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Drasnighta

Article Predictions. Mostly General Discussion. But there's definately some Predictions scattered throughout.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, daggertx said:

Maybe they post/read/comment at work when they can't play?

To be honest: I’m just more disappointed and randomly flicked at the admittance that one of the loudest detractors and cynics (my personal opinion in what I read, by no means am I an official scaling resource on the matter) on the game here doesn’t even play because they don’t have a box set...

... I stomach complaints from players easier, because they’re at least borne of direct issue...

Edited by Drasnighta

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

 

 

Your sarcasm is noted.

it's my default mode most of the time, always meant in jest. 

 

On a serious note- Do you dispute that rule wise, the game is in at least a fair place?

Do you dispute there are at least options of ships and builds to play?

Design Wise, Replayability wise, that’s what a game needs to be continued to be played...  So, intellectually, I don’t understand why that is a reason to “jump ship”, particularity en masse.

This conversation has been had a million times before. THE GAME IS IN GREAT SHAPE, THEY'VE DONE AN AMAZING JOB WITH IT. The issue is they aren't supporting that work. Imagine a musician that makes fantastic music but then never produces a single album or a follow up. 

Having an influx of new things is good, and desirable, but not “essential”...  So I feel like there was sone other reason, even if it was personally but known to them — heck, advertisement of something else and peer pressure would totally count...

Battlefleet Gothic is a great game with a solid set of rules, no one plays BFG anymore (InB4 "But I have a cousin that plays at \insert random gaming place/ every tuesday with his best bud, they've seen at least one other person since starting in 2010" I'm going to need more than your cousin and that one guy at a random store somewhere) . Yes we can still play the game without new releases, I think you can also recognize that a community will evaporate without regular releases and shops will, and have, stop carrying that product as the community evaporates. 


I agree the game is in a good state, I've said that several times. That solid quality won't maintain an audience w/out new releases. Someone compared this game to chess in one of the other posts either here or another thread, this game isn't chess and it's crazy to think it's on the same level of popularity. W/out new releases the games community will bleed off overtime and that's concerning for anyone that enjoys the game and wants to see it do well. 

I'm glad your turnout was solid, I have no idea why the "local" ones had issues (i say local, closest was 4 hours away). 

Dras, I like ya, you seem like good people, I'm never trying to be a **** beyond a playful poke. 

Edited by dominosfleet

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29 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

To be honest: I’m just more disappointed and randomly flicked at the admittance that one of the loudest detractors and cynics (my personal opinion in what I read, by no means am I an official scaling resource on the matter) on the game here doesn’t even play because they don’t have a box set...

... I stomach complaints from players easier, because they’re at least borne of direct issue...

who dat? I own 3, 1 from getting started and 2 from barnes and nobles purge. 

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49 minutes ago, daggertx said:

Maybe they post/read/comment at work when they can't play?

Communities don’t NEED releases. It makes things god-awful loads easier, but it’s not needed when managed... at least in my experiences over games ... heck, I’m watching over a Gorkamorka leageobeing plated up here 

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12 hours ago, dominosfleet said:

Imagine a musician that makes fantastic music but then never produces a single album or a follow up. 

I feel like being a Brand New fan has prepared me for Armada... 9 years between their latest albums... 

worth it though.

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1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I feel like being a Brand New fan has prepared me for Armada... 9 years between their latest albums... 

worth it though.

(To the Beastie Boys):

Fry: Wow. I love you guys. Back in the 20th century, I had all five of your albums.
Ad-Rock: That was a thousand years ago. Now we got seven.
Fry: Cool. Can I borrow the new ones? And a couple of blank tapes?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Communities don’t NEED releases.


