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Amuny

Watchman Elder Mok... Do you see what I see ?

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So, Elder Mok's Hero Ability,
Watchman's Quick Recovery
Watchman's Unity, with 4 willpower.

Makes... 1 health, 1 stamina and 1 movement point completely free for absolutely everyone starting near you ?

Since Quick Recovery would trigger Elder Mok's Ability, the cost is virtually 0. Quick Recovery then triggers Unity; profit.

Have you found other combo like those ? I do think that Hybrid Classes can open a few like this. I've seen some amazing Mages Hero as Warrior Class. I mean, as long as you don't really want those 3 XP skills, that you would usually get only in the later quests anyway, it just clearly gives you the option to pick in another hero "palette" for your class.

 

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Haven't gotten my CtR yet, how exactly do the hybrid classes work? You choose from two normal decks, or just one normal and the new hybrid?

First, you pick your hero, just like normal (for example, let's say you pick Leoric of the Book). Leoric is a mage, so when selecting his class, you could pick a standard mage class like Runemaster or Necromancer, or you could pick the mage hybrid class, Battlemage. Picking Battlemage allows you to also pick a warrior class, like Knight.

 

So you'd end up with Leoric, the Battlemage Knight. He would not have any other mage deck.

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Clarification: That Leoric Of The Book would choose a Fighter archetype deck, insert the 3 Battlemage cards into that deck, equip that Fighter archetype deck's weapons and items, and sally forth.

He will never have any cards from any Mage archetype deck. None.

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Yeah, there are definitely some combinations that are potentially extremely powerful. I think Elder Mok could be very interesting as a Watchman Shadow Walker, essentially playing a very effective buffer/debuffer. A bit of a force amplifier.

 

[...]

He will never have any cards from any Mage archetype deck. None.

 

He would have access to the three cards from the Battlemage mage class deck, which belongs to the mage archetype.

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I dunno, do I seem bitter? Can you tell that I'm bitter?

For over I month, I had completely misread the hybrid classes, believing them to be waaaay more awesome than they actually are. It led me to vocally oppose the complainers across multiple threads, when they decried Chains as being a subpar expansion. I sorely regret that now, now that I realize the truth. The hybrid classes are indeed SUBPAR. I thought it was like AD&D multi-classing... hah. It doesn't deserve to be called "hybrid classes"!

No wonder sometimes another poster would keep saying "WTH are you talking about?" I thought it was this forum's form of sarcasm or something.

All these new hybrid classes really allow, is new interactions from a larger combination of hero sheets and class decks. As if you received revised hero sheets of existing heroes. And instead of 1 archetype badge on the sheet, it had 2 to choose from.

While that is nice, as some posters said: it does not justify having only a total of 12 class cards in the expansion.

Thankfully, we're talking about a board game, not a computer game or -god forbid- a console game. As Matt Damon never said, I'm so gonna house-rule this ****.

Edited by Mlai

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I understand your disappointment, but I would recommend playing them first.

 

I personally think that we will find many combos for heroes that will open up gaming options.

 

My personal meta-thought favourite right now is Jaes as a Battlemage skirmisher, a rune in each hand, a rune trinket and rune armor equipped... :ph34r:

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Issue with the Jaes case is that it requires plenty of items you might just never acquire through a standard campaign.

But yes, dual wielding runes as skirmisher or berserker Jaes does have potential.

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Issue with the Jaes case is that it requires plenty of items you might just never acquire through a standard campaign.

But yes, dual wielding runes as skirmisher or berserker Jaes does have potential.

 

How so? Upon conclusion of the Interlude, you are guaranteed to have access to all Act 1 items. This is no guarantee that you'll be able to actually afford them all, as a group, but the chance to get them all is definitely there. Runeplate, Immolation, Ironbound Rune, Magma Blast, Sunburst, Teleportation Rune and Mana Weave (the only rune-trinket) are all Act 1 Shop Cards. If the goal is simply two rune weapons, Mana Weave and Rune Plate, you could get away with it for as cheap as 550 gold (175 (Rune Plate) + 125 (Mana Weave) + 125 (Sunburst) + 125 (Teleportation Rune).

 

Yes, 550 gold is a lot, but by no means impossible to attain by the interlude. The issue here really is how much the rest of the group would be willing to give up just for Jaes to be able to do it. On the other hand, it'd give Jaes a black defense dice, +3 Stamina, +2 Health, and allow him to basically teleport around, using his free 1 Surge/round.

