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Tisis

Beyond Broken Pc's

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So running a BC game, I have a player who loves to look through all the books to find the most BS stuff he can get his hands on. Short of an Untouchable, I am at a loss on how to deal with him.

My problem is with a Thousand Son Sorc. Here's the basis of his stats

Psy rating 6/10 pushing WP of 70 with Unnat WP X2 He is possessed using the rules for ToD; he does not suffer the effects of Perils when he pushes powers.

A typical round of combat goes like this.

Cast Boon of Tzeentch. +1psy rating/DoS

factoring in the +50 Push on focus power test because of his psy rating and adding Unnat WP we have 70+50(PSY) +2DOS on successful roll

Say he rolls a 10. which means 12 DOS+ 2 DOS for UnWP bonus to his psy rating for 1 turn

Next round, Cast Echos of Malice

Psy rating 20 Makes his -20WP test Now all enemies within 100 Meters now suffer -100 to all stats and lose their reaction for 1 round

Page 256 Corebook, zero characteristic in toughness = death.

Nothing can withstand this except Nulls (Untouchables from Dark heresy rule set) Maybe Warded armor?

Other fun facts that add to the absurdity

Toughness is 45, factor in the Unnatural toughness (4) + daemonic (5) and Unholy Res(3) we have a toughness bonus of 16 + armor bonus of 8 all around

Also likes to cast Chitin Shell to add to his armor. I think its 1 AP per DoS sustains the power so usually he is adding an additional 7 points to his armor

16 Toughness+15 armor = 31 reduction

Face of Tzeentch( Fear 2) + (Fear 3) [Causing fear from possession] and has Daemonic Visage thus double DoF when opponents fail a wp test

so WP-50 vs fear and double the failure.

If he actually takes damage from whatever. Cast regeneration or unnatural healing after combat.

Random items

Talisman of Tzeentch, Opponent tests wp, and reduce psy rating by 1 per DoF.

Psychic hood focus power test to impose a -10 focus test to opponent no matter the range.

Shimmering Robes Gain forcefield =psy rating X9, so 54. if you count the boon of Tzeentch roll above it be effectively 100 for 1 turn

At this point he can destroy anything that he encounters. Even if he doesn't roll well on his Boon of Tzeentch test, he can spend a infamy point to increase the DoS by 1d5.

Who else has these types of problems in their campaign? Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

Edited by Tisis

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It is called a Vindicare Assassin at 3 miles. Surprise Round. Or Greyknight... or better yet. Greyknight with Vindicare assassin back up. 

 

 

Or just go with the Assassin designed literally to murder him. Culexus Assassin. Lets see him use Boon of Tzeentch against a man who literally turns that power back on him. Also I would argue that because he is possessed, and in canon Culexus Assassins can walk past daemon in the open and they can't see them I would argue that he would get minuses to even see the assassin coming even if he used Divination. 

 

 

Or go with the Rogue Trader route. Orbital Bombardment of his position because even Greater Daemons can not take a lance strike to the face and live, even according to the rules if the player is all about the rules.

 

 

All of these are... valid choices to knock him down a beg or two.

Edited by Sinpoder

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I'd be tempted to hard-counter him in return.

 

I.e. have him go 1v1 against a Khorne Berzerker enemy/NPC with Jump Pack/Wings, a Legacy and/or Daemon Weapon (With the Null quality) + Collar of Khorne.

 

If you want to add injury to the insult (!), give him a force field as well.

 

"U wot mate?"

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No player is truly unstoppable. A GM can always find a way to counter everything because you have an entire universe (and even stuff outside it) to throw at a character whereas they do not. You make this world and you can therefore break it. This will be long, go into somewhat of a ramble so bear with me and please save questions till the end.

 

One thing I note, I'm not sure where you have got the rule that says because he is possessed (tome of decay) that he is immune to the perils of the warp. As far as I am aware at most he would end up a Daemonic class of psyker which as per core rulebook mean he is immune to phenomenon but not a result which causes a peril of the warp. As far as I'm aware there are few creatures in the entire system immune to perils and those are untouchables, Khornites with their nulling tech and I think some of the named daemon princes have some resistance or immunity. If you can find me where this states he gets immunity to perils I will strike through this item. Otherwise, if that roll on the phenomenon table hits 75+ you get to use the fun table...

Remember that Boon of Tzeentch will be doing damage to him after he uses the second power equal to the PR achieved plus a D5. Possibly not a lot but taking these where you can.