I don't think anyone would contest this.  I was the commissioner of a Blood Bowl League that ran for five years at a time when the game was dead and GW hadn't yet revived their Specialist Games brand. Two important factors, though: the vast majority of our "coaches" had either never played BB or hadn't played BB in years (e.g. three editions ago), so for almost all of us it was a brand new game we were learning together and figuring out.  Blood Bowl also has the benefit of having 22 Teams, many of which are substantially unique in their play-style and feel.  Most importantly, Blood Bowl is the sort of game that has linear development across time as your players progress, die, rack up injuries, etc as you vie for a spot in play-offs and the shot at the trophy.  So your team is never the same between games, and you feel like you are developing something.  Even then, after a couple season we started hemorraghing players, and after our tenth season we were just down to a few of us die hards and had to pull the plug.  Across our many seasons, we only accrued two new players, with all of the rest having joined us in that very first season.  It's the sort of thing where anyone with interest in the game jumped right in, and coaxing in new players beyond that was almost impossible... no matter how many banners, fliers, and events we hosted at our stores.

"Dead" games have expiration dates.  They can be periodically revived by a local group, but players inevitably tire of them and coaxing new players at a sufficient rate to replace the waning regulars is impossible (or, at least, in 20 years of hobby gaming I've never seen it yet done).

It's also worth nothing that Blood Bowl, for instance, had a lot going for it that Armada does not:  Blood Bowl had 22 Teams, Armada only has 2.  When we launched our league, it was basically an exciting new unsolved game for all of us to learn together, so it was basically a new and totally foreign game to explore.  Current armada players have been playing and solving Armada for nearly five years already.  Finally, Blood Bowl has a excellent set of league rules that allow for team progression and development and playing for a meaningful prize at the end of the season.  The closest thing Armada has is CC, and frankly while I've passionately run and cheer-leadered for multiple local CC events, it's a terrible campaign format.  Setting aside the innate imbalances of the CC, fleet progression is just buying a few upgrades and that cap is reached quickly, and its rare to ever see a ship or squadron actually eliminated, and when it does happen it's a fleet wipe and the player rolls up another fleet that has no chance at competing.  Blood Bowl, for instance, had a pretty great set of "inducements" that allowed underdog teams to have a better chance against higher-rated opponents, to make the encounter more interesting and engaging for both coaches.  In CC, you just seals getting clubbed as a formality until one team hits 10 or quits.


What I'm saying is that you are right.  Die hards can keep playing Armada until the world ends during our ecological cataclysm over the next few decades.  Small groups of friends who have never played the game may grab a cheap collection on the secondary market and have a bit of fun with it for awhile.  The game itself will always be played and always be playable (if people can find the stuff for it).  But I don't see a nation-wide or world-wide community continually going strong for indefinite years to come.  I mean, look at something like the Star Wars CCG (Decipher) or the Star Wars Miniatures (WotC) game.  You can still find communities playing those games at Gencon every year.  But I'd offer two caveats: the events are only like twenty people, and who know how oftens they play outside their annual Gencon meeting AND both of those games still have releases to keep it fresh, but they are unofficial releases put out by the player community.  If player communities weren't putting out virtual sets, how many people would still be playing?  Would a Gencon event happen? 

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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14 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Communities don’t NEED releases.

Stores do.  Never underestimate the power of a FLGS owner/employee over the playerbase.  Their interest lies towards what will make their store money.

Games that have a fixed cost (board games), or a predicable collection cap (I put FFG minis/LCG games in the category.), don't keep the doors open unless you have engagement levels at the peak of xwing.  At that point, there was more content out than your average player was going to be able to consume.  Similar to a traditional mini's game or CCG.

I believe a while back we discussed the economy of a store supporting Armada in 2018.  The numbers, even with optimistic tournament attendance, milking the kits, 200 point fleets for 3 hour tournaments, etc.. Came out to a pitiful number.  Are stores going to start throwing Armada players out?  probably not.  It will however, eventually, be kept under control like RPGs, obsolete games, and other activities that take up tons of space and generate minimal income.

 

If your FLGS is willing to support a system that won't make any money, more power to them.  Dollars to Doughnuts though, stores doing their 2018 accounting are going to have to seriously consider the viability of Armada.

