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sejestephan

How would you design these guys?

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Some believe that certain named models are grossly overcosted or have abilities that doesn'r really represent how that model should function.

For funsies it would be cool to discuss how to balance and/or design these guys.

I am talking about:

Boba Fett

Chewbacca

Dengar

Darth Vader (although I personally wouldn't do anything about him)

Kayn Somos

IG-88

Han Solo

These are the problem kids as far as I can see

I'd do this:

Boba; complete redesign, put him around 8-10 pts. Boba Fett is a powerful player in Star Wars, but he shouldn't be more expensive than an imperial inquisitor imo.

Chewie: complete redesign; chewie should probably cost 7-8 pts to reflect that he is indeed a mighty hero, but also a team player and not the star of the show.

Dengar: I like Dengar but as far as I see he has three problems

A) 7 pts, he is in direct contest with eNexu, rHK's and Bossk for a place on the team. All these choises are better than him.

B) His output is rediculously bad and his abilities are negated by rally and to some degree by heart of resistance.

C) he is very slow and very squishy for a cyber enhanced imperial assassin.

I would keep him at 7 pts, add a green die to his attack and give him spd 5. I would also give him + 1 Evade to reflect his move by wire reflexes.

Edit: I would give him the shoot back ability of his X-wing card and call it payback.

Kayn Somos: give him the comm card as an innare ability and reduce his cost to 6

IG-88: dump his arsenal ability and give him blue/red/yellow. Dump his cost to 10 pts and call him IG-88-B. The other 3 IG robots should be available as well, so you could play brobots in AI.

Han Solo: complete redesign. Make him 7 pts. 1 more than Lando. I would give him green/green for attack and an ability called 'sorry about the mess' that would add a red die when he was shooting at models within 3 spaces. Also 5 speed and keep cunning, add improved smugglers instinct and an ability called something like master smuggler or master of larceny or something, giving him an action to go through your command deck and pull a 'smuggler' card and take strain equal to the cost of that card. Maybe even give him another powerful ability like interrupt to make an attack once pr round when he is targetted by a model with lower cost, and add a drawback 'death mark' Han Solo is worth 9 victory points for your opponent.

Thats my two cents. What are you guys thinking?

Edited by sejestephan

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Here's some general concept for design and point values. 

 

Firstly, single figures over 8 points really needs some way to attack twice (some exceptions can exist if you are super tough like Vader or ATST). Either via a double attack, or brutality or some other ability like force choke/fighting knife etc...

That's one of the main problems with Boba and Han. 

 

Next is toughness. Going to a two dice defense (or including built in block/evades) is worth at least 2 points. Having health over 10 is worth at least 1 point, health over 15 is probably worth 2. That's why Chewie, RGC and Vader are so expensive. It's interesting that everyone considers those guys overpriced yet a 14 point AT-ST doesn't usually get complained about. 

 

Thirdly, the role is important. Boba suffers because he's super hard to kill but really doesn't do enough damage. He simply doesn't have enough of an impact. Kayn is the same. He is expensive because of his 3 dice attack and high health.... but he's really a support unit and does little damage himself. That's why he's not worth it. 

 

Fourthly- don't forget how things scale. Having a few extra health is far more valuable if you already have a built in free block. Extra movement speed is far more valuable on a melee character than a ranged one. 

 

Finally, consider what the unit works well with, and what else can fit into the list. Sometimes the reason things are pointed the way they are, is because the aim is to limit what else can be taken. Vader and RGC are a good example. You can take some troopers with them, and then you have just enough points for an officer or two and an upgrade. If they were cheaper, you could take a whole different unit, or a whole extra activation. And that's where things get tricky because while the power of the unit might not change, the power of the list could spike a lot. Oh an don't forget the impact that command cards can have. They do have their own points costs but some still synergize well with other certain units adding to potential power spikes. 

To address some of your specific examples. 

 

Boba Fett - I'd bump his pierce up to 2, make his +2dmg a normal surge and give this battle disipline something else. Maybe swap the weaken with the +2dmg something like that. Maybe drop his points by 1.  