 

Can't find the power you are referencing either (or abilities), echoes of malice. Have you got the book and page reference? I can't find a way to counter this if I can't find the ability but that seems like it would be incorrect or misused. So yes, if you can give me the page and book I can look. One of the creature traits may be able to counter it somehow.

 

How to counter and kill/brutalise a power gamer:

 

Chaos Stuff

Power levels for this guy are on par with daemonic enemies so let's look at a few and how we can use them. All daemons inflict a -20 penalty to all enemy Willpower tests while in range. It's non negotiable and will whittle some of that high bonus away. Take a fateweaver and modify it slightly perhaps? Daemons are fearless themselves so they should have no issues here. If you also think his Psy Rating hurts, take a look at the rules for a Lord of Change.

 

Base PR: 9. May use any Tzeentchian power without test and gets 1D5 DoS for doing it so go Boon of Tzeentch there so looking at PR14 off the bat. Now for the finale, the Lord of Change, once a day, may add a number of degrees of success equal to his intelligence bonus. This guy's bonus is also 9 so that's a max PR of 23. Good luck beating that. You can then use the same back on him with that Echoes of Malice (which again, still can't find).

 

Bloodthirster, it's almost always going to hit, it's got warp weapon so will cleave through his terminator armour and with the sheer number of attacks it could dish out then it's still got a chance of going through. Give it the Obsidian Star from the Tome of Decay Daemon princes wargear list (p71) which means that all psykers nearby have to half their PR, force weapons don't work and it grants a really high save resistance.

 

Nurgle assets are also effective. Consider using enemies with the corrosive weapon quality. As long as it hits it will erode armour each time. Eventually you can negate it entirely which leaves you on the toughness and natural resilience which should be easy to deal with using toxins or just brute force.

 

Xenos Filth

Tau Railguns...need I say more? 3D10+15 damage or +30 for the vehicle variant. Slug enough of those at someone from far enough away and he'll have to fail some saves eventually. Guided by pathfinders for closer up will aide in the hit chance. Everyone's luck has to run out sooner or later. Skyray missile barrage may also be amusing since the range of that is obscene. Good for when you want to have them vanish inside of blue goo

 

Ork Shokk Attack Gun, a funny item from the old 4th ed codex and yet to be brought up, it had an amusing mechanic that when attacking you rolled a random effect. On a double six you would obliterate whatever was under the blast radius without an armour save as it would vanish in an orb of unreality.

 

C'tan Shard, little bit underpowered for my liking from Deathwatch outer reaches but I guess it'll do. They have toned down the natural weapons from the old days of ignoring armour/fields but the abilities make up for it to a degree.

 

Imperial Scum

Your best chance of countering this could be to use the Ordo Malleus and indeed a Grey Knight. However...don't use one out of the book as I believe they are far too underpowered for what these guys should be. Instead consider making one using player character creation rules. Consider him neutral whatever upgrade he takes, flavour many of the existing rules mechanically to match a servant of the Emperor and not a heretic and give around about the same XP. Give him a well armed set of abilities as well, good PR, force weapons, hexagramic wards on his armour etc. You would probably be throwing a veteran tier against him. These chaps are able to outdo daemons so one heretic should be a cakewalk to this guy and his entourage.

 

Otherwise considering using agents of the Ordo Hereticus. Dark Heresy Second Edition (p296) has a great statline and abilities list for a Sister of Battle Canoness support character. While lacking in a straight fight, her abilities list make her brutal. The best ones for example:

 

Seal of Purity: The short version is that if you can spend time prepping this before hand (consider ambush etc), you can create a barrier through which no warp spawn or daemon may cross. He is possessed therefore counts as daemonic. Additionally powers they manifest cannot affect anything within or beyond the seal. This basically nullifies the high power rating.

 

 

DH2 Enemies Without (p40) also has rules for some of the agents of the Officio Assassinorum such as the Callidus Assassin. They have also been really nice in Fantasy Flight of keeping the Callidus phase sword true to traditional ideas. Effectively the phase sword cannot be blocked. At all. Ever. Damage caused by the weapon ignores ALL armour, force fields and similar defences and it cannot be dodged or parried at all, even by a weapon with a power field. Goodbye terminator armour and force field, now you just need to whittle away at the HP. Not easy but doable.

 

No current stats for a vindicare as far as I know but using Ascension as a baseline, their special ammo can either ignore their force field and any psychic defences or daemonic toughness (throwing them back to armour and normal) as well as knocking them out for a round, doing silly levels of damage and tearing with a higher crit chance or more damage and higher pen as well as ignoring his TB. However with a high level of accuracy, penalties to dodging the rounds and a good unseen vantage point this guy can just pepper with shots.