 

And if that's the goal, you should definitely go for Jaes as a Battlemage Skirmisher, in order to really take advantage of dual-wielding runes.

 

Someone that doesn't get mentioned as a potential Battlemage nearly enough is Lyssa. She's got some amazing potential as a Warrior. An issue is that she can't really take full advantage of the Rune Plate, though, not having 4 or more Knowledge, and I have found no way to gain +1 Knowledge (at least not by the end of Act 1).

 

Edit: By the way, I was just going through the new shop cards of The Chains that Rust, and there's a new armour that is potentially/arguably better than Runeplate, called Rune-Touched Leather. It's an Act 2 Item Shop Card, so it's never a guarantee that you'll get it, but it costs a mere 150 gold and it's got the following text: "If you have 2 Runes equipped, replace this card's brown defense die with a gray defense die. If you have 3 or more Runes equipped, replace it with a black defense die". So, now you may be thinking that, well, sure, that's good, but it's Act 2 and at best it matches a Runeplate.

The kicker? It counts, by itself, as Light Armor and Rune.

Edited by Luckmann

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If I remember correctly, there are at least 2 new runes in the new items for CtR and 1 is armour, the other I believe is a trinket...

 

So Jaes with 4 runes and all the power of a battlemage behind it, gaining Pierce 1 with keen Edge (1XP) because his runes count as axes and blades and one handed weapons....

 

ETA: Jaes gains +1 stamina for every rune

Planar Weapon (1XP) turns any rune into 1 handed mele weapons with the Axe, Blade and Exotic descriptors

Runic Weave (2X) gives you +2 HP for every rune you have equipped

and then Death Syphon, (3) allows you to regain 1 HP and 1 stamina every time a monster adjacent to you is defeated.

Add Born in Battle (2xp) if you can to recover an additional 1 HP and 1 stamina every time you defeat a monster with a  "1 handed rune axe/blade"

 

That's on top of whatever your equipment will grant you.

Edited by Alarmed

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If I remember correctly, there are at least 2 new runes in the new items for CtR and 1 is armour, the other I believe is a trinket...

 

So Jaes with 4 runes and all the power of a battlemage behind it, gaining Pierce 1 with keen Edge (1XP) because his runes count as axes and blades and one handed weapons....

 

ETA: Jaes gains +1 stamina for every rune

Planar Weapon (1XP) turns any rune into 1 handed mele weapons with the Axe, Blade and Exotic descriptors

Runic Weave (2X) gives you +2 HP for every rune you have equipped

and then Death Syphon, (3) allows you to regain 1 HP and 1 stamina every time a monster adjacent to you is defeated.

Add Born in Battle (2xp) if you can to recover an additional 1 HP and 1 stamina every time you defeat a monster with a  "1 handed rune axe/blade"

 

That's on top of whatever your equipment will grant you.

 

Double-checking the cards in front of me (consisting of MoB+TCtR), there only appears to be two runes: Soulstone, a weapon, and the aforementioned Rune-Touched Leather.

 

But yeah, that's potentially 4 equipped runes at once. You'd have to skip the +2 Health from Runeplate, but on the other hand, you're going to get +2 Health from Runic Weave to compensate.

 

The fun thing is that this works even with other characters, such as Lyssa, since the 4-or-more-Knowledge requirement is gone. On the other hand, we are talking about an Act 2 item in an increasingly big Act 2 Item Shop Deck. The odds of you getting Rune-Touched Leather is fairly small. However, should she be able to acquire it, she'd make an amazing Battlemage Berserker, able to turn a Sunburst or Teleportation Rune into Blue + Red, or a Rune of Misery into Blue + Red + Red, with two free surges using Battlemage Planar Weapon and Berserker Weapon Mastery, potentially while using the Berserker's Whirlwind.

Note, by the way, that Planar Weapon does not turn any rune into a 1-handed melee weapon. It may turn any rune into a 1-handed melee weapon. This is very important when considering Battlemage combinations that does not use Skirmisher, because a Battlemage Berserker, for example, can make use of Weapon Mastery even if he only is using 1 rune. It also allows you to switch between 2h and dual-wielding, should you for any reason want to do that, while still using the same weapon(s).

For example, you could be a Battlemage, and you could have a shield in your inventory, deciding each turn whether you want to equip a rune as a 1h weapon and pair it with a shield for extra defense, or equip the rune as a 2h weapon in order to take advantage of something that only triggers when using 2h weapons.