 

Chewbacca - Not sure how to fix this guy, haven't used him enough. Perhaps an extra 1 or 2 health and make the +2acc baseline. Like Boba, chewie suffers a bit by having contradicting roles. You want to be close to use slam, but you have a good ranged weapon too. Perhaps slam could be added to an attack instead of taking a separate action. So after attacking, perform slam on any adjacent target. Or it can stay as is but hit 2 targets instead of 1. 

 

Dengar - Poor guy just needs more damage. Again, he's more of a support unit. He's there to dish out large amounts of stun, weaken and bleed. His base attack is just too weak and his range is too small for a low health figure. He needs to drop to 5 points or get 10-11 health. Otherwise, change the yellow to a red. He already gets a free surge anyway and he only really ever needs 2 surges. His command card needs to be cheaper or interrupt BEFORE the attack resolves not after. 

 

Darth Vader - I wouldn't change him much. Maybe one less point. Maybe make his brutality not require different targets. It's good that he's tough but still has some weaknesses. 

 

Kayn Somos - As mentioned before. This guy is a support unit. He has a pretty crappy 3 dice attack and high health which pushes up his points cost, but doesn't help him be effective. He needs to drop 2 points and 2-4 health points. This guy is actually pretty easy to compare with two elite officers. They are more flexible, easier to use and provide very similar offensive benefits. Otherwise you could swap out one blue dice for a red dice, or make his firing squad ability more like Leia's so he get's to attack as well. He's also effectively 11 points now because you really need Advanced Comms on him. I think at 7-8 points and some less health he would be more useful.

 

IG-88 - This one is tricky. He can be a little squishy if he get's caught out, but giving him more health is a huge power spike because Recover 3 is so strong. He's also a bit better now with Hide giving out free surges (so taking 2 Red isn't as bad). However scum don't have easy access to hide. I think he could maybe use a free evade (like boba has) or 1-2 extra health. Otherwise he could probably stay as is but drop down to 10 pts. 

 

Han Solo - I think Han is actually pretty solid. He has a good attack, with good range. He can sometimes get an extra attack in. His command card is also very strong. I'd probably replace distracting with some else, maybe something movement related, like Slippery from the Alliance Smuggler. That would make his Return Fire skill stronger. If return fire triggers more often then I'd keep his points as is. 

 

 

One final note: I think most of the stuff you're suggesting is taking it a little bit too far. Your Kayn example is extremely excessive. Compared with a 6pt Blaise, your Kayn has great abilities, the option of adding 2 more attacks per turn, 4 more health and a better attack. He would be an auto include ALWAYS. Blaise is already very common and you've made something heaps better. I think you need to tone your changes down a bit =) 

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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Those are a lot of good ideas Inquisitorsz! It's nice to see someone taking a moderate approach to changes instead of just "Drop their point value by 5" or something crazy like that :D

 

I think giving IG-88 more health and reducing his recover value to 2 might be good. And even getting to pick your dice seems a little weak if you only get two - I think I'd take an extra die over getting to pick. Maybe give him a Blue as a base instead of his +2 accuracy, and let him pick the others? He's just too squishy right now to make choosing your dice worthwhile (because you have to get close to take full advantage of the switch).

 

I wish Boba's "Battle Presence" is probably the worst thing about him. Like you said, it's such a strange thing for him role-wise. Nothing else about him (except maybe his tankiness) encourages getting up close. If they just reversed it (entering a space next to him makes you take a strain) then it would make more sense, discouraging melee attackers from running up to him.

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Well, the main problem is that all of those figures and almost everything up through Twin Shadows was designed by another pair of people who were admittedly more interested in the campaign side of things than the skirmish side.  They were also creating a new game (campaign borrowed from Descent quite a bit) and the skirmish was all new.  They didn't get the bright idea to have separate skirmish and campaign cards until R2D2.  I think this is the fix, if the design team would jump on it.  Any "fix" is going to require a printing of new cards to a certain degree.

 

I think things are much better, as there is a person in charge of Skirmish now and a team in place to further the skirmish side of things and best of all, playtest things.  But yes, everyone knows that a lot of the earlier figures are overpriced for their role and unfortunately, a lot of these are some of the more well-known characters from the movies.