 

Finally for the assassins, yes it is a blank, just go with a Culexus Assassin. There are stats for some within Rogue Trader Navis Primer (p117). You may need to adjust it substantially to modernise it but these things are supposed to be a death sentence to anything psychic. First off, untouchable so goodbye to using anything psychic against it within around 10 meters. Next, the Animus Speculum is intended to deal massive damage only to psychic targets and do nothing against others and the version in RT has the Warp Weapon quality, so ignores armour. It'll need a boost of power though to stand up. Etherium which means you'll need a willpower test to attack him each round, psyk out grenades which inflict willpower damage in older versions...

 

Additionally all agents of the Officio Assassinorum all usually count as fearless (or equivalents of) so no chance of being scared off. They have often silly high levels of agility and the rule of being able to avoid any attack irrespective of source (within reason mind you as per my other rant) and are masters of blade, bolt or blaster. Agents of the assassinorum have been dispatched to deal with primarchs and greater daemons.

 

Don't forget the Imperial arsenal of null rods, witch bolts, psyk-out grenades or if you just want to be an absolute heartless bastard here are a small sample of items which you can use to perform a one shot kill:

 

Deathwatch Core Rulebook p152 - Vortex Grenade/Vortex Missile

Fail your dodge save and you go bye bye into the warp.

 

No current rules - Tesseract Labyrinth

No current rules in place but if you fail to avoid the effect you are forever trapped in a pocket dimension.

 

Deathwatch Core Rulebook p151 - Stasis bomb

Fail your save and you are stuck on the spot for a number of rounds unable to act. Good to let everyone set up.

 

Last Option - Corrupting

Your last way of dealing with him is to let him kill himself. He is a possessed character so if his corruption ever reaches 100 and he does not purge himself of that daemon then he is dead. The daemon manifests and is free in this realm for a while. The higher the corruption, the easier it gets. If you can therefore find ways to continue to boost his corruption such as by failings, loss of infamy, even nastier warp mojo, then you can use that to push someone closer to death faster. They cannot gain apotheosis while the daemon is within them and it will have to be purged at some point. This will be a long and drawn out process and cause permanent stat damage once complete.

Edited by Calgor Grim

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Calgor Grim; you are just the person I was hoping to see in this 

 

I've enjoyed your posts on a myriad of topics, its great you dropped by.

That being said....

 

This campaign were playing started with Hand of Corruption. Pc's have reached about 80 or so Infamy and about on par Corruption. Been playing for almost a year. I should go on to mention I have been Gm'ing all of our 40k games, from DH,BC,RT,DW; owning all respected books for each so I've poured through many and found some gems but I wanted additional input since I know I've missed things that counter the powergamer.

 

In HoC when the players encountered the Necrons I added a hard encounter of Litch Gaurd + homebrew Paraiahs. Once he couldnt use his Psy powers he said his character was useless and left the fight via his disk of Tzeentch.... :D

Needless to say Iv'e used items to make things a challenge. A Lathe Pattern Null Blocker field that had an extended range to protect mutiple allies; Null Rods; Pariahs. Anything that disrupts his Psykerness; he just shrugs and leaves the combat. Several times he has caused tech scorn with his perils and player consensuses is; it shuts down power armor and for 1 round all the players hate him. But this comes down to the GM singling out one specific player and punishing them; which I am not a fan of. I design encounters with Pc's in mind when they need to be hard; but again he tends to negate all the work with Echoes of Malice. 

 

Going on to say that this Pysker is not the only party member. I have  plague marine with a Toughness of 90, plus UnT 5,  termi armour and 30+wounds, He's a melee build so no issue, Hellhammers have put him in his place but he's not munchkin PC from a mechanic perspective.

 

Slaneshi Raptor with Psy4 and warptime. Push/ Sustain, means his lightening attacks are at 8DoS per single hit. Again, not an issue; one opponent is dead every round from his daemon forcesword. Hordes or 3 enemies shooting at him is his downfall so long as they would hit (only 2 dodges per turn)

 

Khornate chosen warrior with Hellblade only; no issue

 

Worldbearer Apostate, No issue

 

Veteran of the long war of Nurgle, ( essentially an Apothicary) no issue

 

I apologize for the lack of using Quote function, But I'll address valid points.