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9 minutes ago, AdmiralYor said:

Dollars to Doughnuts though, stores doing their 2018 accounting are going to have to seriously consider the viability of Armada.

This does happen.

Thankfully 2018 as a whole was pretty good for Armada locally. We picked up 3 new people, 2 of which are regular attendees to weekly meets and tournaments. I look forward to running demos again once the SSD drops. We've had 2 or 3 small groups of watchers over the last 3 weeks as we've played 800 point and 400 point matches... I've offered to a run a demo for all of them,  so I have a good feeling that 2019 will be a good year for us locally too. 


 

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2 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

This does happen.

Thankfully 2018 as a whole was pretty good for Armada locally. We picked up 3 new people, 2 of which are regular attendees to weekly meets and tournaments. I look forward to running demos again once the SSD drops. We've had 2 or 3 small groups of watchers over the last 3 weeks as we've played 800 point and 400 point matches... I've offered to a run a demo for all of them,  so I have a good feeling that 2019 will be a good year for us locally too. 


 

Anecdotal evidence at best.

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Besides - as has been shown and prices before, even without incidental purchases, Tournament Kits themselves have a GREAT profit margin potential for a store...  Not exactly M:TG levels of worthy, but noting Miniature is...  but again, actively managed, it can be sufficient.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, emsgoof said:

Anecdotal evidence at best.

Which is why I made sure to specify that this was occurring locally.  ;D

(I know the Cleveland groups and Columbus groups have been awfully quiet over the last 6 months, I'm not sure how often they meet). 


In terms of overall health, locally, 2018 was one of our better years. I've been the organizer for the Streetsboro OH group since the group founder moved back to California just after wave 5 dropped in 2016. We had 6 regulars at that point. Over the winter and spring until the release of wave 6 our group dropped to 3 weekly attendees. Wave 6 picked up 5 people in our local group, 2 of which still attend regularly. This was an interesting time, we often had 4 full tables going. By wave 7 we dropped a few people to life circumstances outside the game itself, jobs, marriage, moving, ect... but managed to pick a couple of new players too. As things currently stand, even if all the people aren't playing Armada, our weekly group still meets and usually has 5 or 6 people. All of them still have their Armada stuff and most still crack it out from time to time. The others are just waiting for FFG to give them a reason to play. 

Anecdotal? Yup. 

But that's the scope of things where I'm at. 

Edited by Darth Sanguis

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3 hours ago, AdmiralYor said:

Stores do.  Never underestimate the power of a FLGS owner/employee over the playerbase.  Their interest lies towards what will make their store money.

Games that have a fixed cost (board games), or a predicable collection cap (I put FFG minis/LCG games in the category.), don't keep the doors open unless you have engagement levels at the peak of xwing.  At that point, there was more content out than your average player was going to be able to consume.  Similar to a traditional mini's game or CCG.

I believe a while back we discussed the economy of a store supporting Armada in 2018.  The numbers, even with optimistic tournament attendance, milking the kits, 200 point fleets for 3 hour tournaments, etc.. Came out to a pitiful number.  Are stores going to start throwing Armada players out?  probably not.  It will however, eventually, be kept under control like RPGs, obsolete games, and other activities that take up tons of space and generate minimal income.

 

If your FLGS is willing to support a system that won't make any money, more power to them.  Dollars to Doughnuts though, stores doing their 2018 accounting are going to have to seriously consider the viability of Armada.

Team Covenant dropped Armada without warning from league play, likely for similar reasons.

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23 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I don’t believe That’s a reason to stop playing - it’s an excuse, for sure...

But there must have been some other issue for them, even if they don’t readily understand it.

 

You May want support, but again, personally, I don’t feel you need it...  

