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If I ever acquire enough money to buy Warhammer this is how I would change Warhammer Fantasy.

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I have recently rekindled my interest for warhammer, I have been playing warhammer pc games and been reading many warhammer novels.

 

This is when I found out about the end time and the age of Sigmar.

 

If I ever acquire enough money to buy Warhammer this is how I would change Warhammer Fantasy.

 

I was going to post this on warhammer.org.uk as well, but just last week they disabled the ability to register new accounts, just my luck :P

 

Anyway tell me what you think :)

 

Each paragraph is stand alone and can be removed or changed as seen fit, nothing is written in stone.

 

The World

 

I would bring back to the old warhammer fantasy world. That does not mean that age of Sigmar would be thrown out. Just as there is warhammer 40k and warhammer age of Sigmar, there would be warhammer fantasy of the old world in addition to that.

 

Unlike GW who constantly made everything darker and more grim because it is ”cool”, I want to install a bit more light and hope. Because I understand that you can not only have darkness and corruption with more corruption and darkness there needs to be light, there needs to be hope.

 

There would be less of the corruption and oppression that is currently described in the warhammer universe in the lands of men, because people who oppress others would surely be tempted by chaos and many of those who are oppressed would turn to chaos to gain power so to strike down their oppressors.

 

Time

 

The current year would be around 1525 not 2525, because the Empire could barely survive 300-400 years without magic, so the war against chaos that was 200 years ago was around 1300 not 2300.

 

Religion

 

I would possibly decrease the number of human gods, since there are so many and modify, change some of the current gods. All the old world human deities would have the same name in all the old world nations. Affariche, Haendryk, Kalita, Mercopio, O Prospero who are all merchant gods would be merged into one god, female. Albaluea, the god of farming would change name and would be a male god.

 

The Farming God

 

A farming god would be the number one worshiped god of all humans everywhere including the Empire, Sigmar would be worshiped by the nobility in the Empire, but for the common man the farming god would be the predominant deity.

 

The farming gods priests would bless the land and crops giving many more harvests per year, possibly 5 in comparison to 1. Life (nature) magic wizards can do the same, however one needs to make sure they also ”heal” the soil so that one doesn’t get soil depletion, ”healing” soil is more magically difficult than ”speed growing” crops. The farming god is relatively ”new” something like maybe a few hundred years since the first peasants began worshiping him and first priests appeared or possibly less and maybe a few decades ago was when he became ”mainstream” and surpassed all other human deities as the nr 1 human god. And with him came the potato a revolutionary crop which increased food supply several times and most importantly of course booze, but only the people of Kislev know how to make booze from potatoes and possibly some Norsca farmers too. (In the real worlds history the potato changed everything because not only does it yield more food per planted square yard than grain, it also makes more potent alcohol, so in the real world a farmer needed to use more of his crops to get completely blastered but with potatoes he could get blastered on far less crops thereby allowing his wife and children more food so that they grow healthier and survived longer and in greater numbers. This is how the Nordic countries advanced.)

 

The Farmers of Kislev learned about the Potato before the Farming god was known, perhaps 50 years. And the people learnt to make Vodka long before the farming god came. Maybe 300 years before the first farming god priests were beginning to spread the word of the farming god.

 

The Merchant God

 

The merchant god would have temples that operate like banks anyone could deposit money and withdraw money, it would be safe and guaranteed, the ownership would be checked with acolytes/priests sensing the aura of a person. This sensing would work for almost everyone without problems except magical users both arcane and divine who’s aura would grow/change, however skilled priests would be able to identify the aura. There would be almost no theft or alteration of records within the ”church” and those few who did usually did so because they had turned to chaos. With enough spells and prayers the real numbers can be recovered.

 

When depositing or withdrawing money from the merchant gods temple, the owner has a small ledger book where the acolyte / priests writes down the transaction. These ledger books are only formalities since the temple magically records the numbers. These records are then, somehow I don't know the details yet, transferred to other temples so a person can withdraw their money anywhere they like and deposit in any temple and it all adds up.

 

The merchant god does not offer magical transfer services between different people, so if a person wants to give money to another person, the money has to physically be transported. And one can not say I wish to deposit X amount into Y persons account. Each account is unique and can only be accessed by the owner.

 

The merchant gods temples would usually have marketplaces / squares, where traders, sellers and merchants could set up stands and sell their goods. Small sections would be free and larger ones would be charged a ”reasonable” rate. Sometimes around these squares shops will be established and that is how a merchant district grows, sometimes.

 

The merchant gods priests and acolytes also goes after people who shave, mill or in other ways damage coins with the purpose of fraudulent behavior.

 

Verena

 

Possibly splitting Verena into two gods, one would be Justice the other knowledge and learning.

 

Priests and acolytes of Verena would form a ”police force” where allowed, seldom in the Empire with its corruption, but quite often in Kislev, almost every large town in Kislev has at least one ”House of Verena”.

 

Shallya

 

Shallya would have both male and female priests, there would be more female acolytes with lower level of power than men, and more female clergy overall however at the upper levels of divine magical power it would be equal. So more females overall in the organization, more females with low amount of power, then as the power each individual increases so does the amount of men , and equal amount at the top tier of power.

 

Temples of Shallya are where people go to learn about healing and medicine, anyone who wants to learn about treating sick people and curing people with non magical aid, studies in a temple of Shallya. Basically temples of Shallyas do what medical schools do today, plus of course divine magic for those who can wield it. And possibly the temples teach arcane magical healers as well.

 

Priests of Shallya do not weep in their sleep.

 

Sigmar

 

Sigmar priest are split something like 70/30 or 80/20 between male and female priests

 

Priest of Sigmar may wear helmets which should not cover the face. Could be a big backstory how the

 

Priests of Sigmar reached this decission. (Not sure about this one)

 

Male Priests of Sigmar do not have to be bald (Not sure about this one)

 

Morr

 

No clergy or any warriors of Morr be they Templars, Initiates and Grand Masters of Morr do not take vows of silence, and do not cut out their tounges. ( I see no tactical or logical reason how this would help in fighting the undead.)

 

The Clergy and warriors of Morr bodies are the most difficult to raise as undead when dead.

 

All buildings related to Morr can close their doors completely, be it temples, monestaries or any type of building.

 

Myrmidia

 

Myrmidia would have both male and female priests, 50/50 split.

 

All Religions

 

All clergy and all warriors of each religion are more difficult to raise as undead, in comparison to people who are not clergy or warriors of a religion, the clergy and warriors of Morr being the most difficult.

 

Money

 

The money system would be changed, 100 coppers would be 1 silver and 100 silvers would be 1 gold, not how it is now with 12 coppers being 1 silver and 20 silver being 1 gold as described on page 103 in the 2nd edition of warhammer fantasy roleplay.

 

Dwarf coins would be the most difficult to shave, mill or damage, second would be elven coins, then after that maybe Kislev or Estalian coins, and Empire coins being the ”easiest”. The coins would be protected in different degrees by special manufacturing techniques that makes them very damage resistant, especially dwarven coins.

 

An average peasant who doesn’t get magical aid, divine or arcane, revenue per year is 1.25 gold, and that is revenue not profit. The profit is something like 5-15 silvers depending on skill and equipment. The peasant can feed his family and the ”profit” is how much he has left after that expense is factored in as well. So the profit is coin in hand so to speak. When you factor in the farming gods aid the revenue increases but market forces of supply and demand fight back so even though they get 5 harvests the profits ”only” increase 2,5 or so times. And that if he is not planting potatoes, potatoes give him even more revenue and profit and booze! These are just market theories and would need way more refinement but it is a start.

 

Magic

 

Magic would be a bit different, there would be a clear difference from when The Empire didn't allow magic and now when it does, a significant difference in fighting ability.

 

Anyone can join any priesthood, if they are of the correct alignment and spirit, however some are more naturally gifted with divine magic than others so some will progress further with divine magical abilities than others.

 

Some people are born with a gift for magic and they are the ones who can learn arcane magic, unlike now where anyone can learn but some better than others.

 

Acolytes in collages of magic are taught minor spells and as one advances one is though more complicated spells, but everyone is taught spells, unlike now where an acolyte can possibly never be taught a single spell.

 

Less chance of magical miscast, once a person knows a spell he can cast it as much as he likes, the problem comes when trying to cast a spell the requires more power than one can control or summon forth, that is when there is a risk of miscast. Not how it is described in the warhammer fantasy roleplay rulebook with a 1 in 10 chance of miscast for a lower level mage and then rolling on the miscast table risking corruption and whatnot. Because with the 1 in 10 chance basically it is guaranteed that the wizard will become severely damaged after casting only 1000 spells which might sound like a lot until you think how often one most practice per day to just master 1 spell, if you only cast 3 times a day well after 1 year you have reached 1000, basically it might be good for an rpg adventure where the character only ”lives” during that adventure but not for the back story of warhammer.

 

Light magic would offer healing like it has done in 7th edition and earlier versions of warhammer and it would not be as ”magically expensive” to cast as is described but the same amount of effort as other schools of magic. Life magic which is nature magic would possibly have some healing spells but far less potent that light magic spells, more in the line of thinking that you can achieve the same result by 2 different means. Example you can cast a fireball on a tree and the tree will start burning, you can cast a lighting bolt on a tree and it might start burning, same end result but different ways. Life magic would have abilities to ”heal” trees and plants restore their functions etc, and this could be used to heal people but far more magically expensive and less effective than light magic spells, and light magic spells could ”heal” trees and plants but less effective than life magic.

 

Healing magic both divine and arcane can regrow limbs and teeth, of course it takes time and is somewhat difficult, but possible. So to regrow an arm that has been cut at the elbow would take 3-4 hours for an average skilled acolyte who has studied magic for about 3-4 years. Reattaching the cut off arm however is much easier, even if it has been a few hours since it happened or even days, just even having the bones help. However one can not attach a body part from another person or creature the magic doesn’t work that way, it needs to be the persons own body part, the blood vessels don’t line up and the “auras” aren’t the same. That type of magic would be necromancy and dark magic to do such things. Not certain however about internal organs such as livers kidneys could be put from one person into another, but external parts, definitely no.

 

Gold/Metal magic cant change one metal into another. Also possibly the removal of metal magic.

 

Not only can a wizard access the winds of magic but he also generates his own magic and this is of course one of the 8 if he is a human wizard, or several if elven wizard, not certain yet about elves.

 

Arcane magic is not spoken but quiet, divine magic is spoken and in uses specific words, possibly the language of the gods or language of that specific deity. The better you know and pronounce the language the better ”connection” you get to the good and the stronger your spells are.

 

All magic wizards ”heal” themselves a little, basically they can function on less food than a normal person, a wizard will live longer than a normal person and recover from wounds a bit faster, light magic wizards are the ones who heal the fastest can go the longest on less food and live the longest. A non light or life wizard will live to an average of 130 years, a life wizard average of 170 and an average light wizard can live to 300. A light wizard can theoretically live forever however that would require serious skill and of course not dying in battle which is the far more common cause of death for a wizard than high age.

 

Because all mages “heal” themselves a bit, they grow taller, healthier and stronger than an average person, because the magic helps them a bit to cover not eating optimal food, not sleeping at optimal intervals etc etc. Therefore light magic wizards are often tall and physically strong individuals.

 

Most if not all light mages are good or neutral, a majority good, a minority neutral. Don't know the %.

 

Most if not all life mages are neutral and good, a majority neutral a minority good. Don't know the %.

 

Light magic can not cause earth quakes those spells belong to Jade and of course its sub category Earth magic.

 

The more magic a wizard uses the more tired he gets, so casting many spells or powerful spells makes a wizard feel drained and fatigue. However if a wizard does not cast or practice any spells he would require less sleep, than a normal person, because of the wizards ”natural healing”. Practice, skill and natural ability determine how much a wizard can cast per day.