 

 

You are correct about the perils but, it should be phenomina; but with the Favored of the warp talent and rubric of Ahriman trait he rolls 2 sets of 1d00+ an additional die to both set and chooses the best combination. He has rolled Perils but fate has been kind, and clearly The lord of change is pleased with what he does...  Although I found in ToE Reality Bleeds glorifying act. I am certain to use this going forward.

 

Echos of Malice is in the TOF pg 45 Opponents at least get a WP save against the effect but the dice tend to roll 96's when I try.

 

 

Chaos Stuff

The Lord of Change, I ran an hypothetical encounter where he killed the entire party, no issue. Using Warp time from DH:A 134; being allowed to have 2 full turns and thus cast 2 Stasis shells DH:A 134 to negate 2 players off the bat for 1d5 rounds.

 

Problem is from a campaign standpoint, I can't just drop a Greater Daemon on them. I mean I can but it would be very forced from my standpoint and wouldn't work thematically.

 

Xenos Filth

They encountered Tau and the epic planned encounter of 50 Mag horde of Fire warriors, 30 Drones, 2 Crisis battle suites and 20 mag horde of Kroot, never happened. The other players role-played the crap out of the session and despite the odds, the dice prevailed and it was so disheartening. 

 

Haven't encountered Orks yet but that will be on the list. I think they have that gun in RT, the Navis primer or into the storm....maybe hostile acquisitions...looks very familiar.

 

He missed the session when the other pc's battled the C'tan shard. It was an epic battle. All the players had their Daemon weapons destroyed, all of them had the Daemon appear using the rules in TOB and had to contend with them and the C'tan.Also they all lost their power armour. fun times!

 

Imperial Scum

Greyknights...the ones in the book are ok but vastly underwhelming for this tier. Love the idea of building one. Looking through the DH:DHH I could build one up

 

Their is a stat line for a Vindicare Assassin in DW:EP p92; Eversor DH:A 198; Culexus RT; NP 117 [in my mind is the weakest of the 3] I'd add the Arcane eye does an additional point of damage per psy rating of the target..maybe felling (1) Fluff wise this is the literal embodiment of death to psykers..RAW attacking a CSM would do at most 16 damage ignoring armor; most marines can soak half that. Maybe its just me but I envision these to be a one shot your dead type deal.

-Realized its accurate, meaning it be much much meaner with many DoS. 3d10+6 no armor mmmm

I loved Sinpoders point of fluff about how Daemons cant see Culexus; perhaps it gets a +30 to attack every time!

 

 

I have yet to purchase any of the DH2.0; I've heard nothing of its merits (shame on me for not making my own opinion and buying the damned thing) only its shortcomings on how it takes cannon and negates it entirely. I was told a Feral world, Psyker, techpriest is a  player option. Reading some of your points, I think I will just have to give it a read.

 

Corrupting

This has been wonderful. He has missed the Major turn points during the campaign, so his Infamy is around 60 vs other pcs of 80. However he has 80+Corruption. Unfortunately the concept of spending XP to reduce corruption has been introduced thank you GM Guide; now that's what I assume he will be buying. Perhaps a limit on it.. you cannot reduce your CP below your current modifier. IE Corruption 92 couldn't spend XP to get it below a 90.

His character concept is to survive possession; he is contemplating to bind his soul into an item and be immortal. then try for Apothesis once he gets a machine frame. Concept is an Eldar Soulstone but more advanced Like Pontious Glaw. "knowledge check passed at a hellish test on Lore &Legends  "

 

 

All in all this was monumental in being helpful. I appreciate everyone's input and time to think of concepts. Since the Pc's are nearing end game and will be running a Black Crusade; Grey knights + Assassins are going to happen. Until then the campaign is on hiatus while I flesh out the goals and how to's of obtaining god specific favor for Apothesis for some. A My other idea is to just hand him an encounter of broken hot mess. Say Abbadon heard the plans of another marine attempting a Black crusade; not on his watch! Pc's now have to deal with me making whatever  combo I want to mess with them!  fter reading the Protean Form + Boon of Tzeentch loop... Hello psyker  who's rocking a psy of 50+ for a turn.

 

 

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The war scythe is so awesome, bypasses force fields and does insane damage. The necron horde was a threat, undodgeable attacks plus gauss.

