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Punning Pundit

Weekend discussion: dice

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This is not an idea I see being easily implemented, but I think I would spark an interesting conversation, so:

One of the strengths of this system is how simple it is. But that simplicity also causes a bit of limitation. For instance: by combining hit chance with damage done, we end up in a situation where attacks that can hit certain ships _at all_ will be able to obliterate other ships with that same attack- despite the intended tankiness of the second ship.

So what I'm thinking- and this is definitely a shower thought- how would it change the game if:

When attacking, if a ship generates 2 hit and/or crit results, the defender will suffer at least 1 damage.

This is a huge buff to basically all attacks, and makes offensive damage modification more valuable.

However! It also means that Guidance Chimps would never have needed to exist- I think had that rule in place when Proton Torpedoes were created they would have been just fine.

However. Agility based defense would suffer a lot. Token stack Soontir Fel with AT + Stealth Device behind a rock would still have a high chance at taking at least 1 damage from a 3 die attack with any attack modifier.

So. I'll throw it open to you folks. Let's go back to Wave 1 and redesign a few things with this rule in mind.

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Decoupled dice like Imperial Assault is how you'd do it. You'd have some weapons that roll a few inaccurate dice: multiple hits on one face but the whole die result is still cancelled by a single evade result. Some would roll accurate dice that have results that are cancelled before hits but don't do any damage of their own if they hit.

 

That allows you to make very accurate but low damage weapons for A-wings and stuff and very high damage but inaccurate HLCs that melt slow targets but have a hard time hitting nimble ones.

Edited by Blue Five

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Guidance Chimps

 

What ship does that crew card come with?? :P

 

In all seriousness, however, I think it would be kewl if some specialized weapons or defenses came with alternate dice that featured different hit/defense probabilities.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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The real limitation of the dice is that they combine the functions of "to-hit" and "damage done" that are often separate rolls.  An accurate weapon is necessarily hard hitting in X-wing.

 

Remembering back to the old TieFighter games, there were the Heavy Rocket and Bomb ordnance types, which had a hard time hitting anything that was moving, but were devastating.  In X-Wing, if you want a heavy rocket, you've got to roll a huge number of dice to get the damage potential, which makes it an accurate weapon.  In a game like Advanced Squad Leader, you roll to hit based on the weapon's accuracy, then calculate effects based on the weapons's destructive potential.  You can hit a tank all day with high velocity 20mm rounds and not do any damage, while a Churchill AVRE's 290mm mortar will destroy anything it hits, but good luck shooting anything moving or far away with it...

 

Several weapons in X-wing partially divorce damage done from accuracy- Ions, TLT, Turbolasers.  Damage potential could go the other way, too:

 

Heavy Rocket:  Att 2. Range 1  If this attack hits, deal three damage for every uncancelled (hit) and three critical damage for every uncancelled (crit).  Devastating to ships that can't get out of the way, will probably miss an mid agi target, will never hit soontir.

 

Proximity Warhead:  Attack 5.  If this attack hits deal one damage.  If there are any uncancelled (crit) results, deal two damage.  Then cancel all dice results.

You'll hit what you're shooting at, but it won't care, unless he's flying a super fragile ship that would be easily holed by high velocity fragments...

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Perhaps, if there was already an Attack-die face with one "Blaster-BullsEye" symbol result (replacing a HIT or CRIT), that could not be modified or cancelled by anything (well except a shield)... a few "fixes" would have probably never been introduced by FFG. 

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I've often discussed two ideas regarding dice.  I would like to see in V2.0 decoupling of accuracy and power.  The general premise is that you have an A wing have 4 accuracy dice and 2 power dice, while an X wing might have 3 and 3, and a B would have 2 and 4.  Along with accuracy/power dice, the agility stat would have to be broken up into agility and mitigation.  An A wing might have 3 agility and 0 mititgation, while a YT-1300 might have 1 agility and 1 mitigation.

 

As for the attacks, you still have your single focus token on offense, but now you roll accuracy, modify those, defender rolls evade, and modifies those, then if you hit, you roll for the power of the shot, and compare that against the mitigation of the ship.

 

It brings up interesting cases - do you modify for the 3 accuracy on the X wing, hoping you get a good natural roll for power, or do you take your chances on 2 accuracy, hoping you connect and can modify the power of the attack?