 

What I'm interested in is whether someone can make something really fun come out of the Planar Weapon skill. Anyone have any good ideas of what can be done with your runes counting as Blade, Hammer, Axe and Exotic, all at once?

Edited by Luckmann

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So, Elder Mok's Hero Ability,

Watchman's Quick Recovery

Watchman's Unity, with 4 willpower.

Makes... 1 health, 1 stamina and 1 movement point completely free for absolutely everyone starting near you ?

Since Quick Recovery would trigger Elder Mok's Ability, the cost is virtually 0. Quick Recovery then triggers Unity; profit.

Have you found other combo like those ? I do think that Hybrid Classes can open a few like this. I've seen some amazing Mages Hero as Warrior Class. I mean, as long as you don't really want those 3 XP skills, that you would usually get only in the later quests anyway, it just clearly gives you the option to pick in another hero "palette" for your class.

 

...and that is why Elder Mok is still broken.

Restricting his ability to once per round is an easy houserule to fix that, but once every turn is extremely exploitable.

Jaes as a dual rune wilding warrior is likely the most obvious use, it makes him pretty strong, but at least itis rather dependent on getting the items (and he will start out with weapons which do nothing at all for his hero abilities and feat, which mitigates it to quite some degree. Paying for huge gains later with a very bad start is not necessarily the best choice in Descent, as you usually need your power early on to get enough gold and such to finance your later exploits).

 

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What I'm interested in is whether someone can make something really fun come out of the Planar Weapon skill. Anyone have any good ideas of what can be done with your runes counting as Blade, Hammer, Axe and Exotic, all at once?

 

The only thing I see are related to axe/blade (skirmisher) and 1 handed/2handed (berserker/marshall/skirmisher)

 

Which was got me looking at the skirmisher in the first place, because I was trying to find out the reason to make the weapon Exotic. If Logan Lashley could be a battle mage, or if Battle mage allowed you to choose Treasure hunter as a class, then I could see the use of Exotic, but not how it's currently set up.

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So, Elder Mok's Hero Ability,

Watchman's Quick Recovery

Watchman's Unity, with 4 willpower.

Makes... 1 health, 1 stamina and 1 movement point completely free for absolutely everyone starting near you ?

Since Quick Recovery would trigger Elder Mok's Ability, the cost is virtually 0. Quick Recovery then triggers Unity; profit.

Have you found other combo like those ? I do think that Hybrid Classes can open a few like this. I've seen some amazing Mages Hero as Warrior Class. I mean, as long as you don't really want those 3 XP skills, that you would usually get only in the later quests anyway, it just clearly gives you the option to pick in another hero "palette" for your class.

 

I think a lot of people (me included) focused on the latter part of this post, and somewhat forgetting the core of the OP: Elder Mok as a Watchman. As I was writing the reply to Ceasarsalad below, I came to realize that while this is still potentially a very strong combination, it's not as strong as it might first be interpreted.

Yes, Quick Recovery can be used to give any hero in your line of sight (including yourself, since you are within LoS of yourself) +1 movement point and +1 health, at the start of their turn. It does not exhaust, so you can use it as much as you want, but it does cost 1 stamina time.

This will, in turn, trigger Elder Mok's Hero Ability, meaning that once per turn, when another hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 or more health or fatigue, you may recover 1 health or 1 fatigue.

 

Unity, then, the 3xp Watchman card, can be used when a hero in your line of sight recovers 1 or more health, and will make that hero recover 1 stamina. You then test Willpower (of which Mok has 4), and if you fail, the card is exhausted and can't be used until the next round.

 

So, it's actually a far cry from "1 health, 1 stamina and 1 movement point completely free for absolutely everyone starting near you". Because while Elder Mok can spend 1 fatigue to give anyone in his line of sight 1 health and 1 movement point, and 1 fatigue, and then recover that 1 spent point of fatigue, it can only be recovered once per turn. If he does this to a remaining 3 heroes (assuming a full game), it's going to cost him 3 fatigue. And he can't trigger his Hero Ability on himself.

 

Provided he makes all of his Willpower tests, he also makes everyone recouperate 1 fatigue, which, granted, can potentially make him save another point of fatigue when using Quick Recovery on himself. So he can essentially use Quick Recovery on himself for free, when combined with Unity, and he can use Quick Recovery for free once on someone else, thanks to his Hero Ability.

