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kjakan

An extra half action?

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I posted this on the old forums, but I thought I'd rekindle the discussion here.

I am considering adding an extra half action to the character's action allotment for the round. The reason for this is because it has worked nicely in WFRP and might address a few issues I have with DH. What is obvious is that the combat rounds in DH are very condensed, i.e. they span only a few seconds. That means that taking defensive action (i.e. moving into cover) has a higher "cost" relative to taking offensive action (i.e. shooting).

I've played a few games as a player, and it's been my observation that PCs and NPCs tend to remain in the same position firing their weapons or chopping away at the enemy regardless of risk. Moving into cover takes time during which you achieve nothing (surviving is an intangible benefit, after all), while squeezing off a couple of extra shots may be just the thing you need to score a lucky hit.

Ironically, once one has achieved cover one tends to stick to it, meaning that making a move to another position simply isn't done when doing so would require you to end your turn in the open.

I believe adding an additional half action will make for a more dynamic tactical experience since the characters can opt to make a move without this costing them the opportunity to attack. Also, if the characters can cover more ground then a larger combat area is more acceptable, thus making firearm ranges an issue to be considered.

-K

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While giving another half action might make players move more, unless a player feels pressed and at danger they arnt likely to look for cover, and the extra movement can be covered using talents if the player wishs. other then drawing out fight im not sure if adding another half action would solve the problem you brought up.  It's more of a problem with the players mind set going into the battle.

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Keep in mind that the IHB also opens up the possibilities of making a dodge-10 test to dive into cover when attacked, as long as cover is within 2m of you. People typically will stay in the same spot during combat in the same way that during a gun fight you aren't likely to be running all over the place - barring being ambushed themselves though, generally players are going to be bright enough to find themselves some cover and not be standing in the open.

However, giving an extra half action would create enormous balancing issues utilizing the RAW for DH. The people you are either playing with or GMing for are standing in the open to maximize their combat prowess, therefore, if you give them an extra half action what do you think will happen? Aim full auto's, full auto followed by a standard attack, knockdown followed by lightning strikes - these destroy any attempt at balancing it *unless* you dedicate the half action to movement only (which ironically still has issues because unless you make a tactical advance, your counting as leaving cover and therefore open to delayed attacks and overwatch).

The biggest thing that will contribute to players standing in the open and forgoing defensive benefits is a lack of threat, or at the least a lack of perceived threat. They have too much armor, or their opponents are not doing enough damage - or even worse its a combination of the both. Those are both something that can be dealt with by a GM, as opposed to trying to change the entire flow of the system.

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Don't forget to ever give the enemy this extra action if you are offering it to your players. I still think it ruins the balance of the game though, seeing as it is supposed to be Cinematic, kinda like a Jet Lee or Bruce Willis movie. The short amount of time everything happens in during a turn is personally just right, and you'd have to put some strict limitations on certain abilities, as shown by Rakiel

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 Definitely don't give an extra half action. You would throw the whole system irrevocably out of balance on top of dragging each character's turn out longer.

 

Just have some enemies chilling in cover themselves in an elevated or inaccessible position to show how mighty it is. Or tear them up with a few well positioned enemies with ranged weapons and Overwatch or Suppressive Fire when they charge in willy nilly. I am however against the players feeling that they will ALWAYS need cover, you don't need this turning into Gears of War or Mass Effect 2. Just give them a sense of when it is tactically necessary. Battle Servitor with an Assault Cannon in a ruined factory? Get the hell behind something harder than your delicious squishy flesh, and be ready to move when that cover gets turned to ribbons in about three seconds. Handful of schmucks with Auto-Pistols in the street? Trust your Dodge rolls and go wreck them.


Proper framing and cinematography is necessary for memorable fight scenes. If you want your players to use cover in a particular area, make sure you describe that there is cover and where it is. They should at times feel that they outclass their opponents and can relax somewhat, and other fights should be white-knuckle affairs with hushed breath over the results of certain rolls and Fate Points freely expended.

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You don't need another half action.

Remember there is the "Tactical Advance" action for moving from cover to cover.

I personally believe it is a lack of teamwork that is the reason. I rarely been in a situation where a teammate say, "Cover for me!" or "Covering Fire!" We are too into seeing who get the most kills than combining our efforts.

E.g an enemy is coming through the door - one guy pins them with covering fire, another throws the grenade and the last shoots whoever is left. Or we have one guy suppressing fire, one charges forward and another covers for him with overwatch.

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Ive run into this one with my group not long ago.  We sat down and discussed the pros and cons of several methods for resolving it.  The end result is we use the following.