 

Obviously this would be a total rebalance of the game - I would expect even an A wing to have an attack power of 3, in order to allow ships to have a mitigation of 2.  I would also expect a rebalance of health because of all of that.

 

 

 

The more realistic thing that I've discussed is the introduction of a blue die.  I've discussed it as the fix for the X wing, a title that allows the X wing to roll 3 blue dice instead of red dice.  The blue die would be a hyper accurate die, most likely 1 blank, 1 F, 4 hits, 1 crit, 1 double hit (or second crit if you don't like double hit).  This frees up the X wing actions to be used for things besides attacking, and you can create a modification (1pt?) for anyone to replace a red die with a blue die.  Perhaps something about power surge cannons or something.

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Accuracy Corrector.

Besides, it would make all the low-HP, high-AGI ships useless, as practically every attack would cause uncancellable damage.

 

and would make a bunch of the low agi high health really strong like the generic punisher. you could run 4 of them all with AC. or tie advance with AC

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Accuracy Corrector.Besides, it would make all the low-HP, high-AGI ships useless, as practically every attack would cause uncancellable damage.

Had this been a mechanic in Wave 1- which is something I mentioned in the first post, they probably would not have introduced accuracy corrector to the game.

And yes, Squints and the like would rely a lot more on arc dodging than they do now.

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I've often discussed two ideas regarding dice. I would like to see in V2.0 decoupling of accuracy and power...

I'd personally prefer not adding an extra stat (and Combat-phase steps) to cater for this - a key factor of the game is its simplicity and speed of clash-resolution.

I'd hate to see it become a dice-fest, a la WH40k

Instead I'd prefer to see (Pilot) Bossk-like abilities that magnify damage to represent the increased power of an attack. Initially I'd like it for Ordnance, or alternatively, the addition of a new coloured die* for Missile/Torp/Bomb upgrade attacks (which then could open up a slew of unique abilities along the lines of using the Ord dice for Primary attacks under certain circumstances).

(* = something like 2 crits, 4 hits, 2 blanks - or 2/3/3 - but no focus. I see focus as pilot concentration to align the ship or weapons for the optimal effect, but with Ordinance being more fire-and-forget no amount of pilot teeth-clenching will help hit home once the package is deployed)

(Though, if Torps were universally buffed, something would most likely would need to be done at that point to normalise U-boats)

e:spelling

Edited by ABXY

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I love the different dice used in Imperial Assault and Descent.  I like that they can represent different styles of weapons.  I think if a second edition were ever released, it would make sense to use a similar system. The current system tends to make more basic builds pretty vulnerable, with little to no chance against the elite meta builds.  It'd be nice if such builds stood some kind of chance, even against the meta elites.  

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I love the different dice used in Imperial Assault and Descent.  I like that they can represent different styles of weapons.  I think if a second edition were ever released, it would make sense to use a similar system. The current system tends to make more basic builds pretty vulnerable, with little to no chance against the elite meta builds.  It'd be nice if such builds stood some kind of chance, even against the meta elites.  

I agree! They could still do this... add a few weird cannons and ships here and there that use a different type of die...

 

I don't really think every attack piercing through to do damage is a great idea though... Too much of a good deal for Dengar, new Chewie, and warthogs. Also, with Wampa, Autoblasters, Ten Nunb, and Feedback Array, enough uncancellable damage already exists in my opinion. It would be fun to see a card like this, though:

 

Armor Piercing Laser

Attack (Range 1-3, 5 red dice):

If this attack hits, cancel all dice results.

Then the defender suffers one damage.

Cost 4

 

And I also would like a long-range cannon (range 1-5) for small ships...

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I love the different dice used in Imperial Assault and Descent.  I like that they can represent different styles of weapons.  I think if a second edition were ever released, it would make sense to use a similar system. The current system tends to make more basic builds pretty vulnerable, with little to no chance against the elite meta builds.  It'd be nice if such builds stood some kind of chance, even against the meta elites.  

I agree! They could still do this... add a few weird cannons and ships here and there that use a different type of die...