But this assumes a great many things. For starters, to even get this ball rolling, someone has to already be injured. You cannot recover health above your threshold, meaning that in order to trigger either (or both) his hero ability and/or Unity, Quick Recovery has to actually heal someone. It also assumes that he keeps making his Willpower checks.

I'm not arguing that this isn't overpowered - it may very well still be - I just want the facts to be straight, and it's not quite, quite as broken as it first may have sounded.

 

The fact that both Quick Recovery and Unity comes with secondary functions just makes the whole thing better (or worse, depending on how you see it). For those that may not have the cards yet, or that don't have them on hand, Quick Recovery also allows any hero (at a cost of 1 stamina for Elder Mok) to consume an unused Search Card to discard a Condition Card. Unity, at no cost whatsoever, allows any Hero to use any Search Cards held by Elder Mok as if they were carrying them themselves.

And as a side note, we shouldn't forget the Trailblazer Skill of the Watchman, for 2xp. It exhausts, sure, but it allows the Watchman and each hero adjacent to it to immediately move 1 space, and can be used at any point during a hero's turn. And it costs nothing at all to use. If nothing else, just having the card means you (and potentially the whole team) gets an extra movement point per turn.

 

Combining Unity/Quick Recovery with the Treasure Hunter's ability to rack up tons of search cards (and the search cards it wants) could be an incredibly powerful combination, with the Treasure Hunter's Gold Rush, just drop all Search Cards acquired onto the Watchman and then use those freely anyway, while giving the Watchman 5 extra movement points.

 

Shadow Walker would turn Elder Mok into an amazing buffer/debuffer, using Dark Servant and Endless Void both to keep your fatigue up and to collect more Search Cards to be used by anyone on the team when in need. Dark Shift would add further movement bonuses to the team, while also increasing total Stamina.

 

There's some really good potential here.

 

 

The thing that makes hybrid classes a good addition is not necessarily the fact that you combine 2 classes, but rather that it opens up 6 classes to each hero. In effect doubling the classes a hero can pick.

 

 

Well, it's a good tactic if that's what you're after - more classes - since it's going to add multiplicatively.

 

However, criticism towards the hybrid classes as being a good addition is rarely based on whether it adds choices or not, or how many, but whether those choices are good for the game.

 

Overall, I can honestly see some very real potential balance issues. I'm not entirely convinced that they are massive, honestly, but the concern is legitimate and shouldn't be dismissed.

 

Elder Mok is probably the best example I've seen so far, since Elder Mok Watchman Shadow Walker, Watchman Treasure Hunter, or Watchman Stalker could all be reliably and dependably built, without relying on any gearing or any risk of late blooming. Elder Mok was already considered a very strong hero, especially as a Bard, but as a Watchman, he's likely to go a bit beyond even that, since he can still reliably and consciously trigger his own Hero Ability.

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Overall, I can honestly see some very real potential balance issues. I'm not entirely convinced that they are massive, honestly, but the concern is legitimate and shouldn't be dismissed.

Elder Mok is probably the best example I've seen so far, since Elder Mok Watchman Shadow Walker, Watchman Treasure Hunter, or Watchman Stalker could all be reliably and dependably built, without relying on any gearing or any risk of late blooming. Elder Mok was already considered a very strong hero, especially as a Bard, but as a Watchman, he's likely to go a bit beyond even that, since he can still reliably and consciously trigger his own Hero Ability.

Treasure Hunter and Watchman synergize really well, which is an example of the hybrid deck making a strong standard deck useful (I won't go so far as to say "better", as the TH 3XP skills are pretty useful, too.) I prefer the cases where the hybrid deck makes weaker standard classes viable.

Even so, with all of these Mok combos, as an OL I'd still be more threatened by a bard Mok, who also didn't depend on gear. The fact is that Mok has a hero ability that lets him benefit from the healing of others every turn, so abilities which heal every turn benefit him incredibly well. Before the bard (and now the watchman) very few of the healer skills allowed wound or fatigue recovery outside the healer's turn.

Edited by Zaltyre

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I just realized something. Has anyone taken a look at the Steelcaster's Shield Mage skill?

 

It's actually very interesting. 1 Shield you have equipped loses 1 hand icon. This could potentially be any shield you want, at any one time, but what's interesting is that this'll actually let you wield two shields at once, along with a one-handed weapon. The Steelcaster is obviously meant to be using Runes, which will still be two-handed for the Steelcaster (as opposed to the Battlemage), and Shield Mage is likely intended as a way for him to still use a shield.