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When I'm expected by someone to turn up...ah crap. By the way, wasn't questioning your GM credentials. :)

 

You say to me you can't see justification to drop a greater daemon on them. I would disagree. If, and this is depending how he is played, they are gloating or showing off about their power or boasting then the Chaos Gods may see this as an affront to things especially if they are slaying their followers or disrupting their plans. There would be no issue in terms of plot point with throwing them in to bring him down a peg or two. If not, Tzeentchian logic would mean you could do it anyway. His plans are indecipherable but it would work. You can then use this as logic to drop greater daemons and/or rival chaos lords into the mix with similar power levels. None can surely challenge them and if you give them a good mix of mutations even better. Consider for example a few custom mutated spawn of the chaos gods, a rival Slaaneshi warlord, multiple arms each with blade making many attacks a round...you can come up with something. It also doesn't have to cause a TPK either since the intent of such a lord may be to dominate the players group and open up a new plot angle for you or they may just have a grudge against them. As players infamy will rise it will cause attention to be drawn to them.

 
In terms of Echoes of Malice, ta for pointing it out, I can see it now. I think you are both using it incorrectly. It shouldn't be a one move instakill at least not how I read it. Not for what is only a PR4 power and 400xp power. Exact wording from the power, final section:
 

 

They also lose their Reaction this turn (if they have not used it already) and take a penalty to all Skill and Characteristic Tests equal to five times the psyker’s Psy Rating until the start of the psyker’s next turn.

 

The critical word is penalty, it's basically applying a negative modifier to all skill checks but is not causing characteristic damage and therefore they do not fall victim to instant death due to 0 toughness. Now the highest negative modifier allowed is up to you, the book seems to cap out around -70 for some tests but it's your call whether you allow the full -100 or more but this means the base modifier for the test starts at -70 and can then be improved so the enemy can negate some of that with their accuracy, skills, talents etc. At no point does it ever cause the enemies Characteristic to drop and just means they are more likely to screw up next round.

 

What you are thinking of is characteristic damage and there are few effects which cause this but they will specifically say in their effects characteristic damage. It may seem like the two terms can be used interchangeably but they really should not. One such example is the irradiated weapon quality from Tome of Decay which does 2D10 toughness damage and this will reduce the actual toughness value and if this causes it to hit zero then you are dead. You should be coming down hard on that although given how long it's been used for it is a little bit difficult to bring the rule into force. That will be left to you to decide whether you change and remove the "house ruling" you have gone for but it's something to note.

 

With his phenomenon roll, where's he getting two sets of dice from? Unless I've misread your post and in which case I apologise. Too much blood in my actual blood stream and not enough tea.

 

 

 

Favoured by the Warp

Whenever a Power Roll results in Psychic Phenomena, the character may roll one additional time on that table and take

the more favourable result.

So two shots on the phenomenon table, 6-2

 

 

Rubric of Ahriman:

and may roll an additional die when forced to roll on the Perils of the Warp table, discarding whichever one he chooses to get a more favourable result.

And now two shots on the perils table 6-3

 

He's pushing his powers. He's a daemonic psyker as you said which means he's adding +10 to the result at unfettered or up to +40 at push level to the phenomenon table so for the full amount this means he's got a 1/3 chance (ish) on both die even with favoured by the warp results to NOT hit the 75+ margin which will kick him onto the perils table. So far the odds are in the GM favour. Once on the Perils table many of these have a good chance of raising corruption or dealing with them but only things like Warp Lock have a chance of shutting them out of the problems but this causes corruption and locks out the next power.

 

But yes you'll need to buff the assassins up. If they are planning a Black Crusade soon then you have every chance that someone will overhear, their plans will be uncovered and agents of the False Emperor will pick up on them and seek to stop this before it starts. Prep an Inquisitor perhaps...stupid levels of gear and power at their disposal and the ability to command any Imperial asset they need for a goal,

Edited by Calgor Grim

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There are at the least some inconsistencies with handling the rules in this case. Others have already mentioned Echoes of Malice (which just applies a penalty to tests) and the business about pushing still being tricky (because Demonic and Favoured by the Warp don't work with Perils). And while he does get to roll twice and choose the better result for Phenomena, if he's pushing for +4 then he's getting +40 to all such rolls, and he can't use Rubric of Ahriman to replace a die for that (since it's only for Perils).

 

I should note that Unnatural Characteristics are additive as of BC and only grant half their value to additional DoS, so the Thousand Sons Sorcerer gets +1 DoS which is nice but not wild. The bonus from Boon of Tzeentch "...may only be used on the next power the Sorcerer uses...", so it won't help with Shimmering Robes. Finally, keep in mind that Boon of Tzeentch is a considerable windup of a power. Not only does it take a turn to use (during which you can't use anything else with the Attack or Concentration subtypes like Echoes of Malice or any of the damaging powers), but after the bonus gets used it deals a sizable amount of unblockable (though not wholly unsoakable) damage with a stun proc. (And Echoes of Malice itself only lasts for a round, if a target fails their WP (+0) test.)