 

Fire magic is by far the most common magic type for humans.

 

Magical schools are free and there is no 40 gold debt when a wizard begins to adventure like now in the Empire.

 

Human wizards are ”specialists” and can theoretically exceed elves in their specific field of learning. For example a human wizard of average ability can become better than an average elf if they studied for the exact amount of time. However since elves live longer and have a far greater collection of written magical lore and a more established teaching system, than this seldom happens, but theoretically it could.

 

Human magic before Teclis taught would be a mix of elamentalist magic as described by ”mad albert” and the warhammer fantasy supplement from 1995, Realms of Sorcery, plus a splash of how warhammer magic works now, possibly healing schools, defensive schools, something half similar to how the 8 split is done but not exactly like it.

 

The collages of magic in Kislev have always studied the nature of magic to understand it better than the Empire and Marienburg collages and the Kislev wizards have a deeper understanding of the essence of magic that all other nations of the old world with the possible exception of Albion.

 

The collages of magic in Marienburg have always studied the nature of magic to understand it better and they have made some progress towards understanding it, less than those in Kislev, but more than those in the Empire.

 

The collages of magic in Altdorf have begun to study the nature on magic, not as much as the mages of Kislev and Marienburg have done but more than the current warhammer world describes.

 

The schools of magic that existed in the empire before Teclis can basically be seen as sub categories of the 8 collages of magic. With the exception of fire magic which is fire magic.

 

Wind magic is sub specialization of some of the celestial magic.

 

Water magic is a sub specialization of some of Jade magic

 

Earth magic is a sub specialization of some of Jade magic, earth quake spells are very difficult to cast and very very few mages posses that ability, and when they do manage to cast them they are ”reasonable” earth quakes, the earth quakes do not shake the tectonic plates but possibly just the tops soil of the ground maybe a foot or maybe less down, but the ground does shake.

 

Healing magic a sub category of some of light magic.

 

Death magic mages or Priests of Morr can not communicate in other peoples dreams.

 

Death magic mages telepathy would possibly be removed or weakened a bit.

 

Possibly only the Slann are capable of telepathy.

 

Necromancy would be a bit different, currently a necromancer or vampire can raise a limitless amount of bodies if only they are close enough and instantly, this for me is much to powerful because all that he needs to do is raise and attack raise and attack continuously and do serious damage, even if he is defeated then the next necromancer or vampire that comes around a few years later could do the same thing. My changes would be that an ok skilled necromancer needs about 8-10 days to create 1 walking corpse, if he works about 10 hours a day and if there are “raw materials” available. So after 10 years of work he would have about 300-400 corpses and could with that army and his own magic he could harass several villages and do serious damage. A skilled necromancer can maybe create a corps in 3-5 days but he can also create bigger “constructs”.

 

Possibly removal of all teleportation spells, except when a daemon is destroyed, and possibly allow Slann to be able to teleport some distance away if they are about to fall in battle.

 

Possibly the removal of the Skaven escape teleportation spell, or have it be a mix of arcane and divine spell which the Horned rats sometimes grants its servants if they prey for it.

 

Nations

 

Marienburg

 

The Marienburg split happened when magic was outlawed in the empire and the mages emigrated to Marienburg, this all happened under the Emperor Goldgather who rules around year 1000 or so, maybe 900, the mages and the armies there inflict huge losses on the magic-less Emperors armies. When the Marieburg split happened or some time after, some of the humans were able to convince some elves with some magical ability to teach them some things, so Mareinburg would have 8 collages of magic, plus their sea magic collage.

 

When Magic was forbidden in the Empire, mages would emigrate, usually to Merienburg or Kislev, but sometimes even further, and this would continue until magic was allowed again.

 

The Marienburg navy is mostly defensive and has some merchant vessels which trade in the old world and as far as Araby an average of one ship every few months or so travel there. Sometimes, very rarely, a ship will make a trip to the far east but it happens rarely since the trips is very dangerous and the far is east is far away. Maybe once every 5 years a captain decides and succeeds in traveling there and coming back.

 

Kislev

 

Kislev would have magical colleges in Erengrad, 8 collages and the conclusions for the 8 different would have come from the Kislev people themselves who figured it out and then after had some help and confirmation by some elves. The College of Ice Magic would be in Kislev and there would be both male and female ice mages. The God Ursun would have chain mail armor and not like now where he is in his underwear. They would have bear riders who wield well made 1handed axes and shields and would wear mostly chain mail, and sometimes full plate if they could afford it. Very few would be ”evil”, there would mostly be good and neutral people there. Kislev would have some type of power sharing where there was a Tzar and Tzarina and some form of noble representation in some type of “assembly” who could vote and have some power.

 

In Kislev all mages are called either acolytes, wizards with some title before or after the word wizard or mages. There are no official titles “witches”, and no mage would tolerate being called a witch, and no normal person would call a wizard that because of both respect of their talents, and fear of what a mage might do to them.

 

Kislev would be completely different than it is now, the people of Kislev would be mostly “good stable” people, there would be no serfs or slaves, vastly less corruption and oppression because Kislev on the border with chaos could simply not afford any of it.

 

Since Kislev is so close to the border of chaos some of those who would be susceptible to chaos would be drawn to chaos before they have children, thereby leaving those who are a bit more chaos resistant to have more children than those who are susceptible.

 

Since Kislev is so close to the border of chaos, there would be magics both divine and arcane developed to check if someone is tainted by chaos and there would be regular checks both magical and non magical to see if one is tainted, for example once a week or two citizens need to undress together with the other villagers in the village hall or in a temple with all other members of the same gender in front of the village elders, or something like that. Regular checks. If done properly won't take more than maybe half an hour or less.

 

Because of these regular checks both magical and non magical there are few chaos people who can live hidden in society thereby forcing them to move, thereby allowing individuals who are less chaos susceptible to have more children than those who are chaos susceptible thereby increasing the % of individuals who are less chaos susceptible, which has given the current population mix in Kislev of “good stable” people. Because of these checks basically a somewhat less chaos susceptible population has been bred forward, as in won't easily worship the chaos gods or turn towards chaos.

 

These checks, “breeding”, tradition and history has given a population that is neutral and good, with a very few evil individuals and those who are evil are a bit less susceptible to chaos than those humans who are evil in other lands. That does not mean the evil people are less evil, just they wont turn to chaos as often but some of course do.

 

To clarify, the “breeding” is not something mandated or ordered, it just happened by itself because of the rules that made it harder for a chaos susceptible person to stay in Kislev, thereby leaving those who are less chaos susceptible thereby increasing the % of less chaos susceptible people.

 

In Kislev peasants do not ”own” the land. They are allowed to build houses and work the fields as if it was their own but they can't sell or borrow against the land. How much land each peasant is given is determined by the quality of land and how much a 10 strong household could work if they worked full time, so the possibility of making profits is quite high. Kislev has no shortage of workable land, any person can go to the ”land bureau” and be given a ”plot”. Usually when children come of age they can claim a piece of land but there might not be any available land near where they live so they might have to move a considerable distance. When the ”owners” of a piece of land dies it is given to the children if they still live there usually the eldest who is still living there, if none of the children still live there or want to return or have children of their own which can take over, then the land reverts back to the ”land bureau” and is given to some other peasant who requests land. The piece of land is not divided among the children, a household much take over the whole thing.

 

Larger ”plots” of land are available the more to the north, not only because the land is of lesser quality but also to compensate for living closer to chaos.

 

In Kislev anyone can join ”the army” both male and female and sign up for X amount of years at a time, there is always a need for soldiers. Male and Females fight almost always in separate battalions, priests, and mages being the exception.

 

Kislev is constantly at war, every few years a band of somewhat considerable size will launch an attack on the land of Kislev. Every few decades a pretty serious sized army will attack, and every few hundred years there are these big incursions of chaos.

 

Because Kislev has good and stable people, they can handle these wars and the population despite the constant warfare was actually growing but marginally. If Kislev could however bee free from war even for just a single generation it could become the strongest nation in the old world.

 

With the establishment of the farming god and the potato, the population of Kislev has actually increased to a bit more than marginal.

 

Kislev has far better ”medical” care than the Empire and hygiene is far higher because a long tradition of magic, few evil people, respect for the healing sciences and religion, few children die at an early age many survive, which means large families of 8 being the normal but 17 or more not unheard of.

 

Even though Kislev invented Vodka the soldiers and the people drink far less than the people of the empire, and it is considered a dishonor to be drunk before a battle. If one is not in control of senses one is making it easier for chaos to win and ones friends, family and countrymen of dying. The people of Kislev drink and celebrate when they are safe and secure, when they do not have to do battle for at least a couple of days. This could be one

 

Kislev does not attack the Empire but sometimes has to protect itself from corrupt nobles of the Empire who launch attacks against Kislev’s southern border. Kislev has never lost any of its land for long to an Empire invader and has always reclaimed lost land, eventually.

 

Bretonnia

 

The Bretonnians would be like they were in the 5th edition with true noble ideals and pure leaders, not the corrupt oppression that is now. The lady of the lake would be a pure human deity and not the elven god Lilieath using the humans as a meat shield for the wood elves. Bretonnia would have collages of magic and both male and female wizards.

 

The Empire

 

The Empire could be almost as corrupt at it is now because Kislev protects it from the North, Bretonnia and Mareinburg from the West and mountains with Dwarfs to the South and East, thereby allowing the Empire the luxury of corruption and incompetence.

 

When a corrupt noble assumes power they usually kick out priests of Verena.

 

Estalia

 

Estalia is somewhat united land in a lose confederacy under a Myrmidian theocracy and it is a stable and ”fair” rule, the priests are not corrupt or evil. Estalia still has different somewhat independent provinces with different laws and traditions but they very rarely war against each other and will respond to a call from the Myrmidian leadership.

 

The Estalian “unification” happened anywhere from 50-10 years ago, I am not certain.

 

The Estalians now, somewhat, united have declared “a crusade” against the skaven to reclaim the lost city of Kazavar also know as Tylos now know as Skavenblight and its surrounding land. Since they found out what happened possibly by cross references of old books and divine guidance.

 

The Eastalian navy is mostly defensive and has some merchant vessels which trade in the old world and as far as Araby a few ships a year travel there. Sometimes, very rarely, a ship will make a trip to the far east but it happens rarely since the trips is very dangerous and the far is east is far away. Maybe once every 10 or 15 years a captain decides and succeeds in traveling there and coming back.

 

After the “unification” of Estalia and the declaration of the crusade against the Skaven to get back Karzavar all expeditions into other lands have been called back, and no more ships travel to Lustria. Ships have instead increased trade with the old world and now a few travel to Araby every 6 months or so, an average of about 1 every 2 or 3 months.

 

The Estalians had before unification some hedge wizards and some type of elamentalists and healing schools in some of the different “states”. But since the unification they have begun establishing collages of magic with some help from Kislev and maybe something from Marienburg, the Empire, and maybe even some elves giving some minor help.

 

Because Kislev wizards and guidance played a somewhat significant role in helping establishing organized magic, there could possibly a sub section of the Jade collage of ice magic with a few Esalian ice mages.

 

Since Marienburg also helped somewhat and because Estalia is somewhat of a seafaring nation another sub section of the jade collage is devoted to sea magic.

 

Estalia has to now and again fight off dark elven invasion/ slave raids. The dark elfs come now and again to loot, pillage and raid the Estalian coasts, mostly for slaves.

 

After Estalia became somewhat united it has also tried to establish a better rapport with Tilean states and some in Estalia are even considering a unification with its neighbor but such and act would possibly require the reclaiming of Kazavar.

 

Tilea

 

Inspired of the unification of Estalia at least 2 Tilean states have merged.

 

The farming god has become quiet popular in many of the fertile lands have stopped declaring war as often on each other and have begun building up their own states instead. Myrmidia is still however the primary deity of the nobility and upper classes.

