Intel Officer

[Drasnighta 26,832]

To FORM YOUR ATTACK POOL.

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

So which stage of the attack is Intel Officer being used in?

After you roll the dice you are allowed to spend accuracys, and modify them, immediately after rolling them, you are in the Resolve Attack Effects step.

 

 

So, if I had an upgrade card that said "While Attacking, Before Modifying Dice"

 

When would you use it?  

Before Gathering Dice?

After Gathering Dice?

Before Rolling those Dice?

Or after Rolling those Dice, before Modifying them, in a similar space?

 

 

If it actually said before modifying dice, you would use it before modifying dice.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

And in which step is that?

 

because it snot in the Modifying Dice step.

 

because it has to be before it.

 

And its not in the Roll Attack Dice Step.

 

because its not rolling attack Dice.

[TheEasternKing 607]

Dras it clearly says on Intel Officer, AFTER you roll your attack pool.

 

RRG

 

1 Declare target

2 Roll attack dice (Gather and roll.)

3 Resolve attack effects. 

 

Does the Intel officer say to use it in stage 2, Roll attack dice?

[TheEasternKing 607]

I'm not posting anything else as we are just butting heads and repeating ourselves.

 

By all means ask FFG.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

No, it does not.

 

it tells you to use it between those two steps..  2 and 3.

 

Becuase uif you were to use it in either, it would tell you to use it in either.

 

 

 

----

 

I'm definitely done.

 

Be intentionally obtuse and believe that Upgrade Cards cannot do anything not listed in the rules, or modify base rules at all.  Because its not like Gunnery Teams lets you change rules or anything now...  

 

The timing is specified.  The timing is specific.

 

No clarification is needed.  Acceptance is needed.

 

If this point is truly in need of clarification, then you know what, I'll strawman - Why not get FFG to clarify every single upgrade card while we're at it, since some, most, or possibly all of them change the way the rules are done...

 

I feel you are being intentionally obtuse, EasternKing...  It is specified, and the rules allow it.  As written.  

 

You do not use it in Stage 2, Roll attack Dice.....    You would do any effects with that timing at that time - Like Sato might if he is clarified to do that...  

But Intel Officer does not modify attack dice, so it does not Default to Step 3, Resolve Attack Effects...  You use the specific Timing On The Card Unless Otherwise Specified.

 

The Timing is Specified.

 

 

I'm not asking FFG

I'm not wasting their time with something that I don't believe is neccessary.

[GameCafe 91]

While I feel this may be a futile point to make it may be easier to explain how it works using triggers from Magic the Gathering. The card is triggered immediately after you roll your attack pool. This is before proceeding to the next step. You can't proceed until the effect has been resolved. That is the timing window as provided by the card text. You do not try to fit the card into another step because you feel like that's how it works. It specifically says when you use it and if you try to do anything else before resolving that effect than it is a missed opportunity.

 

The issue that some people get hung up on is the word "after" and assuming that this means anytime they feel like resolving it after the trigger. Problem is by that logic the entire rest of the turn, ship activations, squadrons, yadda yadda is "after" you roll your attack pool. That's not how the game works. Rolling your attack pool causes the card to trigger. You either choose to intel immediately or you miss the opportunity to resolve it.

[TheEasternKing 607]

While I feel this may be a futile point to make it may be easier to explain how it works using triggers from Magic the Gathering. The card is triggered immediately after you roll your attack pool. This is before proceeding to the next step. You can't proceed until the effect has been resolved. That is the timing window as provided by the card text. You do not try to fit the card into another step because you feel like that's how it works. It specifically says when you use it and if you try to do anything else before resolving that effect than it is a missed opportunity.

 

The issue that some people get hung up on is the word "after" and assuming that this means anytime they feel like resolving it after the trigger. Problem is by that logic the entire rest of the turn, ship activations, squadrons, yadda yadda is "after" you roll your attack pool. That's not how the game works. Rolling your attack pool causes the card to trigger. You either choose to intel immediately or you miss the opportunity to resolve it.

 

If that is what FFG decide if the correct use, fine with me.

 

However, everything happens in windows in this game, things are triggered in windows, and the window after rolling the dice, is resolve attack effects.

 

Nothing else, and I mean nothing else happens outside of specific windows, so why should IO be the only thing to do so?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 

Nothing else, and I mean nothing else happens outside of specific windows, so why should IO be the only thing to do so?