But there's actually very little tying the Steelcaster to runes, even if you take the Rune Grafting skill for 1 xp. If you ignore Rune Grafting altogether and simply throw on some Heavy Armour, you could potentially have 1 Heavy Armour and 2 differen shields, all at once. If you feel no need for attacking at all, or just want to pound with your fists, feel free to grab three shields and a heavy armour.

 

While that may sound silly, many mages have utility spells that makes them depend less on their equipped weapon, and I cannot think of that many ways to kill someone that's rolling around in multiple grey/black dies. Trenloe the Strong as a Steelcaster Necromancer or a Steelcaster Geomancer comes to mind.

But even just 1 extra shield is potentially a significant boost, honestly, and the fact that you can also defend others with it - without even exhausting it at the mere cost of 1 fatigue - just adds to that.

 

 

Overall, I can honestly see some very real potential balance issues. I'm not entirely convinced that they are massive, honestly, but the concern is legitimate and shouldn't be dismissed.

Elder Mok is probably the best example I've seen so far, since Elder Mok Watchman Shadow Walker, Watchman Treasure Hunter, or Watchman Stalker could all be reliably and dependably built, without relying on any gearing or any risk of late blooming. Elder Mok was already considered a very strong hero, especially as a Bard, but as a Watchman, he's likely to go a bit beyond even that, since he can still reliably and consciously trigger his own Hero Ability.

Treasure Hunter and Watchman synergize really well, which is an example of the hybrid deck making a strong standard deck useful (I won't go so far as to say "better", as the TH 3XP skills are pretty useful, too.) I prefer the cases where the hybrid deck makes weaker standard classes viable.

Even so, with all of these Mok combos, as an OL I'd still be more threatened by a bard Mok, who also didn't depend on gear. The fact is that Mok has a hero ability that lets him benefit from the healing of others every turn, so abilities which heal every turn benefit him incredibly well. Before the bard (and now the watchman) very few of the healer skills allowed wound or fatigue recovery outside the healer's turn.

 

 

I don't disagree. I think the Hybrid Classes are pretty cool, although I'm still going to bellyache over the Monk, and I love the idea of doing these combos. But I do think it's an example of making already very strong base decks potentially stronger. The example of Bard is a good one, I think. I'm not so sure of myself as to say that it's going to be overpowered, but it's debatable whether Elder Mok as a Bard isn't already overpowered, which skews our entire perception. If Elder Mok as a Bard becomes the measuring stick as to what constitutes some kind of baseline, we're in for one hell of a ride.

 

So I dunno. I'm excited and afraid.

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Strong characters will continue to be strong using Hybrid classes and some of the weaker heroes can gain some benefit from them too, making them more useful.

 

I'm thinking mostly of mages that have abilities or heroic feat that seem unmage-like (like allowing monsters to be adjacent to you, for example... :P ). Being a battle mage would allow them to use their abilities/feat, and use their new warrior class skills.

 

I'm sure heroes of other archetypes can benefit as well. (Logan Lashley as a monk prophet... :P Iron Flail is an exotic weapon)

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Indeed- Dezra and Lyssa make fine battlemages for this reason. So does Leoric, in fact.

 

It's funny that I never even looked at or considered Leoric as a Battlemage, but both his ability and his feat is very appropriate for a defensive melee caster.

 

 

Steelcaster necro could be big, but most mage classes (even geo) require the hero to have a magic weapon to work well.

 

Well there are non-rune magic weapons! Even one-handed ones! Like.. uhm.. the Shards of Ithyndrus Manor of Ravens Relic and.. uhm.. Lifedrain Scepter.

 

That being said, it would be funny to have a massively defensive Steelcaster Geomancer weakening enemies with the Lifedrain Scepter. It's even one-handed, and with a green dice, it could weaken reliably, and entire groups with Earthen Anguish.

 

Edit: MoB/CtR actually added quite a few options here. Battle Tome is 1h ranged magic weapon, and is Act 1. It's not stellar for the job, though, especially if you haven't got high Knowledge. There's also the Bone Wand and the Lightning Javelin. Both are Act II, however, so they cannot be depended upon. Lightning Javelin would be an really good and appropriate weapon for a Trenloe the Strong Steelcaster Geomancer, however. Yellow, Blue, Blue, +Might in Range, and Surge for +2 Damage, Surge for Stun. The odds of getting it, though, are abysmal.