 

The Border Prince, Human nation

 

The Creation of a very new ”country”, 20- years old or so maybe even much younger, somewhere in the Border Prince region starting out with maybe nothing more than a town. A light magic mage who was feed up with the corruption and bull in the Empire, tired of witch hunters burning the innocent and bowing to the guilty, tired of ”nobles” oppressing the weak and the nobles constant infighting, establishes this ”land” where he is king but where there are no nobles and all citizens can vote for a representative, so a form of constitutional democracy.

 

In this new land, all the human deities, of the old world, who are either good or neutral are given one guaranteed seat, if of course they have a priest and/or worshipers. Depending of the age of the country the ”house” might not be fully representative of a normal human population because simply there aren’t enough people living there. Most people usually vote for someone from the clergy so the ”house” is almost completely filled with representatives from different religions. If the country had been old like maybe 100 or 200 years then the farming god would have the largest representation and Morr the god of death only having his one guaranteed seat, because not many would vote for the god of death. But since it is a new country the seat distribution might be different. And of course in the warhammer world where there are actual gods, these priests are stable people who are not easily corrupted.

 

The new country which is/was not much more than an empty piece of land that grew/ will grow into a small town/ hamlet was established by; the light mage, a priest and a few acolytes of Verena, a few priests, 2-3, and a bit more acolytes of Shallya, a priest and a handful of acolytes of Myrmidia, and a single priest of Morr, in addition to that maybe some acolytes of the farming god were also there from the beginning or joined a bit after 1-2 years. At about 1-2 years after the establishment a priest of the merchant god arrived.

 

This new country in the Border Prince also has magic with the help of Verna and possibly also Shallya, that can detect the alignment of a person, and in addition to that has 3 rules. No individual naturally evil may become a citizen of the land, no individually naturally evil may permanently settle in the land, no individually naturally evil may be born into the land. Which means that almost everyone is either good or neutral.

 

In this new country priests and acolytes of Verena operate a ”police force”.

 

In this new country with the help of Verena the establishment of collages of magic has begun.

 

In this new country there will be and/or is far fewer death magic and grey magic wizards than in the Empire in proportion to its population. There will be and/or is however more light magic wizards in proportion to its population than in the Empire.

 

The Border Prince, a Dwarven hold

 

Somewhere in the border prince a dwarf hold with expatriate dwarfs is established or a dwarven hold lets in many expatriate dwarfs and in this hold dwarven mages are let in, with some back story how a dwarven mage together with some human mages helped in the defense of the hold against attackers who surely, without the magic, would have killed many of the dwarfs but because of the magic the dwarfs lost very few lives and possibly not a single one.

 

This hold also allows female dwarfs to assume any profession just as expatriate dwarfs do and this hold starts with the dwarf program of 1 child per year per woman, more about that later under races.

This hold is also somewhere relatively close located to the new human “town” maybe at most 20 miles, not certain about the distance, but “close”. Less than a days walk.

 

This Dwarven hold could be Karak Grom as described in Nathan Longs novel the battle of skull pass with some modifications to the story.

 

A Vampire Nation

 

I am not certain about this one if it fits into the warhammer world, it is something I have been thinking about in general fantasy terms.

 

A vampire nation that is ruled by vampires but treats their people like a farmer treats their cattle. Not like how Sylvania is described now where the people are half starved, mentally retarded and the very definition of idiocy. But instead where the people are well feed and there is almost no crime or corruption. The vampires do not oppress or harass the people but instead provide real security, every criminal is sentenced to being drained, perhaps not completely but significantly for several days, or perhaps completely, not sure if there are degrees depending on crime or if all crimes are sentenced with death, and that is how the vampires keep themselves fed. If you do not break the laws which are perfectly normal laws not oppressive corruption or anything like that you can live a perfectly normal life.

 

In addition to that I would add “a hierarchy of blood” where dragon blood is the most potent for the vampires, then elven and dwarven, then hippogriff and unicorn blood, then humans and halfling blood, then lizardmen and pegasi blood, then ogre and orc blood, then goblin and skaven blood, then animal blood with its own hierarchy. Not exactly sure about the order could require some tweaking.

 

The vampires themselves prefer to drink higher quality blood since proportionally it gives the most power for the least amount, but the vampires will when needed drink animal blood as well, larger quantities are of course required and one can not get the same type of power but it is enough to be “alive” and operate at an “ok” capacity.

 

The vampires of the nation also drain people just before the people die of high age or when people are about to die from sickness or injury.

 

All dead bodies, from any type of death are then take by the vampires and used as “raw materials” for the vampires creations.

 

The would be some type of “rules” for who gets which body, who gets to drink and a market where blood rights, bodies and body parts were sold.

 

All religions are forbidden in the land since “holy” objects damage the undead.

 

Maybe making silver illegal to use in coinage and creation of any items. And maybe not, am uncertain about this one.

 

This vampire nation could be anywhere possibly Sylvania and possibly not.

 

This nation could possibly be close to the dark elves, possibly on the same continent as the dark elves somewhere on the border with chaos, making an interesting story how some human slaves who escaped did so by either being turned by a vampire or making some deal with an evil “spirit / higher power that is non chaos” And this “deity” is “worshiped” by the vampires who offer sacrifices to it.

 

Or somewhere in the world that has been attacked by the dark elves or somewhere along the sea raiding routes of dark elves.

 

In this vampire nation dark elves are held prisoner sometimes intact, sometimes with their eye plucked out, tongues, feet and hands cut off, fed and kept alive to be drained by the vampires possibly for eternity unless the dark elf somehow escapes or dies.

 

The vampire nation is ruled by a Vampire male who has some pretty ok skills in magic and fighting but is a bit unstable, since only an unstable vampire could create such a nation with these laws. Or it could be ruled by the vampire female Neferata who studied humans for several millennia, and this nation and its laws is the conclusion of those studies.

 

The vampires as I wrote do not hurt or oppress the human “subjects” and instead by following the “vampire laws” are quite well fed and have plenty of “raw materials” to “create” with. Since this is the Warhammer world the vampires always have a supply of orc and skaven blood, because there is always an orc or skaven attack somewhere or the vampires can just go down in the earth and find skaven tunnels and get all the blood and “raw materials” that they need. Plus of course the dark elves that they have captured, and continue to capture when the opportunity presents itself.

 

The vampire Nation could be Lahmia.

 

The vampire nation does not actively attack dwarfs or high elves, the vampires will of course defend them selves if attacked but do not actively seek out and attack dwarfs and high elves. If for some reason a dwarf or high elf is involved in some sort of fight, then the vampire/s take them back to vampire/s “home” and drain their blood of course but they do not use the bodies for “constructs” they destroy the bodies so that no evidence of them ever being there is removed.

 

The vampire nation does not attack other human nations unless someone there is threatening an attack on the vampire nation or is planing a raid or some form of attack.

 

The vampires only actively attack dark elves, greenskins, skaven, forces of chaos and other type of “aggressive” forces. However the vampires will avoid attacking the forces of “order” if possible.

 

Because of how the system works, the vampire nation could possibly be the strongest vampire nation for several thousand years, even rivaling Lahmia at its height of power, and if things continue as they have, then this vampire nation could possibly become the most powerful vampire nation ever, and possibly the strongest “human” nation ever.

 

Many vampires do not approve of how things are run, even though the results are far greater than anything any other vampire could achieve under any other type of system, however as long as the “leader” is in charge the vampires keep their opinions to them selves and follow the laws.

 

Albion

 

Albion would have two Islands on big and one small, the isle of wights where few or no people live.

 

The different factions of Albion have united under one ruler possibly recently, possibly when Gotrek and Felix visited, because they came to the realization that if they constant attack and steal from each other they will forever be poor and weak but if they work together and build they can reclaim their lost land and keep the dark elves at bay.

 

Also with the unification came the establishment of the farming god who helps with the weather and constant rain despite the mists, without affecting the protective abilities of the stones. So the mists form a barrier around the Islands but there would be sun in the middle. It would still rain more often than it does in the Empire, but not as often as it does now, and it would be possibly to plant and cultivate crops.

 

The truthsayers have now gathered together and constructed a “college/s” because they are now more organized than before they have begun purifying the stones.

 

The farming gods magic plus the now gathering of truthsayers into a “college” has begun to purify the land.

 

Once the people are numerous enough and developed enough they can remove the mists that surround Albion and take their land back from the rain.

 

After Gotrek, Felix and Teclis visited the Island, Teclis returned with a group of mages who helped close down and purify the passage ways of the old ones, and purify and stabilize the Oghma stones.

 

The elves also helped in the establishment of the “collage/s” of magic.

 

The lizardmen at some point arrived and took each and every magical item and anything that wasn’t part of a stone building, so all items, tablets, treasure, everything, except the temple/s it / them selves were taken. And then the Lizardmen left.

 

Possibly the removing of the Oghma stones from Albion altogether that they never were placed there never existed and the mists came from some other source and the Giants might never have been there or were placed to protect the Temple/s of the old ones. Possibly only having one temple of the old ones and it is now almost completely destroyed / gone. Possibly having the Turthsayers protecting the passageways of the old ones and the one temple now with the destruction of both they instead now have a new purpose.

 

Technology

 

No gunpowder or steam power, since in my mind it can't be fantasy if there is gunpowder, again nothing is written in stone.

 

Races

 

Humans

 

All Humans in the old world speak ”common” with some mild variations, very rare just some words here or there and possibly pronunciation.

 

Dwarfs

 

Dwarfs have flamethrowers ”cannons” which can fire ”on and off” and not needed to be firing constantly, powered by runes and have a ”ammo load” of about 30 seconds up to 5 minutes depending on quality of rune before a few days of recharging is required. The runes recharge themselves over time. Range is from an average of 50 yards up to 200 or so for high quality runes. (During ww2 the average range was 20-40 yards and 10-20 seconds was about what a flamethrower soldier had in his tube and he could inflict a lot of damage with that.)

 

Not certain about this one; Dwarfs are more carbon dioxide resistant than any other race, so they can sometimes burn away some of the oxygen thereby chocking an opposing force, if properly done. They have special runes that burn away oxygen. And they have runes that create oxygen. Defensive passages usually have ”low ventilation” And only the ”main road” has a good stable amount of oxygen. I don't know if this tactic is new or has been used for many years.

 

Not certain about this; Dwarfs also have runes that can drain all magic of any type except other runes, of magic. So a powerful rune could drain away even a divine magic items or a very corrupt magic item. Different runes for different types of magic. There are runes that drain away all types of magic, and there are specialists rune that drain specific types of magic. These type of runes prevent undead from simply overrunning dwarf holds. But of course the runes can only drain so much magic per minute there are limitations of course. But they don’t drain ”the winds of magic” that naturally flow over the world.

 

Dwarfs have runes that strengthen rocks and earth, thereby making it almost impossible to dig under Dwarf holds or attack them by breaking through their walls. Preventing the ever nagging theory of why goblins and skaven simply don't just dig a big hole under dwarf holds and simply have it fall.

 

Dwarfs have runes that can ”heal” rocks, thereby rearing cracks and fissures

 

Dwarfs have special boxes where on puts magical items and the runes then drain away the magic from the items. The runes can be removed relatively ”easy” for an average rune smith. Then other boxes with other runes that convert that magic to ”neutral rune magic” and finally other runes that convert this neutral rune magic to specific rune magic needed for a rune. So a rune is made with both or either capturing the winds of magic into a rune and or transferring magic into it from one of these collector runes.

 

Dwarfs rune masters do not have the ”rule of pride” this might be good in a tabletop game but not in the whole back story of warhammer. Of course there are copies of rune and rune combinations on many runic weapons, since obviously there are only so many different type of runes.

 

Dwarfs have very few ”thieves” even expatriate dwarfs are very very rarely if ever thieves.