 

I don't really think every attack piercing through to do damage is a great idea though... Too much of a good deal for Dengar, new Chewie, and warthogs. Also, with Wampa, Autoblasters, Ten Nunb, and Feedback Array, enough uncancellable damage already exists in my opinion. It would be fun to see a card like this, though:

 

Armor Piercing Laser

Attack (Range 1-3, 5 red dice):

If this attack hits, cancel all dice results.

Then the defender suffers one damage.

Cost 4

 

And I also would like a long-range cannon (range 1-5) for small ships...

 

 

They could! And some of the weapon upgrade cards attempt to do this kind of thing, as you describe above. TLT, Autoblasters and the like are attempts to model these kinds of differences, I think.   I want to be careful to not over-complicate the game.  One it's beauties is that the mechanics are relatively simple and easy to pick up.  But I do think the different dice could add some some welcome texture.  IMO, It would be really easy to introduce a type of attack die (say, yellow), that has markings that are used to overcome evade results, but that don't actually do damage.  So, highly accurate weapons could have one or two of these dice, but only 2 of the standard damage dice.  Also, upgrades like Accuracy Corrector could add a couple of these "accuracy" dice, but the actual damage output could still vary, based on the results on the red attack dice. 

 

Not gonna happen, I think, but still fun to think about.  

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I've often discussed two ideas regarding dice.  I would like to see in V2.0 decoupling of accuracy and power.

This sort of thing would be the way I'd probably do it.  I've not spent a lot of time working on this so the maths are probably jank AF, but I'd look at 3 sorts of attack dice:

High damage low accuracy - HLCs, torpedoes, maybe ramming attacks, that sort of thing.  My thought is to have a special symbol for these which does two damage if uncancelled, but is cancelled by a single evade.  Two of these woudl then be a big threat to a 1-agi tank, but ignorable to a 3-agi arcdodger.

Normal - blasters and lasers etc - the current red dice.

Low damage high accuracy - missiles, TLTs, etc.  Similarly, with a special symbol that requires two evades to dodge, but does only one damage.  Similarly, two of these would be little threat to a 1-agi ship, they cap out at two damage, but two hits from them would threaten any low-hull ace because it would require 4 evades to cancel.

 

I'd also look at removing green DICE altogether and replacing them with a set of refreshable agility tokens that function like shields - you get your green value every round, and once they're gone, they're gone, you can't dodge any more.  Then focus tokens could function as an extra agility token or have their normal effect on attack dice, whilst evade tokens would work like Epic Reinforce tokens and give you an extra evade on every attack - but probabl you could only have one at a time.  THis way you remove the fickleness of the green dice and make them much more reliable against small numbers of attacks - but at the cost of being possible to reliably overwhelm with weight of fire or with missile dice that do low damage but take a lot of dodging.

 

It would need a pretty comprehensive rebalancing of the game, but I think there would be a lot of potential in this.

 

Possibly too much complexity though.

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Imagine a ship at Range 3, behind an asteroid that rolls anywhere from 2-6 evades while the attacker gets 2 hits.

With this card, there is still damage - even though it is undeserved.

Soontir with Stealth, Autothrusters, and an evade token, could have 7 possible evade results and still be hit.

A Decimator or Ghost could have 2-3 evades and still be hit

 

I think this card pushes past what is fair and makes it much harder to use ships that were designed for specific purposes.

With all of the recent focus on automating damage results, this is just one more thing that would unbalance the game.

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I think this card pushes past what is fair and makes it much harder to use ships that were designed for specific purposes.

I'm not sure what card you're talking about. I'm talking about redesigning the game from the ground up, from Wave 1 onwards, with this rule in mind.

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I've often discussed two ideas regarding dice.  I would like to see in V2.0 decoupling of accuracy and power.

This sort of thing would be the way I'd probably do it.  I've not spent a lot of time working on this so the maths are probably jank AF, but I'd look at 3 sorts of attack dice:

High damage low accuracy - HLCs, torpedoes, maybe ramming attacks, that sort of thing.  My thought is to have a special symbol for these which does two damage if uncancelled, but is cancelled by a single evade.  Two of these woudl then be a big threat to a 1-agi tank, but ignorable to a 3-agi arcdodger.

Normal - blasters and lasers etc - the current red dice.