It may not be the direct reason, but if you think it doesn't factor into the equation, you're crazy.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see any massive flaw in the game as it stands.  I'm happy with it as it is...but I would also like more content.  My collection would still see use if the game were canceled tomorrow, but that doesn't mean I don't want to expand it with new stuff.  In a perfect world, FFG wouldn't need to do anything, and people would happily play forever without any conflict...but that's not realistic.  Heck, it flies in the face of basic human psychology.  

I've said it before, but there are TONS of reasons that people stop playing.  Changing schedules, new job, relationships, family issues, budgetary issues, moving, etc, etc...the list goes on.  But player bases tend to be fragile.  1 major player that attends every event stops showing up, and then 1 or 2 of his friends that showed up occasionally stop coming as their friend no longer shows up, now the player population just dropped by 3 which is dang near a mortal blow to most armada player groups in this country I'd wager.

Is that 1 person quitting the downfall of armada?  Not directly, but since there are stock shortages, no new products, no advertisements, lack of news/support from FFG, rumors about armada dying or being canceled, etc, etc... it makes it harder for new blood to fill the vacancies from that 1 or 2 people that quit for whatever reason.  Lack of new products means reduced sales for venues, old stock taking up space and not moving as there are no new customers, and more and more vendors decide to turn that shelf space over to something that is selling.  This makes it even harder to attract new blood.

You see, the problem isn't that the game needs new product from a gameplay element.  The problem is that the game needs new product from a business and marketing standpoint to financially survive.

People quit games for all kinds of reasons.  I doubt many people are honestly quitting Armada because of no new waves of stuff in over a year.  But that lack of new product and lack of acknowledgement from FFG that the game exists is making it **** tough to attract new customers to fill the space left behind by the ones quitting.

The vast majority of Magic the Gathering players have quit playing...but because there is still new content, news, advertising, etc, the game still attracts new players which keeps the game alive.

FFG is doing nothing to shore up player numbers that are being lost through natural attrition.

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28 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

But that lack of new product and lack of acknowledgement from FFG that the game exists is making it **** tough to attract new customers to fill the space left behind by the ones quitting.

The vast majority of Magic the Gathering players have quit playing...but because there is still new content, news, advertising, etc, the game still attracts new players which keeps the game alive.

I don't get this. For a new player, our old content is new. So why do we need new content specifically to attract new players? I get better advertisement, but FFG does do that anyway, so new content wouldn't change that. 

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On 3/4/2019 at 4:59 PM, dominosfleet said:

My bad Dras, clearly the 20ish people playing semi regularly in the area 2 years ago quit for totally different reasons, my mistake. It didn't take me 2 weeks just to gather 6 people for a CC when before I'd have had to turn people down or help the extras form another group because we had so many people before. 

to further that, you're 100% right, the game is doing great, fully supported, and nothing is going poorly whatsoever, in fact my understanding is that at the last event punch and pie was served. 

Thank you for clearing that up Dras. Glad you found time to get games in. |

Serious question: how were regional numbers this year? I only made it to one of the 3 I was planning on attending this year but I still paid attention to the numbers of the other 2. They were down a bit from what I remember, the one i attended was at game cafe and I believe they were just over 20 people, down from the 28 we had the previous year. I didn't make it to family time games but I saw on their facebook page that they had 20 this year,@Snipafist last year there were just shy of 40 right? there was concern it would be a 2 day event. Geekery had 10 , down from the 16 of last year. Was that an trend at the other regionals? Weather was rough this year so I could see it having an impact on attendance this year. 

There were actually an odd number of people at the Geekery Regional in Kansas. I think we had 13 or 15? I know because it gave me an excuse to use my bye.  It is too bad you missed out on 2/3 events though. I've always enjoyed our games.  Since there was one at both Game Cafe and The Geekery this year I didn't drive up to the regional in Nebraska this year.  So some of it could be chalked up to shifting locations. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

There were actually an odd number of people at the Geekery Regional in Kansas. I think we had 13 or 15? I know because it gave me an excuse to use my bye.  It is too bad you missed out on 2/3 events though. I've always enjoyed our games.  Since there was one at both Game Cafe and The Geekery this year I didn't drive up to the regional in Nebraska this year.  So some of it could be chalked up to shifting locations. 