 

Slayers: As I see it Slayers in warhammer usually don't have armor because of 2 reasons, 1 was that in the tabletop game it would have made for a very expensive and powerful unit for the dwarfs to have an unbreakable, undamagable unit. Secondly they most likely weren't given armor because of how it looks; shirtless dwarfs shouting and making faces is an esthetically different thing from fully armored dwarfs. So in my version slayers could of course have armor however, when a dwarf becomes a slayer he doesn’t want to burden the family more by walking of with an heirloom and expensive piece of craftdwarfship, so he takes only what he needs, a slayer can of course buy an armor or if his whole clan was slain use the family armor, in addition to that the wear and tear of a slayers armor would be greater than a normal dwarfs because the slayer constantly seeks out battle.

 

I want at some time in recent history around 20 or 30 years ago have the Dwarfs re-evaluate their birth system. Currently a female dwarf usually has 4 children, there are 3 males born for each female, a net zero birth rate. A female is pregnant for 9 months just like a human. and has1-3 husbands. However I want there to be some big back story where the dwarfs were forced to answer and do a proper calculation on why they didn't simply have one child per year and how many Dwarfs would be born if they had one child per year per married female and how many lost holds that could be reclaimed with such an increase in numbers. Upon seeing the numbers after the proper calculation made by Dwarfs, at least one hold began having more children.

 

Dwarfs, who are not chaos dwarfs, and mages are very rare as described in the Warhammer fantasy roleplay supplement Dwarfs Stone and Steel. To what is written their I want to add some things. Dwarfs who do study magic are expatriates, usually learn elamentalist magic, Fire, Earth, as described in the book, and maybe Wind and Lightning. Dwarfs know far fewer spells, their magic is less powerful, but they make far fewer mistakes and are very corruption resistant. Because they make less mistakes and usually live longer than humans the net effect can still be some pretty ok magic. Dwarfs also have higher endurance than human wizards and can cast longer and require less time to recover after casting many spells, in comparison with human wizards.

 

Dwarfs do not pass on grudges made against human on their descendants. Dwarfs do not judge humans by dwarven stndards. A Dwarf is a Dwarf and a Human is a Human. Possibly some back story to this a grudge being made againsta a human and his descendant/s making a good case infron of the high king that one can not judge human by dwarven standards.

 

Dwarfs have good teeth that do not suffer often from diseases.

 

Elves

 

The Elves of Ulthan hearing about the dwarven birth program also started having more children, not as many as 1 per year, but more than they currently do, and greater than their death rate. The Dark Elves did not because of how their society is constructed.

 

Elves have good teeth that do not suffer often from diseases.

 

Halflings

 

Halflings are more kind than the current warhammer version and less obnoxious,c loser to how they are described in the Fantasy Roleplay rulebook excluding roleplaying hint section, so no slang or invention of new words and less rude gestures. They do fight and have skilled archers and possibly crossbow units, cross bows bought from humans and maybe dwarfs.

 

Halflings are much healthier than human and rarely get sick. Halfling teeth are also much better than human teeth and rarely if ever suffer any problems.

 

Vampires

 

Vampires rarely make mistakes, and have strong memories.

 

Vampires learn “slower” in everything both magic and fighting, but because they make few mistakes have strong memories then once they learnt it they know it. Factor in that they live for a long time and you have a powerful creature indeed.

 

Greenskins

 

Orcs don't have to eat nearly as often as humans, but the bigger an orc is the more often he has to eat. An orc that is 1,5 meters tall would need to eat 2 pounds per month to survive of normal ”food”, however an orc can if needed eat trees and grass to survive but he needs far greater quantities. Greenskin feel hunger yes but they can survive longer on less food. An orc who is 2 meters tall needs to eat about 10 pounds of food every 2 to 3 days to survive, not certain about the numbers lots of fine tuning needed, but basically orcs can live on less food, that is how there are so many of them. Same goes for goblins they can eat less than humans and survive longer but proportionally they need to eat more than orcs if their weight were the same.

 

The more an orc eats and fights the bigger he grows, the bigger he grows the more he needs to eat.

 

I don't know exactly how I would handle orc birth, if there are females or if orcs are created by ”spore” or something else.

 

Skaven

 

Skaven also need less food to survive and function than a human if they weighed the same.

 

Skaven do not have many of their machines but they do have some type of warpstone lightning cannons, that are very unreliable.

 

Lizardmen

 

At some time in recent history, maybe 20 years ago, a human or elven wizard of great healing ability by some reason arrives in Lustria and because of some big back story he is able to heal the mummified body of Lord Kroak of Itza a little bit, healing not reanimate, and because of the healing plus the magic of the Lizardmen Lord the body will now over the next few thousand of years heal itself completely. Already with this small amount of “life” Lord Kroak Itza is able to take a more active role in the lizardmen society.

 

At some time in recent history the Slann, possibly Lord Kroak, discover how to spawn other Slann, or the spawning pools are activated by themselves some old directive by the old ones kicking in, however these Slann vary in power most will be weaker of strength than those of the fifth spawning but a few will be stronger one possibly as strong as the Slann of the second spawning. They spawn at a rate of possibly one every few years or maybe slower.

 

At some time in recent history no more than 150 years ago maybe even just 20 years ago, the Slann got knowledge of a theory that perhaps the Old Ones did not have a final plan as a sculpture how the different races and the world would evolve but instead as a gardener would guide and cultivate them. Also the idea of that possibility the Old Ones are gone and now we who are left must try and make the best of the situation. To fight chaos and its servants is of course one the Lizardmens goal, and they now understand that other races, or at least individual of other races also fight chaos.

 

History

 

The ancient city of Kazavar, known also as Tylos, Til, Tilea, never used slaves or had slaves.

 

The Old Ones were here between 15000 years before Sigmar until about 5600 years before Sigmar, not like in the newest edition only 200 years. Maybe not 10,000 years but much more than 200.

Edited by GoldenIslandsonYouTube

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I would rather just have the old world back.

 

The problem with changes is you start messing with the formula that people love about the old world.

 

Not saying you have bad ideas, (Leave my poor empire and Sigmar alone lol.) Just some of the changes like no black powder could be changed by playing in a different time in the old world history.

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I would rather just have the old world back.

 

The problem with changes is you start messing with the formula that people love about the old world.

 

Not saying you have bad ideas, (Leave my poor empire and Sigmar alone lol.) Just some of the changes like no black powder could be changed by playing in a different time in the old world history.

 

I understand completely what you are saying, any alteration to the lore does indeed ruffle some feathers. And yes the black powder change would a bit controversial. That being said each change is unique, one does not need to like each and every change, they are all stand alone. However I will move the black powder down since it might put people off with that specific change being among the first ones that they read.

Now, what do you think about the other changes, for example that the Marienburg split happened when magic was outlawed in the empire and the mages emigrated to Marienburg, do you you have any opinions on that or any other part of my list?

Edited by GoldenIslandsonYouTube

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Making magic illegal in the empire would it hard to want to make a magic user, it already is difficult as it is because of all the superstition they face.

 

In the current warhammer lore, magic was (mostly) illegal in the Empire during several periods on and off between about 1100 until 2300 when Magnus the Pious. with the help from Teclis. established the Collages of Magic in Altdorf. That is why I wrote these changes. It is not I who made it illegal it already was and I want to modify it :)

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What I dislike with these proposed changes are:

 

Changing the gods

Slayers wearing armor

Bretonnia not being highely oppressive in regards to their commoners

 

What I do however like are:

 

No gunpowder (hurra!)

More reasonable timeframes for the Empire and the Old Ones

 

Something that could be discussed

 

The Dwarf "baby machine programe" don't come off to well to me. I Think that a dwindling dwarf population is part of their theme in that their time is coming to an end, but this "baby machine" might leave a bad taste in many people's mouths. I think that perhaps a better solution if you want there to be more Dwarfs would simply be to say that Dwarfs simply have more children from the start rather than having it be a the result of some social engineering which could strike people in the wrong way. Or at least that's what I in my potential ignorance think it could go down. 

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What I dislike with these proposed changes are:

 

Changing the gods

Slayers wearing armor

Bretonnia not being highely oppressive in regards to their commoners

 

What I do however like are:

 

No gunpowder (hurra!)

More reasonable timeframes for the Empire and the Old Ones

 

Something that could be discussed

 

The Dwarf "baby machine programe" don't come off to well to me. I Think that a dwindling dwarf population is part of their theme in that their time is coming to an end, but this "baby machine" might leave a bad taste in many people's mouths. I think that perhaps a better solution if you want there to be more Dwarfs would simply be to say that Dwarfs simply have more children from the start rather than having it be a the result of some social engineering which could strike people in the wrong way. Or at least that's what I in my potential ignorance think it could go down. 

Hello man, let me first say thank you for your reply and your time :)

Secondly it was brilliant of you to write a list of things that you like and do not like, that is exactly how I in my mind subconsciously was thinking people would respond, and I did not truly realize it until I saw it :)

Now about your comments.

 

First about the things that you like, lets eat the candy first before dinner :D

 

That you like the no gunpowder suggestion is very interesting since I believe it to be the most controversial of all my suggestions, glad to see that some people would be positive towards such a modification :)

 

About the timelines, yes they had not be throughly thought through by the people over at warhammer especially the people who cut down the old ones visit to merely 200 years. About the Empire timeline change it has mostly to do with magic and how, as I see it, the Emprie could not have survived for 1200 years with magic being illegal on and off during that period, when the Empire enemies, Chaos, Greenskins, Skave etc all used magic.

 

About the Dwarf baby program. Currently in the warhammer lore, each female has on average 4 children and the distribution of male/female is 3 males born for every 1 female, this is the current lore. To install a bit of hope into the warhammer world, I want the possibility of the dwarven race growing so that they possibly one day can possibly reclaim their lost holds. Also I was thinking of gaming terms for example if I ever owned GW I would of course make a warhammer mmo, it would of course be successful and would of course have millions of millions players of course :) So how then does one justify there being so many dwarfs, that is how the "calculation" comes in at some point during some time the dwarfs were faced with the question of their status as a dying race why they didn't simply have more children, and because of some reason some dwarfs made a calculation of the theory IF they each female had a child per year how long would it take to reclaim all their lost holds. Of course increasing the basic standard from 4 to a higher number would of course provide a solution, but I would like there to be a sudden influx of young dwarfs.

 

The gods are almost the same in the whole of the old world, Myrmidia, Taal, Morr, Verena and many more are all known in all of the old World, so is Shallya with only a slight modification of the name in Kislev. So because the gods are almost known exactly the same in all of the old world, I want to change it that they are know the same. Also if there a duplicate gods such as in being 5 different merchant gods I would like to merge them into 1 god for practical reasons. About the farming god, from my perspective it would be logical for peasant worshiping a god that would help them in their daily lives, since most people in the old world are peasants then that god would have the most worshiper, that is my reasoning.

 

About the slayers, for a dwarf suicide is unthinkable and very dishonorable even a slayer most try his very best to defeat an enemy and only dying after he has done his very utmost best. So by keeping tot hat line of thinking a slayer would wear armor if he could afford it, but often the armor would in different states of disrepair because of the constant fighting and sometimes there would be no armor at all because he simply didn't have enough money to repair it, the damage would exceed his ability to repair or pay for repairs.

 

About the brets, this is the thing I feel the strongest about, If I owned warhammer than on day one my first decision before all other would be to roll back the bretonnians to the 5th edition lore. I want it to be the Arthurian ideal of a country with real chivalry and real nobility of all the things I have written this one item is the one I feel the strongest about.

 

Again thank you for your time and your thoughts, are there perhaps any other of my suggestions that you like or have an opinion on?

Edited by GoldenIslandsonYouTube

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I suspect that changing the "fluff" too much is always going to be radical and probably should be done more as a "warhammer inspired" world than "a version of the Old World".