Edited by Luckmann

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Right- I'm not saying your scenario of two shields and a magic weapon is non-existent. My point is mainly that it's relatively uncommon, and not always certain. You've actually got me thinking now about a hero who doesn't have a weapon equipped at all, but just has two shields.  

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I think a lot of people (me included) focused on the latter part of this post, and somewhat forgetting the core of the OP: Elder Mok as a Watchman. As I was writing the reply to Ceasarsalad below, I came to realize that while this is still potentially a very strong combination, it's not as strong as it might first be interpreted.

Yes, Quick Recovery can be used to give any hero in your line of sight (including yourself, since you are within LoS of yourself) +1 movement point and +1 health, at the start of their turn. It does not exhaust, so you can use it as much as you want, but it does cost 1 stamina time.

This will, in turn, trigger Elder Mok's Hero Ability, meaning that once per turn, when another hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 or more health or fatigue, you may recover 1 health or 1 fatigue.

 

Unity, then, the 3xp Watchman card, can be used when a hero in your line of sight recovers 1 or more health, and will make that hero recover 1 stamina. You then test Willpower (of which Mok has 4), and if you fail, the card is exhausted and can't be used until the next round.

 

So, it's actually a far cry from "1 health, 1 stamina and 1 movement point completely free for absolutely everyone starting near you". Because while Elder Mok can spend 1 fatigue to give anyone in his line of sight 1 health and 1 movement point, and 1 fatigue, and then recover that 1 spent point of fatigue, it can only be recovered once per turn. If he does this to a remaining 3 heroes (assuming a full game), it's going to cost him 3 fatigue. And he can't trigger his Hero Ability on himself.

 

Provided he makes all of his Willpower tests, he also makes everyone recouperate 1 fatigue, which, granted, can potentially make him save another point of fatigue when using Quick Recovery on himself. So he can essentially use Quick Recovery on himself for free, when combined with Unity, and he can use Quick Recovery for free once on someone else, thanks to his Hero Ability.

But this assumes a great many things. For starters, to even get this ball rolling, someone has to already be injured. You cannot recover health above your threshold, meaning that in order to trigger either (or both) his hero ability and/or Unity, Quick Recovery has to actually heal someone. It also assumes that he keeps making his Willpower checks.

I'm not arguing that this isn't overpowered - it may very well still be - I just want the facts to be straight, and it's not quite, quite as broken as it first may have sounded.

You misunderstood Elder Mok's passive by a huge margin.

He can restore 1 stam or health per TURN, not per round. So he can use quick recovery for free for every hero every round. The only requirement is to have at least 1 stam left to begin the wheel.

Where the bard song are on his turn, so he uses his passive only once.

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I dunno, do I seem bitter? Can you tell that I'm bitter?

For over I month, I had completely misread the hybrid classes, believing them to be waaaay more awesome than they actually are. It led me to vocally oppose the complainers across multiple threads, when they decried Chains as being a subpar expansion. I sorely regret that now, now that I realize the truth. The hybrid classes are indeed SUBPAR. I thought it was like AD&D multi-classing... hah. It doesn't deserve to be called "hybrid classes"!

No wonder sometimes another poster would keep saying "WTH are you talking about?" I thought it was this forum's form of sarcasm or something.

All these new hybrid classes really allow, is new interactions from a larger combination of hero sheets and class decks. As if you received revised hero sheets of existing heroes. And instead of 1 archetype badge on the sheet, it had 2 to choose from.

While that is nice, as some posters said: it does not justify having only a total of 12 class cards in the expansion.

Thankfully, we're talking about a board game, not a computer game or -god forbid- a console game. As Matt Damon never said, I'm so gonna house-rule this ****.

 

You we're probably talking about my threads. "state of expansions" or something similar. It really is 3 cards per and passive abilities on those cards, but there are good combinations. I'm content with what's given in CTR, but not ecstatic. 

 

As for the mentioning of Jaes, Rune plate does not have the rune trait, but you can buy it at the interlude, unlike the leather. I've also proxied the battlemage class in our campaign, and it'd a damage sponge. We have trenlo, as a marshal with aurium plate, and trenlo is quicker to die. They both can't be stamina drained very easily too, so they are constantly tripped as the only means to dealing with them.