 

I think we've discussed this before in some threads, you can change point costs, but you still want figures to be balanced. Adjusting abilities is also a way to do it.  I prefer re-printing skirmish cards and including one of the reprints in each of the newer releases, until they are caught up.  I'd love a skirmish Biv and Saska that were worth playing.  Some of the Core ancillary figures are stuck as they are fairly cheap, but to a certain degree not as competitive as others. I think there's always going to be some that are better than others to take in the game.

 

That being said, I think there also needs to be some higher point models, You shouldn't be able to take everything you want. That's part of balancing teams, is that you can't fit all the good kids in the game at once.

 

Boba Fett needs damage output increased. Dump the Battle Prescence and let him live and die by the surges and he'd improve.  Pierce 2 would help and only costing 11-12 would too. But not being able to use his +2 damage and heal at the same time is terrible.  I don't know how many times he doesn't do any damage and he's Boba Fett, the disintegration man!
Chewbacca Just a couple points overcosted, I think at 12-13 he is fine, he hits like a truck and defends well and with some support, tears a hole in lists.
Dengar if he had the recover ~2 as an option he could use those surges to heal himself and stay alive longer, it kind of fits his backstory as well.
Darth Vader (although I personally wouldn't do anything about him) I think the new Force user cards help him quite a bit as well as some movement cards, he will always require an investment and should cost quite a bit. I wouldn't mind a drop to 16 pts, he'd still use up a third of your points and be a heavy investment, but you could still play to his strengths and weaknesses.

IG-88 very close, but very dependent on dice.  If he could focus himself, or cost 10 pts or any number of things.  He really needs just a tweak and a free targeting computer.
Han Solo drop the "once per round" on his Return Fire, you could build your deck to support him, he's still flimsy to get killed, but at least he has a chance to take some guys with him.  Reminds me of him chasing a squad of stormtroopers down the halls of the Death Star

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The disintegration man, made me laugh :)

They'll probably make a small deck of cards for purchase or maybe just add completely new versions of the models later. I just think it's catastrophic that Han and Chewie sux, it's not good for the game and it's not good for us trying to pitch the game to people interested.

'So I really like Han, is he as awesome in this game as he is in the movies?'

'No. He's really bad. As is his sidekick. But here, buy Greedo and a trandoshan you've never heard of because your not a gigantic SW nerd'

People want Han, Chewie, Boba Fett and Darth Vader, it's not rocket science that it's much easier to hook potential customers if they can play guys that they like. Hell, I wouldn't mind of those guys where a little broken either, as long as they where cheap enough so that people could add different things to their lists.

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They'll probably make a small deck of cards for purchase 

 

They'll probably never do this.  Ask any veteran X-Wing player out there how often these card packs happen.  Every LCG leads to players demanding a "small deck of cards" to round out their Core Set purchase.  I'd find it useful too, but I wouldn't be too optimistic for this hypothetical release.

 

 

 

or maybe just add completely new versions of the models later. I just think it's catastrophic that Han and Chewie sux, it's not good for the game and it's not good for us trying to pitch the game to people interested.

 

There's a new Luke coming in the Jabba pack and presumably a new Han and Chewie would come in an inevitable Endor pack.  But yeah, we hear you, it's how it goes.  To use X-Wing as an example again, Luke doesn't get used in any top table lists I've ever come across.  Han disappeared too, though a new version is coming soon.

 

As has been said, that Core Set really blew it in terms of Skirmish play having more options.  The terrible balancing lead to the rise of the 4x4 and Rebel Blast lists being the only things you'd play in a major event if you wanted a chance to place.  They switched out designers, and you can immediately see the difference.  R2 and C3P0 are both great, Boba was a little underwhelming but the Tuskens and Heavy Troopers are great.

 

Hoth dropped in Leia, more Troopers, HK's, a Bantha landed in there somwhere.

 

You can count on new material integrating well and diversifying the field more.

 

 

 

'So I really like Han, is he as awesome in this game as he is in the movies?'

'No. He's really bad. As is his sidekick. But here, buy Greedo and a trandoshan you've never heard of because your not a gigantic SW nerd'

People want Han, Chewie, Boba Fett and Darth Vader, it's not rocket science that it's much easier to hook potential customers if they can play guys that they like. Hell, I wouldn't mind of those guys where a little broken either, as long as they where cheap enough so that people could add different things to their lists

 

 Amazingly, that's why they lead those early releases with exactly those people.  The problem was that FFG didn't put enough time into allowing for Skirmish design to be tested and balanced better, and that's the mess we're left in.  This isn't new of course, and to bring it all back to X-Wing, it took a long time before Vader became playable again.