 

For myself, for example, I have nothing against a skirmish wargame (they can be fun, check out Frostgrave or Dragon Rampant) but GW didn't have to blow up my favourite fictional world to shift to that basis for selling its models (there was this thing called Mordheim once after all).  It's mucking with the fluff that got me seriously *&*'d at them.

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I suspect that changing the "fluff" too much is always going to be radical and probably should be done more as a "warhammer inspired" world than "a version of the Old World".

 

For myself, for example, I have nothing against a skirmish wargame (they can be fun, check out Frostgrave or Dragon Rampant) but GW didn't have to blow up my favourite fictional world to shift to that basis for selling its models (there was this thing called Mordheim once after all).  It's mucking with the fluff that got me seriously *&*'d at them.

 

Yes you are right on everything :)

 

Changes to the fluff how ever small will be met with resistance, changing a lot of the fluff will be met by even more resistance :)

 

Yes the GW model was bad, constantly raising prices so that fewer newer people joined and the established people bought less and less leading to GW blowing up the whole world.

 

I am of the belief that several of the key decision makers at GW are possibly only interested in their own personal salaries and not so much in delivering a good product. For example the CEO of GW giving himself a salary of 400,000 British Pound Sterling. I do not thinkt hat the new guys who took over from the original generation had any real interest in warhammer it was just a job to them not a passion. I believe that possibly they never liked the product at all and now after blowing upt he world they want to copy the feeling of warcraft hoping that such a thing will increase profits. Quite ironic because warcraft and starcraft was made because those people could not negotiate a good price with GW on the games they wanted to develop :P

 

GW profits have been falling for a decade ever since they made the world a bit darker because they thought it would be "cooler". However I am of the opinion that most people want hope, the possibility of everything working out ok in the end, and not constant corruption and darkness. By changing that base and their bad business model they have almost destroyed the product and the company.

Anyway, did you like any of my suggestions, was there something that you personally liked?

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Wow lots of ideas, clearly a lot of thought has gone into this. I applaud you for your work and effort.

I am with you, I like the 'noble' Bretonnians with its grounding in Arthurian legends and the odd smattering of Robin Hood.

One question though, you mentioned you wanted to reduce the number of gods in The Empire, but then detail 8 that you would include (with the seperate parts of Verena) - I know this reduces the number from 9/10 (Rhya/Taal 1 or 2?), but I assumed you would reduce the number drastically to 3 or 4, or maybe only 1?

Good work though, personally I am happy with the iterations that have been so far and would rather mix and match between the 8 versions that have been created than start afresh. But your game so you are welcome to create it however you like. It does sound a lot more fun that the current Age of Sigmar though. But that is just my prejudices, I am not happy they blew up the world and created this sword and sorcery version of 40,000.

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Wow lots of ideas, clearly a lot of thought has gone into this. I applaud you for your work and effort.

I am with you, I like the 'noble' Bretonnians with its grounding in Arthurian legends and the odd smattering of Robin Hood.

One question though, you mentioned you wanted to reduce the number of gods in The Empire, but then detail 8 that you would include (with the seperate parts of Verena) - I know this reduces the number from 9/10 (Rhya/Taal 1 or 2?), but I assumed you would reduce the number drastically to 3 or 4, or maybe only 1?

Good work though, personally I am happy with the iterations that have been so far and would rather mix and match between the 8 versions that have been created than start afresh. But your game so you are welcome to create it however you like. It does sound a lot more fun that the current Age of Sigmar though. But that is just my prejudices, I am not happy they blew up the world and created this sword and sorcery version of 40,000.

 

 

Thank you for your kind words :)

 

I was reading the Gotrek and Felix Series, and somewhere in there I began writing down how I would change warhammer. It was all great fun. The Gotrek and Felix series are very good, well at least the first 12, heavn't read the others much except just a little, they are written by another guy and he changed Gotrek a bit and I didn't want to continue :P. But that is not the main point!. Reading the series was great fun! Writing was great fun took me about a week of writing a little bit at a time. Then I began reading the Nagash series,t he first book, and then I read some more of the 2nd author of the Gotrek and Felix series and wrote some more :D. I am still writing and modifying it as I go but a much slower pace now :)

Yes the noble brets is a thing that can really capture your imagination, real chivalry, men of noble spirit riding of the face the evils of the world. Living in a fair and just land.

About the gods, until I started looking into it I had no idea how many gods there were, there are like 100 of them if not more, check it out and these are just minor gods. http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Minor_Gods

 

So some of them could be merged or reduced because there are so many.

 

However, on a side note, I have been thinking about the possibility of "spirits" or some for of devine beings, that if a "spirit" receives enough worshipers it becomes a god, that could be how the farming god arose. And if a divine being losing its worshipers it becomes weaker, this could explain what happened to the Nehekaraian gods faded. 

 

Yes I also prefer warhammer fantasy over AoS, it is my belief that board of directors who made it basically never udnerstod warhammer just looked at warcraft and said lets make it more like that. Irnoic, because warcraft/Starcraft were created because royalties and fees could not be decided between a company who wanted to make a warhammer game, maybe it was blizzard I do not know that, probably was blizzard :) Or maybe they did make warcraft and it was only starcraft that was created because they could not settle on the fees of a WH40k game :)

Edited by GoldenIslandsonYouTube

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[...]

 

The gods are almost the same in the whole of the old world, Myrmidia, Taal, Morr, Verena and many more are all known in all of the old World, so is Shallya with only a slight modification of the name in Kislev. So because the gods are almost known exactly the same in all of the old world, I want to change it that they are know the same. Also if there a duplicate gods such as in being 5 different merchant gods I would like to merge them into 1 god for practical reasons. About the farming god, from my perspective it would be logical for peasant worshiping a god that would help them in their daily lives, since most people in the old world are peasants then that god would have the most worshiper, that is my reasoning.

 

[...]

 

Again thank you for your time and your thoughts, are there perhaps any other of my suggestions that you like or have an opinion on?

 

 

My main issue with what you've got going is that its getting too nice, working and functional in the setting. Its hard to run grimdark adventures in a bright and good world, and in regards to Bretonnia I think that the changes makes it almost impossible to adventure there. What I see is a land so well guarded and protected that there's no room for adventurers, because the knights are taking care of all the problems and don't engage in shenaningans with each other. Now I like your support of Bretonnia and I personally LOVE chivalry and the more I read the more complex and interesting the whole subject becomes. But there needs to be crap and corruption so that the adventurers can do adventures and room for dark forces to grow so that the adventurers actually fills a reasonable role. For this, I see a divided, corrupt and malfunctional society to be the best setting where the candles of light held by our characters can matter the most.

 

I'll like to start talking about religion in Warhammer.

 

The thing that I like with polytheism, and for that matter monotheism with a long history, is how messy it becomes.with lots of versions, different regional parts, major and minor gods and so on. I understand that not everyone likes it but I love it. So this little chaos called "gods of th Old World" is great as far as I am concerned because this is what is kind of realistic with polytheistic traditions growing up and without a revealed source of "the truth". And that it gives my variation. A Chaos cult can masquerade as a new god, or the adventurers can get into fights with a particular wicked version of one of the major gods of the Old World. The more streamlined things becomes, the less cracks I see for use by the GMs to bring variation to the table.

 

Also in regards to your farming god I think that he is way late to the party even if he is an excellent idea. As long as people have been agricultural there have been a demand for fertility gods, and possibly before that as well, and so he should have been there right from the start with the humans settling down to farm. I do agree however that a farming god would be possibly the popularly most important god in the whole Old World. Victory in war, justice and mercy are all good, but no good if you have already starved to death when it comes around to these later things.

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I won't be exhaustive just two points that are more about "how I see the current world properly reflected" thana new worl.

 

For a farming god/gods generally I prefer sticking with existing gods and using sects/aspects.  For example, Rhya is the god of farmers in the Old World mixed/confused with the Earth Mother and sometimes by regional names such as Dryath.  The "anthropological" view that gods may be amalgams of earlier gods / chaos/belief force principle.  This allows confusion and grey areas, the small village that is really a throwback of Belthani worshipping the true Earth Mother appearing to just be particularly backward peasants etc.

 

For teleportation, I agree with nerfing it.  For world-structure/trade/culture/politics/military/rpg narrative distance needs to matter.  It's a Slann-only thing only.  Maybe once High Elves etc could use waystones this way but it has become too dangerous to try it now.

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[...]

 

The gods are almost the same in the whole of the old world, Myrmidia, Taal, Morr, Verena and many more are all known in all of the old World, so is Shallya with only a slight modification of the name in Kislev. So because the gods are almost known exactly the same in all of the old world, I want to change it that they are know the same. Also if there a duplicate gods such as in being 5 different merchant gods I would like to merge them into 1 god for practical reasons. About the farming god, from my perspective it would be logical for peasant worshiping a god that would help them in their daily lives, since most people in the old world are peasants then that god would have the most worshiper, that is my reasoning.

 

[...]

 

Again thank you for your time and your thoughts, are there perhaps any other of my suggestions that you like or have an opinion on?

 

 

My main issue with what you've got going is that its getting too nice, working and functional in the setting. Its hard to run grimdark adventures in a bright and good world, and in regards to Bretonnia I think that the changes makes it almost impossible to adventure there. What I see is a land so well guarded and protected that there's no room for adventurers, because the knights are taking care of all the problems and don't engage in shenaningans with each other. Now I like your support of Bretonnia and I personally LOVE chivalry and the more I read the more complex and interesting the whole subject becomes. But there needs to be crap and corruption so that the adventurers can do adventures and room for dark forces to grow so that the adventurers actually fills a reasonable role. For this, I see a divided, corrupt and malfunctional society to be the best setting where the candles of light held by our characters can matter the most.

 

I'll like to start talking about religion in Warhammer.

 

The thing that I like with polytheism, and for that matter monotheism with a long history, is how messy it becomes.with lots of versions, different regional parts, major and minor gods and so on. I understand that not everyone likes it but I love it. So this little chaos called "gods of th Old World" is great as far as I am concerned because this is what is kind of realistic with polytheistic traditions growing up and without a revealed source of "the truth". And that it gives my variation. A Chaos cult can masquerade as a new god, or the adventurers can get into fights with a particular wicked version of one of the major gods of the Old World. The more streamlined things becomes, the less cracks I see for use by the GMs to bring variation to the table.

 

Also in regards to your farming god I think that he is way late to the party even if he is an excellent idea. As long as people have been agricultural there have been a demand for fertility gods, and possibly before that as well, and so he should have been there right from the start with the humans settling down to farm. I do agree however that a farming god would be possibly the popularly most important god in the whole Old World. Victory in war, justice and mercy are all good, but no good if you have already starved to death when it comes around to these later things.

 

 

 

The world would still have corruption and problems, but I would also have a bit more light and hope.

 

On the brets you limit your perspective, you limit your thoughts. The Bretonnians them selves would not cause a lot of problems no, however there are still beastmen in the forests, skaven under the country, orcs attacking from possibly inside and definitely from outside, dark elf raiders coming to the shores and taking away people, chaos raiders also arriving by sea and of course the occasional internal chaos corruption, you have the undead popping up now and again and of course corrupt or greedy Empire nobles attacking. So there are plenty of chances of adventure. The world has problems, but it also has hope :). The Empire in my mind would be almost or equally as corrupt and incompetent as it is now shielded by Kislev in the north and Bretonnia in the West.

 

About the gods! THE GODS! :D

 

There would still be many gods, but there would not be as many duplicate gods, currently there are maybe 100 minor gods in the old world, plus the few big ones. For me 100 seems a bit too much if they are duplicate. However I understand your thoughts about having darker and lighter versions of the same god. About the farming god, I was more into the line of thought that for a god to rise it needs worshipers and it would take time for the god to become know and powerful. Possibly starting out as some form of spirit untill it had accumlated enough power to bbecome something more. OR possibly being a full god but require time to establish a connection with the mortal world, like a tunnel being increased over time. And vice verca, if a god is not worshiper for example like the old gods of Nehekhara, they either grow weaker or their connection to the world grows weaker.