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I think a lot of people (me included) focused on the latter part of this post, and somewhat forgetting the core of the OP: Elder Mok as a Watchman. As I was writing the reply to Ceasarsalad below, I came to realize that while this is still potentially a very strong combination, it's not as strong as it might first be interpreted.

Yes, Quick Recovery can be used to give any hero in your line of sight (including yourself, since you are within LoS of yourself) +1 movement point and +1 health, at the start of their turn. It does not exhaust, so you can use it as much as you want, but it does cost 1 stamina time.

This will, in turn, trigger Elder Mok's Hero Ability, meaning that once per turn, when another hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 or more health or fatigue, you may recover 1 health or 1 fatigue.

 

Unity, then, the 3xp Watchman card, can be used when a hero in your line of sight recovers 1 or more health, and will make that hero recover 1 stamina. You then test Willpower (of which Mok has 4), and if you fail, the card is exhausted and can't be used until the next round.

 

So, it's actually a far cry from "1 health, 1 stamina and 1 movement point completely free for absolutely everyone starting near you". Because while Elder Mok can spend 1 fatigue to give anyone in his line of sight 1 health and 1 movement point, and 1 fatigue, and then recover that 1 spent point of fatigue, it can only be recovered once per turn. If he does this to a remaining 3 heroes (assuming a full game), it's going to cost him 3 fatigue. And he can't trigger his Hero Ability on himself.

 

Provided he makes all of his Willpower tests, he also makes everyone recouperate 1 fatigue, which, granted, can potentially make him save another point of fatigue when using Quick Recovery on himself. So he can essentially use Quick Recovery on himself for free, when combined with Unity, and he can use Quick Recovery for free once on someone else, thanks to his Hero Ability.

But this assumes a great many things. For starters, to even get this ball rolling, someone has to already be injured. You cannot recover health above your threshold, meaning that in order to trigger either (or both) his hero ability and/or Unity, Quick Recovery has to actually heal someone. It also assumes that he keeps making his Willpower checks.

I'm not arguing that this isn't overpowered - it may very well still be - I just want the facts to be straight, and it's not quite, quite as broken as it first may have sounded.

You misunderstood Elder Mok's passive by a huge margin.

He can restore 1 stam or health per TURN, not per round. So he can use quick recovery for free for every hero every round. The only requirement is to have at least 1 stam left to begin the wheel.

Where the bard song are on his turn, so he uses his passive only once.

 

 

Huh, I never read Elder Mok's Hero Ability like that, I've just been assuming that it referred to his own turn. I wasn't confusing rounds with turns, really, for once, but just reading the wording differently. I guess I just considered the limitation pretty reasonable, but it's possible you're right.

And that's just downright f***ing broken.

 

 

I dunno, do I seem bitter? Can you tell that I'm bitter?

For over I month, I had completely misread the hybrid classes, believing them to be waaaay more awesome than they actually are. It led me to vocally oppose the complainers across multiple threads, when they decried Chains as being a subpar expansion. I sorely regret that now, now that I realize the truth. The hybrid classes are indeed SUBPAR. I thought it was like AD&D multi-classing... hah. It doesn't deserve to be called "hybrid classes"!

No wonder sometimes another poster would keep saying "WTH are you talking about?" I thought it was this forum's form of sarcasm or something.

All these new hybrid classes really allow, is new interactions from a larger combination of hero sheets and class decks. As if you received revised hero sheets of existing heroes. And instead of 1 archetype badge on the sheet, it had 2 to choose from.

While that is nice, as some posters said: it does not justify having only a total of 12 class cards in the expansion.

Thankfully, we're talking about a board game, not a computer game or -god forbid- a console game. As Matt Damon never said, I'm so gonna house-rule this ****.

You we're probably talking about my threads. "state of expansions" or something similar. It really is 3 cards per and passive abilities on those cards, but there are good combinations. I'm content with what's given in CTR, but not ecstatic.

As for the mentioning of Jaes, Rune plate does not have the rune trait, but you can buy it at the interlude, unlike the leather. I've also proxied the battlemage class in our campaign, and it'd a damage sponge. We have trenlo, as a marshal with aurium plate, and trenlo is quicker to die. They both can't be stamina drained very easily too, so they are constantly tripped as the only means to dealing with them.

 

While interesting input, Trenloe the 1-Knowledge Marshal made me go all kinds of wut.

Edited by Luckmann

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