 

Don't forget though, that IA is like a dual purpose product.  You have Skirmish players and Campaign players.  There's some cross-talk but the game can essentially cater to and please two very different gamer demographics, making it an insane value, moreso now that a co-op app is on the horizon.  Using Vader in campaign is still a great move.  Han and Chewie are useful when you get them as free allies in some missions and it helps make things feel more "Star Warsy".

 

So it's not all doom and gloom.  Han and Chewie might be on the skids, but unless you're a big Han and Chewie fan, there's still plenty to work with in the IA landscape for Skirmish if you just want to play a fun Star Wars game.

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Han and Chewie aren't unplayable they're just over costed. 

 

I'm not sure that matters greatly for a new player getting into skirmish as long as the others are similarly inexperienced?

 

I played a couple games with my Han and Chewie list Wednesday and did just fine, only lost C3P0 across both games, I'm filming a game with it Friday against a strong Trooper list and expect to lose, but expect to be able to make a game of it still.

 

Rich

 

*edit* one of the major issues with Han and Chewie not seeing play is everyone saying Han and Chewie aren't good enough to see play *edit*

Edited by RoyalRich

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It'll be interesting to see if Jabba fixes the mercs at least. I can see value in having Boba Fett or IG-88 get an extra attack to trigger their recover surges mid turn, for Boba Fett, that makes him even more invincible than he already is, and for IG-88 it could mean that he gets to stay around for another turn if the oppoent tries to focus fire him to death.

Both guys get value out of standing in the midst of things, and Jabbas ability helps them do that. Jabba is definetly going to have a big impact on the merc faction, and I am really excited about trying him out with the expensive mercs.

Edit: With Bobas card you can get up to 3 attacks for one round, thats not shabby at all.

Edit 2: actually, maybe a fix could be an upgrade that grants models of cost 11+ to get a free move, like beast tamer and another small bonus. This would help the big guys trigger their specials and give them more presence.

Edited by sejestephan

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For your consideration; a stormtrooper is 3 pts. He fires blue/green, defends with a black, has +2 damage surge and +3 accuracy surge. He has speed 4 and 5 health.

On top of that he has focus another stormtrooper of he dies and a reroll ability that triggers when standing next to any other trooper. Powerful abilities both of them.

For 1 more point, you get Greedo. Greedo fires green/green, is born with +1 damage and +1 accuracy. He has the same surges as the trooper plus bleed. Greedo defends with a white, has 7 health and 5 speed.

Greedo has slow on the draw, as a drawback, but he also has parting shot as a strong special.

So for 1 point he gets +1 surge ability, an innate accuracy and damage buff, 2 health, 1 speed. He loses a good ability for a drawback. Thats 1 point difference.

Bossk is 8 points. He is born with a shield, + 2 damage and +2 accuracy. He lost a surge ability compared to a stormtrooper but hes got pierce 1 which is better than greedos bleed. He shoots red/green so he has switched accuracy for damage, when compared to stormtrooper.

He defends with a white, has 10 health and 4 speed.

He has two abilities. One is a damage/strain area effect which is very powerful, the other is a healing ability, which is also very powerful.

So for 5 pts more than the stormtrooper, you get double the life, buily in extra damage, accuracy and a block. Bossk is almost the same cost as three stormtroopers, but the scale of his abilities make up for that easily.

Boba Fett is 13 points. A whooping 10 pts more than a stormtrooper, he's even more expensive than Bossk and Greedo combined!

He has an automatic block and evade, he is mobile. He has two surges. Pierce 1 and weaken. Both are much worse than the stormtroopers. He fires a blue/green/yellow ... So, a yellow die more than stormtroopers. Which is great! The surge die, he must have amazing surge abilities! He defends with a black and has 12 health and 6 spd.

