckily, helmets, guns and boots fall into the category of equipment...

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Move is telekinetic. Throwing someone with Move is to pick them up and throw them to the ground, or hit them with a wave of telekinetic force (the lowercase f kind) and knock them over, or something similar.

 

Bind calls to mind the Force Stun and Force Slow of yesteryear. You're using the Force to do something to a person that either paralyzes them completely, or slows them down (I believe Force Slow was actually a power that affected the mind, which is different). You're not just grabbing them, you're binding their body and/or mind. So the control needed to perform it is very precise; a little to much power and whoops, you've crushed a few bones, or twisted a limb out of its socket, or bruised an organ or two. Using the dark side with Bind must apply very strong powers on the body of the victim, which harms them in a way simply lifting someone and tossing them around isn't the same; and because 'dark side' and 'control' aren't good bedfellows, those aforementioned injuries are bound to happen. Take Darth Vader's Force choke, for example: he's applying telekinetic force to stop his victim's from breathing, it's strong enough to kill in a few moments, and doesn't harm the body from the outside. He's not just grabbing Ozzel and shaking him around, he's suffocating him to death with precision.

 

So, put it this way: Bind inflicts wounds not just with telekinetic force or from bumps and bruises of being tossed around, but by wracking the victim's body with dark side energies.

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Bind is better at causing critical injuries and force move is better at raw damage. At 5 force die if we roll high, we have ten force points. With ten points and the Bind power we can deal Damage piercing soak for every point we spend if at least one dark side point was spent. Spending all ten we could deal 10 wounds to 13 people in short range and then Crit all of them (passing a opposed discipline check) at +100. Move with ten force points could do a plethora of things but let's say your are in a dock with several silhouette 4 ships around you could auto fire a ludicrous amount of 40 damage bullets, at extreme range, yeah it may be difficult but it should be if your trying to deal 40+ damage. The best way to kill with move however takes less effort, Lift said object or in this case a person who is the target of your ire to extreme range in the air and drop them (I heard somewhere around here that if you can effect objects in extreme range you can move things that far as well). Both deal damage, can Kill and move things however one can stop and disorient people (for a potentially insane amount of rounds) and the other is more effective for lockpicking and gently moving people (even with use of dark side pips).

I understand fully 5 force die is a little extreme but I like my examples to be on the showy end and I think it shows off what each power can do in the hands of someone who's put all their eggs in the force power basket.

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