 

 

My bad, for some reason I thought I saw 10 somewhere. 


I'm honestly running a bit on empty for the game. I don't have a good reason for not going aside from "mehhhhh" for that one. The week of family time games tournament it had snowed pretty badly that and i was concerned the roads would be trash. I do really enjoy the game but the stl scene falling apart is weighing on me. Mild hope it picks back up when the SSD is released but it's just 1 ship. /shrug, we'll see. 

Edited by dominosfleet

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On 3/4/2019 at 5:47 PM, The Jabbawookie said:

Good point.

 

On behalf of your supervisor/boss: You're... complaining about plastic spaceships on an online forum?

Maybe I am the boss. Or my job as a DBA does not require me to click keys for 8 hour straight, and I also have 4 monitors. Keep trying.

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2 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I don't get this. For a new player, our old content is new. So why do we need new content specifically to attract new players? I get better advertisement, but FFG does do that anyway, so new content wouldn't change that. 

They don't want to buy in if the game is fixing to be cancelled. its that simple.

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3 minutes ago, daggertx said:

Maybe I am the boss. Or my job as a DBA does not require me to click keys for 8 hour straight, and I also have 4 monitors. Keep trying.

Just an attempt at humor, but here's my serious response.  This game is what it is.  Unlike balance complaints (which are fairly scarce now) a desire for more frequent new content and better communication is something we pretty much all agree on.  So with that in mind, there are

A.  People who focus on what we don't have, taking just about every opportunity to have the same conversations in a heavily-trafficked thread without new information to facilitate discussion.  This is exasperating to people who would rather talk about something else, grating on those of us who are just plain sick of thinking about it, and disconcerting to new players/people thinking of joining the forums.

B.  People who recognize the problem, are equally distressed by it, and choose to focus elsewhere, whether through productive contributions (like helping with fleet builds/rules/painting, discussing strategy, making and posting videos/battle reports) or in just engaging with the community (online and in-person tournament threads, off-topic games.)

I personally try to stay in B, since I feel it helps this game more than A.  When an appropriate protest thread flares up?  Sure, I'll throw my voice in with everyone else.  But little dumpster fires like this: what's the goal?  For Dras et al to just say "wow, **** me, communities are dying out, time to delete my account?"  There is no win condition, it's just boredom-induced venting.

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10 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

A.  People who focus on what we don't have, taking just about every opportunity to have the same conversations in a heavily-trafficked thread without new information to facilitate discussion.  This is exasperating to people who would rather talk about something else, grating on those of us who are just plain sick of thinking about it, and disconcerting to new players/people thinking of joining the forums.

B.  People who recognize the problem, are equally distressed by it, and choose to focus elsewhere, whether through productive contributions (like helping with fleet builds/rules/painting, discussing strategy, making and posting videos/battle reports) or in just engaging with the community (online and in-person tournament threads, off-topic games.)

I personally try to stay in B, since I feel it helps this game more than A.  When an appropriate protest thread flares up?  Sure, I'll throw my voice in with everyone else.  But little dumpster fires like this: what's the goal?  For Dras et al to just say "wow, **** me, communities are dying out, time to delete my account?"  There is no win condition, it's just boredom-induced venting.

Fair enough but it kinda seems like we are now scraping the barrel for things to talk about. Can’t talk about a new article. Cant really recommend purchases to new players because most stores are out of stock. Can’t talk about upcoming waves. Can’t generate excitement & enthusiasm for it with current & potential new players.

I’m all for being happy & positive but I need to be met half way. I’m begging FFG to take my money and even that is not happening! I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be open & honest about that.

For every person on here sick of people moaning the opposite is true when the happy police feel the need to weigh in also.

Anyways, that’s all I’ve really got to say on it.

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