 

 

 

Medical Team

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

...or any other card using the "before" or "after" qualifier. Like, say, SFO and many other officer upgrades.

 

Once again: "After rolling dice" does not mean "while resolving the step following rolling dice", it means "before resolving the step following rolling dice" (not even - it would take place even before an event with that literal wording).

[Lyraeus 4,759]

By EasternKings logic one can't use Engine Techs or Demolisher either since they are after you Execute a Maneuver which we all know that after that the next ship goes. . . . Yup, guess your can't use Flight Commander or Fighter Coordination Teams either since they have that same window. . . Nope, I guess half of the cards in the game just don't work now.

Well guys it seems we have been playing the game wrong all along! All hail TheEasternKing! Savior of Armada!

[TheEasternKing 607]

By EasternKings logic one can't use Engine Techs or Demolisher either since they are after you Execute a Maneuver which we all know that after that the next ship goes. . . . Yup, guess your can't use Flight Commander or Fighter Coordination Teams either since they have that same window. . . Nope, I guess half of the cards in the game just don't work now.

Well guys it seems we have been playing the game wrong all along! All hail TheEasternKing! Savior of Armada!

 

Engine techs state : after you execute a maneuver, exhaust this card to execute a speed 1 maneuver. Not seeing the issue here, it duplicates the maneuver?

Demolisher : during your activation, you max perform one of your attacks after you  execute a maneuver. Again it clearly states when and how to use it.

Flight Commander : during your activation you may resolve a <squadron> command after you execute a maneuver, again it clearly states how and when it works

Fighter co-ordination teams : After you execute a maneuver, you may select a number unengaged friendly squadrons, up to your squadron value at close medium range, those squadrons may move up to distance 1. Again, it clearly states when and how it is used.

 

Explain to me how them upgrade cards do not have specific timing windows? for when and how they are allowed to be used.

 

Intel Officer says "after rolling." well several things are allowed to happen after rolling, and before your opponent is allowed to use Defense Tokens. Some how you think that is not as clear as the things you just listed for me?

 

And we can do with out name calling and abuse Lyraeus, you yourself have been on the receiving end of it often enough, and not enjoyed it yourself.

Edited September 7, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[Lyraeus 4,759]

What name calling? You say that modifying dice is immediately after rolling the attack pool well immediately after you move is the end of that ships activation. I am just using your well thought out logic to see what else doesn't work.

ALL HAIL THEEASTERNKING! SAVIOR OF ARMADA

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Hey guess what guys! We cant take Command Tokens anymore! Since the timing is "After you reveal your command dial" and we all know that immediately after you do that, that you go into your attack . . . ohhh I guess we cant use squadrons or engineering anymore. . . 

 

Thank you TheEasternKing! You have Fixed Armada!

[TheEasternKing 607]

Fine you want to be abusive, go right ahead. You can be the first ever forum user to go on ignore, congratulations.

 

Me and Dras can argue till we are blue in the face with each other, no name calling, no abuse, I have never once sent Dras a hatemail in PM, I respect him and his views and opinions.

 

taking Command tokens are part of the command dial resolution, sure you know how to play Armada?

 

All have listed and explained windows of resolution.

 

Not sure where I said they did not, but whatever.

 

Immediately after rolling your attack pool, you have several things you can resolve, and they must be resolved before the Defender starts spending Defense Tokens, if that is too abstract a thought for you, fine.

Edited September 7, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Why is Step 3 immediately after Step 2, Eastern?

 

Its simply the next step.

 

The only time the word "immediately" is used in the rules, is in the context of "before" and "after", modifying timing windows, as per what this discussion is...

 

 

What Lyr is, crudely, pointing out - is that if we follow the Logic that Step 2 is Immediately followed by Step 3 in the attack platform - which is what you advocate by:  "Immediately after rolling your attack pool, you have several things you can resolve, and they must be resolved before the Defender starts spending Defense Tokens"

 

Then that has a follow on, and that follow on states that all steps would be the same way as precedent...  Which would mean the instant you finish a step, you move onto the next.

 

Which would mean things like, you could not Comms Net a token away, because as soon as you've gotten the Reveal and Assign of the dial done, you're on to the Shooting activation - even though the card tells you otherwise...

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Fine you want to be abusive, go right ahead. You can be the first ever forum user to go on ignore, congratulations.

 

Me and Dras can argue till we are blue in the face with each other, no name calling, no abuse, I have never once sent Dras a hatemail in PM, I respect him and his views and opinions.