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I won't be exhaustive just two points that are more about "how I see the current world properly reflected" thana new worl.

 

For a farming god/gods generally I prefer sticking with existing gods and using sects/aspects.  For example, Rhya is the god of farmers in the Old World mixed/confused with the Earth Mother and sometimes by regional names such as Dryath.  The "anthropological" view that gods may be amalgams of earlier gods / chaos/belief force principle.  This allows confusion and grey areas, the small village that is really a throwback of Belthani worshipping the true Earth Mother appearing to just be particularly backward peasants etc.

 

For teleportation, I agree with nerfing it.  For world-structure/trade/culture/politics/military/rpg narrative distance needs to matter.  It's a Slann-only thing only.  Maybe once High Elves etc could use waystones this way but it has become too dangerous to try it now.

 

 

About Ryha, yes she does fit many of the criteria for a farming god, however I want the farming god to be more of a specialist focusing on the soil and crops animal husbandry and such. Ryha would possible me more of a fertility / motherhood/ midewivfery. Your knowledge of religion is impressive, but I of course still like my own version more than yours :P 

 

The Waystones were not used for teleportation, I think and could be wrong, it was the path ways of the old ones that were, Basically tunnels that had magic in them that allowed you to travel to other tunnels that had magic in them.

 

The teleportation rule came from my 2 lines of thought i have about fiction. 1 It can't be fantasy if there is gun powder. 2 Sci Fi can't have teleportation or time travle, sven though I am a huge Stargate fan :P. So fantasy definitely can't have teleportation since it is too powerful.

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[...]

 

The gods are almost the same in the whole of the old world, Myrmidia, Taal, Morr, Verena and many more are all known in all of the old World, so is Shallya with only a slight modification of the name in Kislev. So because the gods are almost known exactly the same in all of the old world, I want to change it that they are know the same. Also if there a duplicate gods such as in being 5 different merchant gods I would like to merge them into 1 god for practical reasons. About the farming god, from my perspective it would be logical for peasant worshiping a god that would help them in their daily lives, since most people in the old world are peasants then that god would have the most worshiper, that is my reasoning.

 

[...]

 

Again thank you for your time and your thoughts, are there perhaps any other of my suggestions that you like or have an opinion on?

 

 

My main issue with what you've got going is that its getting too nice, working and functional in the setting. Its hard to run grimdark adventures in a bright and good world, and in regards to Bretonnia I think that the changes makes it almost impossible to adventure there. What I see is a land so well guarded and protected that there's no room for adventurers, because the knights are taking care of all the problems and don't engage in shenaningans with each other. Now I like your support of Bretonnia and I personally LOVE chivalry and the more I read the more complex and interesting the whole subject becomes. But there needs to be crap and corruption so that the adventurers can do adventures and room for dark forces to grow so that the adventurers actually fills a reasonable role. For this, I see a divided, corrupt and malfunctional society to be the best setting where the candles of light held by our characters can matter the most.

 

I'll like to start talking about religion in Warhammer.

 

The thing that I like with polytheism, and for that matter monotheism with a long history, is how messy it becomes.with lots of versions, different regional parts, major and minor gods and so on. I understand that not everyone likes it but I love it. So this little chaos called "gods of th Old World" is great as far as I am concerned because this is what is kind of realistic with polytheistic traditions growing up and without a revealed source of "the truth". And that it gives my variation. A Chaos cult can masquerade as a new god, or the adventurers can get into fights with a particular wicked version of one of the major gods of the Old World. The more streamlined things becomes, the less cracks I see for use by the GMs to bring variation to the table.

 

Also in regards to your farming god I think that he is way late to the party even if he is an excellent idea. As long as people have been agricultural there have been a demand for fertility gods, and possibly before that as well, and so he should have been there right from the start with the humans settling down to farm. I do agree however that a farming god would be possibly the popularly most important god in the whole Old World. Victory in war, justice and mercy are all good, but no good if you have already starved to death when it comes around to these later things.

 

 

 

The world would still have corruption and problems, but I would also have a bit more light and hope.

 

On the brets you limit your perspective, you limit your thoughts. The Bretonnians them selves would not cause a lot of problems no, however there are still beastmen in the forests, skaven under the country, orcs attacking from possibly inside and definitely from outside, dark elf raiders coming to the shores and taking away people, chaos raiders also arriving by sea and of course the occasional internal chaos corruption, you have the undead popping up now and again and of course corrupt or greedy Empire nobles attacking. So there are plenty of chances of adventure. The world has problems, but it also has hope :). The Empire in my mind would be almost or equally as corrupt and incompetent as it is now shielded by Kislev in the north and Bretonnia in the West.

 

About the gods! THE GODS! :D

 

There would still be many gods, but there would not be as many duplicate gods, currently there are maybe 100 minor gods in the old world, plus the few big ones. For me 100 seems a bit too much if they are duplicate. However I understand your thoughts about having darker and lighter versions of the same god. About the farming god, I was more into the line of thought that for a god to rise it needs worshipers and it would take time for the god to become know and powerful. Possibly starting out as some form of spirit untill it had accumlated enough power to bbecome something more. OR possibly being a full god but require time to establish a connection with the mortal world, like a tunnel being increased over time. And vice verca, if a god is not worshiper for example like the old gods of Nehekhara, they either grow weaker or their connection to the world grows weaker.

 

 

I simply think you want to put to much hope and light in there, which will make adventuring less dark and gritty as Warhammer is at this Point, and more into potentially D&D. I like that in Warhammer, sleeping in a feather bed is a memory for life because most of the time my characters are counting their coppers and at many times have to take on half-way, or full-way, suicide missions to make ends meet or take shady jobbs to eat warm food and sleep beneath a roof for the next week. To me the lack of light and hope is one of the reasons I love Warhammer.

 

Now my group will know that I always strive to do the noble and good thing with my characters, or at least most of the time, and that Warhammer can also be a focus on the small and personal victories. Sure, in the long term the Empire may be screwed, but a group of daring adventurers armed to the teeth, can give the people of this village some 10 years of peace and joy in their lives. And so when my brave character lies dying in the gutter because his friends couldn't afford a doctor, after they all foiled a Skaven plot and saved the town, and he thinks of the shady jobbs he did for that lord or that merchant, the gambling and the drinking, he can looks back, smile and say "At least I got that one right."

 

But to return to Bretonnia, it wouldn't matter if there are Beastmen, Skaven, Orcs, Chaos raiders, Druchii or undead the issue is that there are far to little forests for the Beastmen to be a serious issues and out in the open most creatures of evil will find a charge of Bretonnian knights to be the last thing they experience. As it stands in "Knights of the Grail" I think its well enough that the king is almost nobility personified while many of the dukes are Grail Knights and so very, very chivalrous and noble. In fact I think Bretonnia as writen there is a bit to good and bright for Warhammer. There should be internal strife within Bretonnia for the way you've described you vision, Bretonnia would be virtuall immune to Chaos corruption. Sure there can be Chaos cults, but they will be discovered in a heartbeat of going outside their homes, if the chivalrous behavior of the Bretonnians don't make them actually immune to Chaos.

 

Since I'm gearing up for a Bretonnian campaign, I can throw in a history of ten years for Bretonnia in my personal version to illustrate how I imagine that Bretonnia will work. If you would so desire.

 

In regards to the gods, I think we'll just end it with saying that we disagree. I do find the metaphysic suggestion between worship and strength of a god to be interesting. :)

Edited by Gurkhal

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I simply think you want to put to much hope and light in there, which will make adventuring less dark and gritty as Warhammer is at this Point, and more into potentially D&D. I like that in Warhammer, sleeping in a feather bed is a memory for life because most of the time my characters are counting their coppers and at many times have to take on half-way, or full-way, suicide missions to make ends meet or take shady jobbs to eat warm food and sleep beneath a roof for the next week. To me the lack of light and hope is one of the reasons I love Warhammer.

 

Now my group will know that I always strive to do the noble and good thing with my characters, or at least most of the time, and that Warhammer can also be a focus on the small and personal victories. Sure, in the long term the Empire may be screwed, but a group of daring adventurers armed to the teeth, can give the people of this village some 10 years of peace and joy in their lives. And so when my brave character lies dying in the gutter because his friends couldn't afford a doctor, after they all foiled a Skaven plot and saved the town, and he thinks of the shady jobbs he did for that lord or that merchant, the gambling and the drinking, he can looks back, smile and say "At least I got that one right."

 

But to return to Bretonnia, it wouldn't matter if there are Beastmen, Skaven, Orcs, Chaos raiders, Druchii or undead the issue is that there are far to little forests for the Beastmen to be a serious issues and out in the open most creatures of evil will find a charge of Bretonnian knights to be the last thing they experience. As it stands in "Knights of the Grail" I think its well enough that the king is almost nobility personified while many of the dukes are Grail Knights and so very, very chivalrous and noble. In fact I think Bretonnia as writen there is a bit to good and bright for Warhammer. There should be internal strife within Bretonnia for the way you've described you vision, Bretonnia would be virtuall immune to Chaos corruption. Sure there can be Chaos cults, but they will be discovered in a heartbeat of going outside their homes, if the chivalrous behavior of the Bretonnians don't make them actually immune to Chaos.

 

Since I'm gearing up for a Bretonnian campaign, I can throw in a history of ten years for Bretonnia in my personal version to illustrate how I imagine that Bretonnia will work. If you would so desire.

 

In regards to the gods, I think we'll just end it with saying that we disagree. I do find the metaphysic suggestion between worship and strength of a god to be interesting. :)

 

 

I see your point of view but for me it is too dark, a person could not live in such a world, it could not exist. That is why I prefer the 5th edition lore and the first edition of warhammer roleplay and its associate books.

 

About a group saving a town for 10 years, that is still possibly possible if not more so in my version, because the world still exists. I think you might not see nuances as I do.

 

If you look at it from a mathematical perspective, let us assume just as an example there are 10 million people living in one country, let us assume that 99.9 are not trouble makers, that still leaves 10,000 trouble makers which is a lot and one can write plent of adventures around that. Now let us assume 1% are trouble makers that makes it 100,000 people who are gonna create problems, a huge massive number. 

 

For me what is important is that there somewhere is a stable place where people can live, however there are also dangerous lurking around that need to be stopped. And of course external dangerous, however if there is too much danger, people simply can not live it is not possible especially for example if one needs to do impossible things only to eat for 1 day. Then living becomes impossible, because you can not day in and day out do impossible things.

 

For me the brets in the 6th edition and on wards as I read it they are corrupt hypocrites who exploit their subjects with a 90% tax whilst they them selves live of that tax in a life of comparative luxury, plus the different standard of rules and the oppression, not allowing people to move, the inbreeding, the malnourishment, all of it is for me something that I don't want. And then of course the huge back story that the Elven god Liliath is the Lady of the Lake and using the brets a meat shield to protect the elves of Athel Loren, just really rubs me the wrong way.

 

Chose worshippers would of course have it harder in bretonnia but things would not be as locked up as you think,  a knight can not be everywhere every day, he lives in his castle and the people live in their villages. It is completely possible, in my mind that chaos worshippers could meet and over time meet more and more of their like minded people, and now and again cause problems, they couldn't like in the empire kidnap some random peasant and offer the peasant to the gods, however they could still build up their power, but slowly. However in my version of warhammer yes most people could live normal lives without having to worry about problems external or internal problems and work their lands.

 

There are some books written for the 6th edition and on wards on bretonnia, about how there are 2 languages one for the nobles one for the peasants and that the peasants language is so diverse that 2 peasants from 2 different region would find it hard to understand each other and therefore making it even harder to rise up against their oppressive overlords, and they give detail on how the bretonnian socviety works, however I do not know the name of the books, only read the info somewhere.