Low damage high accuracy - missiles, TLTs, etc.  Similarly, with a special symbol that requires two evades to dodge, but does only one damage.  Similarly, two of these would be little threat to a 1-agi ship, they cap out at two damage, but two hits from them would threaten any low-hull ace because it would require 4 evades to cancel.

 

I'd also look at removing green DICE altogether and replacing them with a set of refreshable agility tokens that function like shields - you get your green value every round, and once they're gone, they're gone, you can't dodge any more.  Then focus tokens could function as an extra agility token or have their normal effect on attack dice, whilst evade tokens would work like Epic Reinforce tokens and give you an extra evade on every attack - but probabl you could only have one at a time.  THis way you remove the fickleness of the green dice and make them much more reliable against small numbers of attacks - but at the cost of being possible to reliably overwhelm with weight of fire or with missile dice that do low damage but take a lot of dodging.

 

It would need a pretty comprehensive rebalancing of the game, but I think there would be a lot of potential in this.

 

Possibly too much complexity though.

 

I like the first idea of different types of hit dice. . one "obvious" choice would be to have three different kinds in all the warm colors, each with its own sets of probabilities to hit.

 

OTOH, I think that the randomness of the green dice is essential to the game as well.  If it all boils down to Remove Evade Tokens, Then Remove Shield Tokens, Then Remove Hull Points, the game becomes so math-able as to be boring.

 

But like above, there could be three kinds of cool color defense dice with the ability to change probabilities of defense as well.

 

As you pointed out, this adds complexity that I'm pretty sure the designers are not interested in, since they seem to favor the idea of Fly Well to Play Well.

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An elegant solution with current agilities and dice is to say that it takes two evades to cancel a crititcal hit result.  A single evade turns it into a normal hit result.

 

This would still allow Soontir and other super aces to be really dodgy but also makes them a lot more afraid of 3 dice attacks.

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I'm not a fan of the inescapable damage, but I do like the idea of accuracy and damage being different.

 

If I were to do it differently, I'd give each ship and each secondary weapon a single damage value and accuracy value. You roll accuracy dice and the defender rolls evade dice. If the number of evade results is less than the number of hit results, you deal damage cards equal to the value on the ship card or secondary weapon.

 

In this world, there is no critical hit result. Instead, it has to do with the difference in hits and evades rolled.

Idea 1) If 3 or more hit results are not canceled, one of the damage cards is dealt face-up.

Idea 2) If no evade results are produced, all damage is dealt face-up.

 

These are just broad ideas, nothing I've really developed. The system keeps you rolling a the same amount of dice as the current version and still rewards you for dealing a lot of hits, but you can give lots of red dice to a ship without making that ship destroy every other ship because you can cap the damage stat.

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An elegant solution with current agilities and dice is to say that it takes two evades to cancel a crititcal hit result.  A single evade turns it into a normal hit result.

 

This would still allow Soontir and other super aces to be really dodgy but also makes them a lot more afraid of 3 dice attacks.

This would be an interesting band-aid for the current rules, both as a way to make high agility aces scared of lower die attacks, and as a way to make 'add-a-crit' type abilities a bit more relevant to ships with masses of shields.  It would go nicely with my previous proposal about killing green dice entirely, too.

 

 

I like the first idea of different types of hit dice. . one "obvious" choice would be to have three different kinds in all the warm colors, each with its own sets of probabilities to hit.

 

OTOH, I think that the randomness of the green dice is essential to the game as well.  If it all boils down to Remove Evade Tokens, Then Remove Shield Tokens, Then Remove Hull Points, the game becomes so math-able as to be boring.

 

But like above, there could be three kinds of cool color defense dice with the ability to change probabilities of defense as well.

 

As you pointed out, this adds complexity that I'm pretty sure the designers are not interested in, since they seem to favor the idea of Fly Well to Play Well.

 

I disagree that removing the greens woudl make the game boring.  It would make it more predictable, sure - but it would also mean that you absolutely HAVE to fly well with a low-hull high-agi ship, and if you screw up you WILL pay for it, rather than being able to get away scott-free or exploding depending on the vagaries of the dice - but also it means that you won't ever be completely screwed by a single 2-hit attack at range 2 through a rock when you blank out entirely.

 

But then, I'm a lot less of a fan of the dice in this game than a lot of people are; they make it so much more random.

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