1) you get whats called an attack of opportunity ( half action ) IF..IF  your initiative roll is at least one degree of success higher than your opponents roll AND your using whatever your favored ONE handed weapon is ( IE sword knife stubber...NOT lascarbines or any rifle types or two handed weapons )..something small fast and lightweight by nature and that you use as a prefference.

2) As above NO two handed ANYTHING...ONLY ONE handed lightweight/balanced type weapons that are your characters preffered weapons to begin with

3) IF your character has the swift attack or higher grade talents that grant multi attacks then you get the equivalent of a "tactical movement" in addition to the initial strike ( similar in effect to lightning strike...at least from your opponents point of view BUT...only for the initial attack) after the initial attack...all bets are off...It works kind of like a surprise smack upside the head for those with talents like lightning reflexes etc...allowing them to move faster/first in combat ( on initial round ) after the "surprise" is done then the playing field is equal again ( more a  less )

4) Yes if your player has small weapons like twin stubbers or one handed blades and the ambidextrous talent as well as the swift strike etc....you get the option for an INITIAL dual/simultaneous strike with both weapons ( again after initial attack successful or not  the field is now equal )

A simple example of this would be a highly skilled seasoned Gunslinger.  The current world recordholder for the quickdraw-aim-fire is a actual cowboy.  heres the link to give you an idea of what kind of speed a metallican gunslinger could get at higher levels  

  and heres another link to give you an idea of what a character could do with a autopistol and even the reloading of a revolver..   
  These two vids should give you an idea of what im talking about with sufficient XP spent on talents AND a very high roll on initiative to allow for this

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Cobramax76 said:

 

Ive run into this one with my group not long ago.  We sat down and discussed the pros and cons of several methods for resolving it.  The end result is we use the following.

1) you get whats called an attack of opportunity ( half action ) IF..IF  your initiative roll is at least one degree of success higher than your opponents roll AND your using whatever your favored ONE handed weapon is ( IE sword knife stubber...NOT lascarbines or any rifle types or two handed weapons )..something small fast and lightweight by nature and that you use as a prefference.

2) As above NO two handed ANYTHING...ONLY ONE handed lightweight/balanced type weapons that are your characters preffered weapons to begin with

3) IF your character has the swift attack or higher grade talents that grant multi attacks then you get the equivalent of a "tactical movement" in addition to the initial strike ( similar in effect to lightning strike...at least from your opponents point of view BUT...only for the initial attack) after the initial attack...all bets are off...It works kind of like a surprise smack upside the head for those with talents like lightning reflexes etc...allowing them to move faster/first in combat ( on initial round ) after the "surprise" is done then the playing field is equal again ( more a  less )

4) Yes if your player has small weapons like twin stubbers or one handed blades and the ambidextrous talent as well as the swift strike etc....you get the option for an INITIAL dual/simultaneous strike with both weapons ( again after initial attack successful or not  the field is now equal )

A simple example of this would be a highly skilled seasoned Gunslinger.  The current world recordholder for the quickdraw-aim-fire is a actual cowboy.  heres the link to give you an idea of what kind of speed a metallican gunslinger could get at higher levels  

  and heres another link to give you an idea of what a character could do with a autopistol and even the reloading of a revolver..   
  These two vids should give you an idea of what im talking about with sufficient XP spent on talents AND a very high roll on initiative to allow for this

 

 

 

Interesting, except you cannot score degrees of success on Initiative, as it is determined by a single d10 roll plus ones agility bonus.  Not unless you house-ruled a good chunk of the initiative system as well.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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no i actually didnt However the degrees are measured in multiples of 10 points ( 10 points over equals one degree).  If one has a sufficiently high initiative score AND talents or perhaps mutations that enhance the AG bonus then you CAN have a actual degree of success ( Unnatural Agility with a base bonus of say..5 ( not unreasonable for an assassin to get at mid level ) that makes it an automatic 10 bonus from the trait..then add the d10 roll in and whatever other misc bonuses and or penalties you might have...and voala...obviously getting it is a very difficult thing to do so it isnt likely to happen often..but it is possible

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Cobramax76 said:

no i actually didnt However the degrees are measured in multiples of 10 points ( 10 points over equals one degree).  If one has a sufficiently high initiative score AND talents or perhaps mutations that enhance the AG bonus then you CAN have a actual degree of success ( Unnatural Agility with a base bonus of say..5 ( not unreasonable for an assassin to get at mid level ) that makes it an automatic 10 bonus from the trait..then add the d10 roll in and whatever other misc bonuses and or penalties you might have...and voala...obviously getting it is a very difficult thing to do so it isnt likely to happen often..but it is possible

 

I was thinking that was likley how you were determining it. 

-=Brother Praetus=-

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