 

If you want to write a 10 year history of Bretonnia that would be nice to read of course, however do it in a separate thread so that this one can be about me :)

 

Yes the gods are an interesting thing to think about, how they gain power, if they gain power at all, how they contact their followers, and so on and so forth. I like my version because it explains how the previous human gods of the Nehekarian civilisation faded away. And that in my version we are in 1525 or so, so year 0 when Sigmar united the humans, the humans were mostly different tribes, not really farmers, and they worshipped different gods, then some began farming, and some still lives the old way all of the worshipping those previous gods and also Sigmar, and then more and more began to farm the land, and then we have the plague somewhere around 1100 and in my version "only" killing 30-40% instead of the current official number of 90% of the population in the Empire and then after that the farming god appearing.

Edited by GoldenIslandsonYouTube

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You've made some interesting points GoldenIsland albeit  some of them overly verbose but if you're seeking to convince everyone that your 'vision' of Warhammer is the holy grail of warhammer variations then I think your quest is already doomed to failure. 

 

As said by others it's the grim and gritty stuff that most of us enjoy about Warhammer and it's in these realms of gritty, political scheming, corruption and filth that the adventurers are most at home and in which GM's and players have most fun. Attempting to reduce (even a little) the grim and darkness of Warhammer is completely going in the wrong direction for most fans. 

 

The point though is that it doesn't matter. You've clearly invested a lot of time and effort in a vision of warhammer which you feel works best for you and your players. And that's great but it is not one that will be shared by most. And that's fine too. One mans meat is another mans poison. Or in Warhammers case probably a poisonous meat pie :) You may feel tempted to write a big long reply to this to prove how you are correct but it matters not because as long as you dig the changes you're making then it's fine. 

 

 

 

If you want to write a 10 year history of Bretonnia that would be nice to read of course, however do it in a separate thread so that this one can be about me :)

 

 

I know (or at least hope) you made this point half in jest but personally I'd be happy to read Gurkhal's version of Bretonnia in this thread if only for some balance in a thread which really does seem to be a one man show. Or perhaps we should all stop commenting and let it really be all about you :)

Edited by Noelyuk

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Seen this post on Reddit. It wasn't well received there by any stretch of the imagination. The reaction you're getting here seems to be more tolerant than the replies I've noticed you got over at reddit. I'm actually surprised to see it pop up here, I figured that the poison you were receiving would have deterred you :P

 

It's hard to take some of what you say seriously; such as when you go on regarding dwarf teeth, human teeth and halfling teeth. It seems... odd. Odd that you'd focus a lot on teeth for some reason. "Dwarfs have good teeth that do not suffer often from diseases."

 

In any case, you're free to make the changes you so desire should you ever GM your own game. But you can hardly advertise it as Warhammer as the changes you propose are radical and move away from everything that Warhammer is about. It becomes a different kettle of fish altogether, and no longer Warhammer. In fact you seem to want to take away 'War' and just have the Hammer part...

 

And you shouldn't be so surprised by the reactions you're likely to receive for taking a well established brand and then 'suggesting' that if you had the money, you'd turn it into a completely different thing that is alien to the loyal fans of the franchise. Yeah, that won't go down well...

 

My advice to you, if your serious about this; is to create your own lore, your own universe, your own sandbox. You've obviously put a lot of thought into it. Forget about Bretonnia, Kislev... Forget about the Old World and build your own world from scratch, cause the changes you suggest are far too radical to fit into the established lore. You simply can't erase it and plop your own down, it will not mix well.

 

There is in fact nothing wrong with changing lore to suit your own needs, assuming you were running a game. I for example GM a regular 2nd edition roleplay game set in Warhammer, and I've made changes to the lore that I feel were/are appropriate. But that's a whole different ballgame as opposed to what your suggesting. If I was to implement your changes into my game, I'd have a full blown rebellion! My players come to me to play Warhammer, and not some other game that has none of the grit, dirt and grime that the Warhammer universe is known for.

 

So as I said; I suggest you create your own lore and call it something other than Warhammer, because what you've suggested is not, by any stretch of the imagination, Warhammer.

 

And I can say the same thing for Age of Sigmar :lol:

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I know (or at least hope) you made this point half in jest but personally I'd be happy to read Gurkhal's version of Bretonnia in this thread if only for some balance in a thread which really does seem to be a one man show. Or perhaps we should all stop commenting and let it really be all about you :)

 

And read you, and the rest, shall!

 

And note that I have also made some larger changes to the setting, and taken inspiration from both Asoiaf and Crusader Kings 2, like how King Louren is dead and Mallobaude (spelling?) is not the same bad guy as he is presented as in "Barony of the Damned" and so on. All for creating a Bretonnia with fits with the campaign and story I've planned out, and by talking with my players about the changes I want to make so far I think we're all onboard about it.

 

Also note the boy king of Bretonnia would have been about 2 when the host returned from the Storm of Chaos.

 

Bretonnian history
 
Year 1
 
After the Bretonnians have returned from the Empire and the Storm of Chaso, Duke Hagen of Gisoreux, is made Steward of the Realm and responsible for raising the boy king for his future office. But through a lack of diplomacy the duke has within the year insulted, provoced or outright attacked a majority of the other dukes and these rise against him and depose him.
 
Year 2
A new Steward of the Realm is chosen but revelaed as a puppet for an ambitious Lamia vampire and the two are killed.
 
Year 2-3
 
A council of Grail Knights is created to ensure that the realm is governed well and the king given a chivalrous upbringing. But this resulted in Grail Knights coming and going, a lack of continuation in every police and a constant stream of directives from the capital which were of great chivalric spirit, but flied in the face of actual realities. In the end the council of Grail Knights was dissolved, to the relief of the Grail Knights, and the dukes took over.
 
Year 3-5
 
The dukes found a new council to rule the realm but within half a year Bretonnia is in full blown civil war over their differences, and after the first war, a new war breaks out between the winners in the first war when these can't get together on how to rule after their victory. In the end two dukes stand triumphant, while the rest are gathering against them. The two final winners summons all the dukes to a council rather than see how this development will end.
 
Year 6
 
The year is dominated by a war against a great Greenskin horde coming down from the Mountains and here Mallobaude truely makes a name for himself when he slays the Orc leader in single combat. Many who are unhappy about the current situation starts to look with admiration on Malloubade as for what kind of leadership Bretonnia should have, even if Mallobaude is only the late king Louen I's bastard son.
 
Year 7
 
The dukes decides to avoid earlier problems by putting a minor lord as Steward of the Realm in the belief that he will be timid and the dukes won't have to worry about the other dukes getting to much influence at court and over the young king. But it is shown that the Steward of the Realm is really timid, but his uncle is not. This uncle arranges for great estates to fall into his, his family's and his friends' hands. The final straw, or balk of steel, comes when the uncle betrothes his own daughter wth the young king. A number of dukes rise in rebellion and make short work of the Steward of the Realm, his uncle and their supporters. The victorious dukes makes a new council.
 
Year 8
 
Most of the dukes who did not take part in putting down the last Steward of the Realm rise in rebellion over the insult of not being given a place in this new council. After bitter fighting the rebels are defeated and the winners starts to make themselves at home at the centre of power. They start to arrange for their families continuing their dominance for at least Another generation. its more and more clear that the boy king is raised to be a puppet and access to him is strictly controlled.
 
Year 9-10
 
While more and more feel despair over a puppet for a king and while the powers at court grows ever more greedy and demanding against everyone not part of their circle of favorites even as a rift between these dukes grows, Mallobaudes fame grows with battles, adventures and tourneys where his displays of chivalry and prowess marks him out. Two parties are growing, the court party focused on controlling the young king as a puppet, and the sword party which would see Mallobaude as a new king, bastard or not. Everyone understands that these two parties will come to blow sooner or later and that after that, there might be Peace, or further strife.

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You've made some interesting points GoldenIsland albeit  some of them overly verbose but if you're seeking to convince everyone that your 'vision' of Warhammer is the holy grail of warhammer variations then I think your quest is already doomed to failure. 

 

As said by others it's the grim and gritty stuff that most of us enjoy about Warhammer and it's in these realms of gritty, political scheming, corruption and filth that the adventurers are most at home and in which GM's and players have most fun. Attempting to reduce (even a little) the grim and darkness of Warhammer is completely going in the wrong direction for most fans. 

 

The point though is that it doesn't matter. You've clearly invested a lot of time and effort in a vision of warhammer which you feel works best for you and your players. And that's great but it is not one that will be shared by most. And that's fine too. One mans meat is another mans poison. Or in Warhammers case probably a poisonous meat pie :) You may feel tempted to write a big long reply to this to prove how you are correct but it matters not because as long as you dig the changes you're making then it's fine. 

 

 

 

If you want to write a 10 year history of Bretonnia that would be nice to read of course, however do it in a separate thread so that this one can be about me :)

 

 

I know (or at least hope) you made this point half in jest but personally I'd be happy to read Gurkhal's version of Bretonnia in this thread if only for some balance in a thread which really does seem to be a one man show. Or perhaps we should all stop commenting and let it really be all about you :)

 

 

I see your points completely and they are well expressed, and here some short replies

 

It is my belief that after the 5th generation by making the game a bit darker, warhammer lost fans and stopped gaining fans as fast and then it went negative for every one fan it gained it lost more fans.

 

About Gurkhals post, i did not mean i wanted no replies just that there is a chance that the thread will balloon to include many different subjects at once, but of course it might just been my vivid imagination :) Also that in a separate thread he might get more feedback on his ideas because it would have a title about his ideas and therefore more visible than if placed inside another thread. Anyway I am sure it will all work out :)

Edited by GoldenIslandsonYouTube

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Seen this post on Reddit. It wasn't well received there by any stretch of the imagination. The reaction you're getting here seems to be more tolerant than the replies I've noticed you got over at reddit. I'm actually surprised to see it pop up here, I figured that the poison you were receiving would have deterred you :P

 

It's hard to take some of what you say seriously; such as when you go on regarding dwarf teeth, human teeth and halfling teeth. It seems... odd. Odd that you'd focus a lot on teeth for some reason. "Dwarfs have good teeth that do not suffer often from diseases."

 

In any case, you're free to make the changes you so desire should you ever GM your own game. But you can hardly advertise it as Warhammer as the changes you propose are radical and move away from everything that Warhammer is about. It becomes a different kettle of fish altogether, and no longer Warhammer. In fact you seem to want to take away 'War' and just have the Hammer part...

 

And you shouldn't be so surprised by the reactions you're likely to receive for taking a well established brand and then 'suggesting' that if you had the money, you'd turn it into a completely different thing that is alien to the loyal fans of the franchise. Yeah, that won't go down well...

 

My advice to you, if your serious about this; is to create your own lore, your own universe, your own sandbox. You've obviously put a lot of thought into it. Forget about Bretonnia, Kislev... Forget about the Old World and build your own world from scratch, cause the changes you suggest are far too radical to fit into the established lore. You simply can't erase it and plop your own down, it will not mix well.

 

There is in fact nothing wrong with changing lore to suit your own needs, assuming you were running a game. I for example GM a regular 2nd edition roleplay game set in Warhammer, and I've made changes to the lore that I feel were/are appropriate. But that's a whole different ballgame as opposed to what your suggesting. If I was to implement your changes into my game, I'd have a full blown rebellion! My players come to me to play Warhammer, and not some other game that has none of the grit, dirt and grime that the Warhammer universe is known for.

 

So as I said; I suggest you create your own lore and call it something other than Warhammer, because what you've suggested is not, by any stretch of the imagination, Warhammer.

 

And I can say the same thing for Age of Sigmar :lol:

 

 

I understand where you are coming from but of course I do not agree ;)

 

About the teeth, It is from the Gotrek and Felix series of books which is great

 

In it it is often stated that dwarfs live longer and are much healthier than humans. 