His abilities are battle presence, which is probably the most useless ability in the game right now, because it doesn't do anything. And then he has this other amazing ability, that KEEPS HIM FROM USING HIS ENTIRE CARD. Seriously? Yes, he has +2 accuracy, and surge for +2 damage or +2 recover. But, he can only use one of these pr turn! Remember that yellow die? You know, the output die that he really pays for. He has no good surges in his surge spots, but he has two great surges in battle discipline. He can just only ever use 1 of them.

He costs more than 4 stormtroopers combined, and what he has over a single stormtrooper is: 7 health, free evade/block, one yellow die, mobile and spd 6. He pays 10 points for that. 10! He pays Obi-Wan and Gideon for that.

So how about his card? That has got to be amazing! His card costs his entire activation and lets him attack twice, and lets him USE HIS WHOLE CARD! No other model in the game has all the best parts of their card locked down like that. It's so insanely poor game design to look at Boba Fett, that it almost hurts. Well, thats my opinion, but judge for yourself.

I would design him like this, and playtest until it fit:

Boba Fett

'Disintegration man'

Cost 11

Health 10

Spd 6

Attack: blue/red/yellow

Defence: 1 Black

Block/evade

Mobile

Surge: + 2 damage

Surge: blast 2

Mandalorian Arsenal: At the beginning of your activation chose one of the following abilities to apply for one round: (I know, I just dizzed the not use entire card thing)

Special action: Flamethrower (as pr Terro)

combat knife (as pr Verena)

Bola: surge: weaken/stun

Edited by sejestephan

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blast 2 is too good.

I'd rather have blue, green and red.

 

The real problem with Boba is he doesn't have anything worth spending the surge on or he's too easily blocked.  At least characters like Blaise (who are dramatically cheaper) have +1 and +1 etc.  Pierce 1 and weaken are not enough to get the damage through.  For 13pts you have to carry your weight.  He should be able to drop a stormtrooper in one round of shooting, so reliably getting 3 damage through everytime.

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I feel like the AT-ST has blast 2 and is never used, I don't think it's too powerful at all on an 11 pts model. As you said, he should be able to drop stormtroopers, at the very least. Right now, Davith deals more damage for less than half Bobas cost.

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Both are true, at st isn't played that much and with a blue red red, the odds of getting a surge are a lot less than with yellow green from boba or Davith. I would be more comfortable with it if boba got a one time blast 2 or if he had blast 1 as a battle presence. This is just my feeling that as the galaxy's most renowned bounty hunter, Boba should be good at crippling or taking out individuals , not squad killing

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Did a couple games for the YouTube channel last night with a Han + Chewie list, I still maintain they're playable - I get that they're expensive and maybe a little over-costed but they can do some work.

did you have them in a list together?  I have a Han, Leia, Chewie and C-3PO list (escape from Hoth) that does okay on certain maps.

I've just had Han go down quicker than Leia and too many games where he never gets his extra shot off even standing next to Chewie and 3po. They are definitely playable, but not competitive on some maps.  In fact, the point cost really becomes a burden on those grab these objectives and hold them for points maps.

 

Command cards  are almost non-existent in a list like this as well.

Edited by buckero0

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Did a couple games for the YouTube channel last night with a Han + Chewie list, I still maintain they're playable - I get that they're expensive and maybe a little over-costed but they can do some work.

did you have them in a list together?  I have a Han, Leia, Chewie and C-3PO list (escape from Hoth) that does okay on certain maps.

I've just had Han go down quicker than Leia and too many games where he never gets his extra shot off even standing next to Chewie and 3po. They are definitely playable, but not competitive on some maps.  In fact, the point cost really becomes a burden on those grab these objectives and hold them for points maps.

 

Command cards  are almost non-existent in a list like this as well.

 

 

 

Yea both of them together :)

 

The full list was Han // Chewie // MHD-19 // Gideon // R2D2 // C3PO - I think MHD-19 is the glue that holds the list together.

 

I did have another version with Chewie // Leia // Obi Wan // MHD-19 // Gideon // C3P0 but I haven't moved onto it yet as I'm enjoying Han in this version

 

Command Cards are mostly for recovering health and play the list as a points retention list.

Edited by RoyalRich

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I think it's really easy to misunderstand what is really being said when people call these early units "overcosted".

It's not that they are "unplayable". Anything can be played. Any unit can do some work (well maybe not Mak...j/k or am I?).