 

taking Command tokens are part of the command dial resolution, sure you know how to play Armada?

 

All have listed and explained windows of resolution.

 

Not sure where I said they did not, but whatever.

 

Immediately after rolling your attack pool, you have several things you can resolve, and they must be resolved before the Defender starts spending Defense Tokens, if that is too abstract a thought for you, fine.

What abuse? You fixed Armada!

Wait. . . Could it be that you think are wrong now?

You see, you can't apply an arbitrary rule to a single card without affecting all other cards and such rules. So if you want to say that Intel Officer does not work than a majority of rules and cards don't work.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

Eastern, sorry buddy but you are really wrong about this, and your arguments simply don't make sense.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Ok so the official rules for a turn are:

First player gains benefit from Tarkin, Garm or Tagge.

Second player gains benefit from Tarkin, Garm or Tagge

Han solo may activate here

And so on

Oh hang on, none of those have a timing window

Eastern you are being foolish.

[TheEasternKing 607]

I think people are misunderstanding what I said?

 

Everything has a timing window, everything tells you when it can or cannot be used? no?

 

Can you Engine Tech at any time?

Can you Tarkin at any time?

Can you Han Solo at any time?

 

That is what I meant with everything has a timing window.

 

Intel Officer must be used after you roll the dice (You cannot use it before you roll the dice), and before the defender spends Defense tokens (it is to late to use it now). that is its timing window, honestly thought I was explaining what I meant better, clearly I was not.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

"Intel Officer must be used after you roll the dice (You cannot use it before you roll the dice), and before the defender spends Defense tokens "

 

 

Not only that.

 

It has to be spent before you Modify your own dice.

[TheEasternKing 607]

"Intel Officer must be used after you roll the dice (You cannot use it before you roll the dice), and before the defender spends Defense tokens "

 

 

Not only that.

 

It has to be spent before you Modify your own dice.

 

Right, and this is what me and you were disputing no?

Your argument is it must be used Immediately after rolling the dice, because it says "After you roll your attack pool." and After is in the RRG as being immediately after the occurrence that triggers it, yes?

It very well could be that is exactly what is intended,

But there is equal weight that it happens simultaneously with the other effects that happen after you roll your attack pool, to claim that it is not possible, or even feasible is what has driven me to reply so much in this thread.

 

There is one stage listed on the RRG for what happens after rolling, and before spending defense tokens.

 

Everything everyone else keeps throwing up as examples, have very specific wording on them to tell you when and only when they can be used, you can only Han Solo at the start of the ship phase before any ships are activated, you can only Engine Tech after you execute a maneuver and have spent either a Nav Dial or a Nav token, there is ZERO ambiguity about the use of anything else posted in this thread so far.

 

Intel Officer says after you roll your dice pool, that to me makes it ambiguous in its timing, because several things can happen after you roll your dice pool, how do you differentiate between spending an Accuracy, and rerolling dice, or adding a dice with Concentrate fire? they all have to occur after you roll your dice pool, and before the Defender spends Defense Tokens.

 

Ambiguity, but apparently when I find something ambiguous its a high crime, and time to start mocking me, or being abusive.

 

I'll mail FFG myself for clarification.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 

Intel Officer says after you roll your dice pool, that to me makes it ambiguous in its timing, because several things can happen after you roll your dice pool, how do you differentiate between spending an Accuracy, and rerolling dice, or adding a dice with Concentrate fire? they all have to occur after you roll your dice pool, and before the Defender spends Defense Tokens.

 

 

 

Because Rolling your Attack Pool is in one step, but all of those other things are another, completely separate, put to the side, enumerated point?

 

Because they don't occur, after you roll your attack pool.

 

They occur in the modify dice step.

 

Which is a different set of timing, that just happens to occur in a period of time after the Roll Dice step...

[Drasnighta 26,832]

The |Problem| here is the word, "After".

 

 

There are two definitions of the word "After"

 

One is the colloquial english language definition, in which something happens in a period of time beyond what was being talked about...

 

One is the rules defined version, which is "immediately, before anything else occurs."

 

 

 

I am using the Rules Definition.   Immediately, Before anything Else Occurs.

 

You are using the English Definition, in which is must happen in a period of time (however defined or not that may be), beyond the event happening...

[Ginkapo 9,321]

I like to use intel officer after the spend defence tokens step, makes it easier to pick a target.

It IS after the rolling the dicepool afterall.