 

However and this is something very well made and shows thoughtfulness went into William King's writing, the author of the first Gotrek and Felix series, is that in the first book Gotrek has lost 1 tooth, in the second 3 teeth and in each edition after that more and more teeth are gone, and those that are left many of them are black and rotting.

 

However it makes no sense if dwarfs are healthier than humans then of course it should include their mouths as well. And if the old ones made the dwarfs to live for many 100s of years if not 1000s it would not make sense to have their teeth falling out after a mere 100 years or less. Plus in the specific case of Gotrek, his axe heals him and alters him, then of course it should include his mouth as well.

 

It is interesting that some people think my changes so radical, because for me it is just a polish of the 5th edition lore and the first edition of warhammer roleplay, as I see it my version is very close to the middle 1990s of warhammer. But of course others see it different.

 

Also as I have written I do not believe the current 6th edition of warhammer lore and forward could exist, because those who happily oppress would of course turn to chaos because it is in their nature, those who are oppressed would also turn to chaos to strike back at their oppressors. Thereby creating, if any survived, humans who were not oppressive and "good" because the rest had turned to chaos and the "good have turned to the old world gods for protection and these "good" people would establish a different system of government.

 

As I have said, this is how I would modify warhammer ;)

Edited by GoldenIslandsonYouTube

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I know (or at least hope) you made this point half in jest but personally I'd be happy to read Gurkhal's version of Bretonnia in this thread if only for some balance in a thread which really does seem to be a one man show. Or perhaps we should all stop commenting and let it really be all about you :)

 

And read you, and the rest, shall!

 

And note that I have also made some larger changes to the setting, and taken inspiration from both Asoiaf and Crusader Kings 2, like how King Louren is dead and Mallobaude (spelling?) is not the same bad guy as he is presented as in "Barony of the Damned" and so on. All for creating a Bretonnia with fits with the campaign and story I've planned out, and by talking with my players about the changes I want to make so far I think we're all onboard about it.

 

Also note the boy king of Bretonnia would have been about 2 when the host returned from the Storm of Chaos.

 

Bretonnian history
 
Year 1
 
After the Bretonnians have returned from the Empire and the Storm of Chaso, Duke Hagen of Gisoreux, is made Steward of the Realm and responsible for raising the boy king for his future office. But through a lack of diplomacy the duke has within the year insulted, provoced or outright attacked a majority of the other dukes and these rise against him and depose him.
 
Year 2
A new Steward of the Realm is chosen but revelaed as a puppet for an ambitious Lamia vampire and the two are killed.
 
Year 2-3
 
A council of Grail Knights is created to ensure that the realm is governed well and the king given a chivalrous upbringing. But this resulted in Grail Knights coming and going, a lack of continuation in every police and a constant stream of directives from the capital which were of great chivalric spirit, but flied in the face of actual realities. In the end the council of Grail Knights was dissolved, to the relief of the Grail Knights, and the dukes took over.
 
Year 3-5
 
The dukes found a new council to rule the realm but within half a year Bretonnia is in full blown civil war over their differences, and after the first war, a new war breaks out between the winners in the first war when these can't get together on how to rule after their victory. In the end two dukes stand triumphant, while the rest are gathering against them. The two final winners summons all the dukes to a council rather than see how this development will end.
 
Year 6
 
The year is dominated by a war against a great Greenskin horde coming down from the Mountains and here Mallobaude truely makes a name for himself when he slays the Orc leader in single combat. Many who are unhappy about the current situation starts to look with admiration on Malloubade as for what kind of leadership Bretonnia should have, even if Mallobaude is only the late king Louen I's bastard son.
 
Year 7
 
The dukes decides to avoid earlier problems by putting a minor lord as Steward of the Realm in the belief that he will be timid and the dukes won't have to worry about the other dukes getting to much influence at court and over the young king. But it is shown that the Steward of the Realm is really timid, but his uncle is not. This uncle arranges for great estates to fall into his, his family's and his friends' hands. The final straw, or balk of steel, comes when the uncle betrothes his own daughter wth the young king. A number of dukes rise in rebellion and make short work of the Steward of the Realm, his uncle and their supporters. The victorious dukes makes a new council.
 
Year 8
 
Most of the dukes who did not take part in putting down the last Steward of the Realm rise in rebellion over the insult of not being given a place in this new council. After bitter fighting the rebels are defeated and the winners starts to make themselves at home at the centre of power. They start to arrange for their families continuing their dominance for at least Another generation. its more and more clear that the boy king is raised to be a puppet and access to him is strictly controlled.
 
Year 9-10
 
While more and more feel despair over a puppet for a king and while the powers at court grows ever more greedy and demanding against everyone not part of their circle of favorites even as a rift between these dukes grows, Mallobaudes fame grows with battles, adventures and tourneys where his displays of chivalry and prowess marks him out. Two parties are growing, the court party focused on controlling the young king as a puppet, and the sword party which would see Mallobaude as a new king, bastard or not. Everyone understands that these two parties will come to blow sooner or later and that after that, there might be Peace, or further strife.

 

 

I like it, but have some questions

 

Is the lady of the lake still the elven god Lileath who uses the bretonnians as meat shields?

 

Do the peasants still live very oppressive lives as described in the official lore?

 

Of the different sides do any treat the peasants better than the other side?

 

What are the positions on magic do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on gunpowder and technology do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the Wood Elves, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the High Elves, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the Dwarfs, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the the Empire, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the Estalia, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

Edited by GoldenIslandsonYouTube

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I know (or at least hope) you made this point half in jest but personally I'd be happy to read Gurkhal's version of Bretonnia in this thread if only for some balance in a thread which really does seem to be a one man show. Or perhaps we should all stop commenting and let it really be all about you :)

 

And read you, and the rest, shall!

 

And note that I have also made some larger changes to the setting, and taken inspiration from both Asoiaf and Crusader Kings 2, like how King Louren is dead and Mallobaude (spelling?) is not the same bad guy as he is presented as in "Barony of the Damned" and so on. All for creating a Bretonnia with fits with the campaign and story I've planned out, and by talking with my players about the changes I want to make so far I think we're all onboard about it.

 

Also note the boy king of Bretonnia would have been about 2 when the host returned from the Storm of Chaos.

 

Bretonnian history
 
Year 1
 
After the Bretonnians have returned from the Empire and the Storm of Chaso, Duke Hagen of Gisoreux, is made Steward of the Realm and responsible for raising the boy king for his future office. But through a lack of diplomacy the duke has within the year insulted, provoced or outright attacked a majority of the other dukes and these rise against him and depose him.
 
Year 2
A new Steward of the Realm is chosen but revelaed as a puppet for an ambitious Lamia vampire and the two are killed.
 
Year 2-3
 
A council of Grail Knights is created to ensure that the realm is governed well and the king given a chivalrous upbringing. But this resulted in Grail Knights coming and going, a lack of continuation in every police and a constant stream of directives from the capital which were of great chivalric spirit, but flied in the face of actual realities. In the end the council of Grail Knights was dissolved, to the relief of the Grail Knights, and the dukes took over.
 
Year 3-5
 
The dukes found a new council to rule the realm but within half a year Bretonnia is in full blown civil war over their differences, and after the first war, a new war breaks out between the winners in the first war when these can't get together on how to rule after their victory. In the end two dukes stand triumphant, while the rest are gathering against them. The two final winners summons all the dukes to a council rather than see how this development will end.
 
Year 6
 
The year is dominated by a war against a great Greenskin horde coming down from the Mountains and here Mallobaude truely makes a name for himself when he slays the Orc leader in single combat. Many who are unhappy about the current situation starts to look with admiration on Malloubade as for what kind of leadership Bretonnia should have, even if Mallobaude is only the late king Louen I's bastard son.
 
Year 7
 
The dukes decides to avoid earlier problems by putting a minor lord as Steward of the Realm in the belief that he will be timid and the dukes won't have to worry about the other dukes getting to much influence at court and over the young king. But it is shown that the Steward of the Realm is really timid, but his uncle is not. This uncle arranges for great estates to fall into his, his family's and his friends' hands. The final straw, or balk of steel, comes when the uncle betrothes his own daughter wth the young king. A number of dukes rise in rebellion and make short work of the Steward of the Realm, his uncle and their supporters. The victorious dukes makes a new council.
 
Year 8
 
Most of the dukes who did not take part in putting down the last Steward of the Realm rise in rebellion over the insult of not being given a place in this new council. After bitter fighting the rebels are defeated and the winners starts to make themselves at home at the centre of power. They start to arrange for their families continuing their dominance for at least Another generation. its more and more clear that the boy king is raised to be a puppet and access to him is strictly controlled.
 
Year 9-10
 
While more and more feel despair over a puppet for a king and while the powers at court grows ever more greedy and demanding against everyone not part of their circle of favorites even as a rift between these dukes grows, Mallobaudes fame grows with battles, adventures and tourneys where his displays of chivalry and prowess marks him out. Two parties are growing, the court party focused on controlling the young king as a puppet, and the sword party which would see Mallobaude as a new king, bastard or not. Everyone understands that these two parties will come to blow sooner or later and that after that, there might be Peace, or further strife.

 

 

I like it, but have some questions

 

Is the lady of the lake still the elven god Lileath who uses the bretonnians as meat shields?

 

Do the peasants still live very oppressive lives as described in the official lore?

 

Of the different sides do any treat the peasants better than the other side?

 

What are the positions on magic do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on gunpowder and technology do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the Wood Elves, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the High Elves, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the Dwarfs, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the the Empire, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

What are the positions on the Estalia, such as trade, alliances, posture, etc do the different sides hold, the same as the current bretonnian or different?

 

 

I'm glad you liked it. :)

 

In regards to the Lady of the Lake I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm thinking of it either being Wood Elf shenanigans, an actual goddess/spirit - could be one who is otherwise forgotten, an aspect of

another goddess, something else or different things. If its different things then it would be many different factions trying to get a piece of the "Lady of the Lake" business going on. So essentially it could be a actual goddess that showed herself to Gilles and his companions, the Asrai have figured out that they can use this religion to manipulate the Bretonnians without them having some kind of tabs on the goddess herself and so on. I haven't really decided to for sure how I intend to run this and how prominent damsels and the Lady will be in the center of the campaign.

 

Yes, in general peasants are very, very oppressed. An example would be this.

 

"Noble X travels through Noble Y's land. At an inn a peasant laughs so loud that Noble X is bothered and so tells his men-at-arms to knock out the peasant's teeth so that he will stop laughing. A fight ensures when a peasant urges the others to fights and not just take it. In the end one of Noble X's men-at-arms and four peasants are dead on the floor, with a couple more bleeding. The result of this is that Noble Y forbidds Noble X to enter his lands and demands compansation for the peasants killed, the inn keeper is given crippling fine for the sake of owning the location where the fight broke out and the peasant who urged the others to fight is hanged and his family is thrown off Noble Y's lands."

 

No side systematically treats the peasants better than the other. It comes down to individual nobles and often individual peasants. A noble might think that this peasant's grandfather saved my father's life during a skirmish with some Greenskins, so now I'll give him a more favorable treatment. Or this peasants (also known as a merchant) provides the money so that I can live a noble lifestyle despite the wasteland that is my fief. Or this inn keeper has a really good stew and is all polite to me so whenver I visit I give maybe twice or thrice more than the actual price for lodgings and food for me and my men. That kind of stuff.

 

Magic is the same as usual. The damsels wields the magic and magicians from outside Bretonnia will do well to watch themselves very, very closely when in the country.

 

No gunpowder in Bretonnia. Using or even carrying a gunpowder weapon is a sign of either dishonor or rebellious activites or intentions that will likely get you into trouble.

 

Foreign diplomacy is as current except that both the Empire and also Estalia took a serious beating, far worse in the case of the empire, than in the canon Storm of Chaos, so the Empire still haven't recovered or re-populated much of the northern parts of the country. 

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