The reality is though, in a competitive game having a healthy number of activations AND figures is half the battle of being competitive. And the more points spent on large investment, single figure deployments the less likely you are to have a really competitive list. A lot of it is basic economics - how worth it is it to play this deployment card versus all the others?

As many have pointed out, a great benchmark is elite stormtroopers. 3 points per unit, 5 health, good attack, with a reliable reroll, and then has reinforcements and grenadier available as command cards. Very good return on your investment here. If we could run more than two cards worth many people probably would. It'd be boring/less flavorful, but it's arguably the smart play. Just like when royal guards and officers hadn't been nerfed - it was the most efficient list out there. And Sabs could take it out more regularly than anything else so they were the only other realistically competitive option if you didn't want to just "hope" you might win a game here and there.

I'm gonna stop here because it could go on forever. But summing up: these expensive units aren't "unplayable" it's that they are inefficient and there are almost always better options to play with. And there are now a lot more options than in the beginning of the game and so there is a ton more variety and the meta is wide open - but some units are still very inefficient and will be until either an errata or more likely a new version (for some of them)/command cards and attachments that boost them, and some will probably never get a touch up.

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I get what you're saying, I'm just saying I'd be comfortable playing most top lists out there with my Han and Chewie list and feeling I can compete, I think a lot of people just seem to play what the internet says is good and not try different things out.

Elite stormtroopers are good, no question, but they're not far and above everything, the game is pretty well balanced in that respect.

I just worry about lists like this proposing big changes as people see them and assume that awesome characters like boba, Han, Chewie etc. Aren't worth putting in their lists so they've never played them in a lot of cases.

I'd say they're fine, they're not the best, they're not half bad either though

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I get what you're saying, I'm just saying I'd be comfortable playing most top lists out there with my Han and Chewie list and feeling I can compete, I think a lot of people just seem to play what the internet says is good and not try different things out.

Elite stormtroopers are good, no question, but they're not far and above everything, the game is pretty well balanced in that respect.

I just worry about lists like this proposing big changes as people see them and assume that awesome characters like boba, Han, Chewie etc. Aren't worth putting in their lists so they've never played them in a lot of cases.

I'd say they're fine, they're not the best, they're not half bad either though

 

What would you say is a bad figure/card?

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For example, I love the Jyn figure, her abilities are awesome and fluffy for a tricky smuggler, they seem to fit the character or personality the designers were trying to portray. 5 pts for 6 health, great speed, 2 defensive abilities and a sweet offensive ability that takes some skill to pull off ( range is not great), decent surges. Han Solo has a similar ability, great surges, a little slower, 3 dice, twice the health, a support ability.

Both these figures are a little off for me. I know white dice can let you down, but Han's offensive ability is rarely triggered bc he is easy to get damage on. I don't feel he is better than core Luke and in many ways is weaker. Judging current releases, which is unfair, I would have no problem putting Han in a competitive list at 8 points. At 12 he eats too many points to support properly. With too few deployment cards, Han dies even quicker, bc he gets focused and can't withstand focus fire. Jyn, with all her attributes, actually is easier to kill. Don't change her point cost, but she should be health 8.

My point is that since these two characters are so similar in abilities and rules, they should be closer in cost or representation to a certain degree. (I don't know if I'm making sense) I think there's multiple ways to balance or fix a character though. Jyn with health 8 and the same abilities becomes very strong, Han with the same abilities at 8 cost becomes very decent.

Saska feels like she's carrying around an over costed reverse temp alliance card built into her deployment cost. Anyone who's ability cause damage to themselves should have higher built in health ( as I believe the new Aqualish character and the bantha have) or a way to recover. Saska as is, is almost never worth it as a tax to get a merc. At 4 pts maybe, she usually does more damage to herself (literally and deployment cost) than the enemy.

I could go on and on. There are many whose cost and abilities don't mesh well. I do however support powerful, expensive characters, as I believe it supports a different playstyle than the normal. Strong tanky figures will need more support than usual to get their points back usually. Many figures are very close like this RGC, Vader, Chewie, Boba fett is not very good for his cost though. He is reasonably tanky, but he can't cause damage and his abilities are holding him back and uncharacteristic. His point cost is crippling to any competitive list

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I get what you're saying, I'm just saying I'd be comfortable playing most top lists out there with my Han and Chewie list and feeling I can compete, I think a lot of people just seem to play what the internet says is good and not try different things out.

Elite stormtroopers are good, no question, but they're not far and above everything, the game is pretty well balanced in that respect.

I just worry about lists like this proposing big changes as people see them and assume that awesome characters like boba, Han, Chewie etc. Aren't worth putting in their lists so they've never played them in a lot of cases.

I'd say they're fine, they're not the best, they're not half bad either though

 

What would you say is a bad figure/card?

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure to be honest, fantastic question though. I initially jumped for Kayn Somos but then although he's overcosted he can do some work in the right lists.

 

I think Saska is really tough to get value out of, but again she brings an option that you just can't get elsewhere (Merc in Rebel lists) I've seen people doing great things with Mak, Loku, even Verena and Biv, although I don't think either of those last two are "worth their points"

 

I think if I'm to go for the "worst" card in the game atm I'd say Dengar, he's poorly designed in my opinion as his abilities revolve around applying conditions that that he can't apply because he can't punch the damage through.

 

I'd maybe go as far as to say you can make any card in this game work though, you just need to be creative in building around it.

 

I'd be happy to try that theory too if you've a suggestion for what you feel is the worst card in the game atm?

 

I honestly believe the game is in a great spot at the moment balance wise.

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Both these figures are a little off for me. I know white dice can let you down, but Han's offensive ability is rarely triggered bc he is easy to get damage on. I don't feel he is better than core Luke and in many ways is weaker. Judging current releases, which is unfair, I would have no problem putting Han in a competitive list at 8 points. At 12 he eats too many points to support properly. With too few deployment cards, Han dies even quicker, bc he gets focused and can't withstand focus fire. Jyn, with all her attributes, actually is easier to kill. Don't change her point cost, but she should be health 8.

 

Stick Han next to C3PO and he's very, very tanky. Add in Chewbacca and he's got an innate 2 block and an evade plus whatever he rolls on the white dice. I think the problem with him is that he's shoe horned into this type of list, rather than that he can't work in any list.

 

Agreed on Saska, I've used her in a list with Bossk and Davith and she did some work, loads of AoE from Bossk and Saska with Davith running around finishing things off. That was really just forcing it to try and make her work though, she's definitely up there as one of the worst cards atm.

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In regards to Dengar, he would be easily fixed by adding a blue or green die to his attack, I believe that will likely be the way they fix him, if they do. Explosive arnaments on him is nice though and at seven points he isn't that expensive. An extra die for sure, that would make him really good and make it so he could get a couple of shots of, until he disintegrates :)

Please make that happen in the FAQ :)

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"Stick Han next to C3PO and he's very, very tanky. Add in Chewbacca and he's got an innate 2 block and an evade plus whatever he rolls on the white dice. I think the problem with him is that he's shoe horned into this type of list, rather than that he can't work in any list.

 

Agreed on Saska, I've used her in a list with Bossk and Davith and she did some work, loads of AoE from Bossk and Saska with Davith running around finishing things off. That was really just forcing it to try and make her work though, she's definitely up there as one of the worst cards atm."

 

My concern with the Han 3pO and Chewie scrum list, is that it works well on certain scenarios where you don't have to capture and control objectives, but some maps you cannot stay together, which means, you're going to lose if they are collecting 12 pts a turn because they can hold more objectives than you.  Some ancillary damage lists (blast, and to a lesser extent cleave) can make things tougher for these guys too.

 

I'm suprised at your opinion of Verena, I thought they finally got a hero character right in skirmish after the Biv/Saska debacle.  I think she is very well thought out and has a balanced design, it just so happens, that shooting stuff is way easier and safer than getting in adjacent to and melee attacks.  With so many people taking trooper lists, she doesn't have a great selection of opponents to use her cool ability on.  I think some of that is changing.  Imagine what she will be like running in and swapping attack stats with Luke, Rancor, Leia, RGC, Obiwan, Blaise, etc.  She really needs one more surge ability or Pierce 2 over Pierce 1 though.  I think she'll come around as the lists refocus or diversify away from 3 types of troopers and some support.

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