 

All that said, I do sympathize with your situation. Psykers were still very much at their apex in BC, even despite the fact that your particular psyker could actually be doing worse with social buffs/Bolt of Change/Force Storm. And it sounds like the player really wants to have their cake and eat it too, from seeking apotheosis despite their high Corruption and possession, to generally sulking if he can't negate something with a power, to not caring too much about playing nice with the other players. My advice, then:

  • Talk with the problem player and the others on their expectations, and present yours as well. It sounds like the former is going for a power fantasy, which is fine in proper circumstances but really not what you're trying to present. Meanwhile the rest of the players are fine with the more usual BC experience of playing supervillains fighting against a grim world, which from all accounts you seem fine with. If you can't come to a consensus then you may have to drop the player.
  • Hold him to the letter of the law on possession. Possession in BC is explicitly about getting more power now in exchange for long-term sacrifice, and letting the character "bind his soul to an item" flies in the face of that. Have the daemon get on his ass whenever appropriate, such as when he gains Corruption or Invokes the Daemon. And if he does try to exorcise himself, let him do so (with appropriate tests) as long as he takes the corresponding drawbacks such as gaining 2d10 Corruption. (These are mentioned in the possession ritual on page 49 of ToD.)
  • Hold him to the letter of the law on corruption. If he wants to remove it by spending XP, let him! The price is already pretty staggering, at 250 XP per CP, to the point where any of my players would have balked. In fact all methods of removing Corruption or reducing its gains are onerous in some manner or another. A Simulacrum Effigy only reduces gains by half and might explode or be used against you, False Repentance requires burning Infamy (and not getting to push your next mutation roll around), and Necron Phylacteries require Machine 3+ along with some serious connections (as each is Unique/Best, single-use, and explicitly up to GM discretion).

As a side note, DH2E is a notable improvement on DH1E in general. There isn't quite the same depth of lore around, but that's purely a result of fewer books being published and you can likely just port in relevant concepts anyway. I don't recall it really screwing around with canon so much as focusing on its own little sector, as you'd expect. And as for a "Feral world, Psyker, techpriest" character, well...that sounds like a really weird and interesting story. Tell me, [player], exactly what nonsense conspired against you to give you this kind of upbringing?  ^_^ (Also, Culexus Assassins got a reprint in DH2E's Enemies Beyond. As with the previous books, they get Temple Assassin, which is one of the most powerful abilities that you could put on a monster.)

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Once he couldnt use his Psy powers he said his character was useless and left the fight via his disk of Tzeentch....

So he's a bit of a baby as well as a fairly ludicrous power gamer. Then I have no qualms about smacking him down or reminding him that he is only a mortal in a game of gods.

 

As others have mentioned, this Thousand Sons Sorcerer has a lot of power but the drawbacks are pretty substantial. Possession is never a simple case of gaining more power with no downside. Heck, have the daemon attempt to wrestle control of his body at inopportune moments. Sure the opposed WP test is likely to go in his favour but consider what happens if, say, the daemon forced this test in the middle of a dangerous ritual.

 

Alternatively, depending on the nature of the daemon that has possessed him, what about if the daemon is somehow important to someone else's plans? This is particularly interesting the daemon is Tzeentchian or there are rival Chaos sorcerers that want this daemon's power. If you wanted to truly be a jerk, maybe have someone out there know the daemon's true name and use it against him. I don't know how effective speaking a daemon's true name would be when it is possessing someone but I would rule that the benefits of the possession are substantially reduced, even if only momentarily.

 

The suggestions of null stuff or sheer firepower to curb some of his power ego are good but I'd be inclined to stick with daemons. He got his power from daemons and his downfall can be from daemons (either the one possessing him or something else). If he's going to whine when he's being targeted or harassed by daemons regularly, maybe remind him that Chaos is not something to be trifled with. Pushing constantly is going to attract someone or something's attention and having no backup plan for when he can't use psychic powers is his own fault. Putting all your eggs in one basket tends to get them all blown up at once in Black Crusade.

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I cannot thank you all enough. pointing out that EOM is a penalty to the characteristic and not damage makes all the difference. Sure opponents will not hit you with their next attack (hordes excluded) but at least its not literal insta death like he claimed it to be. I cannot tell you how many times I read and reread to ensure I was understanding it. Its been a fault on my shoulders mostly. We've been playing together for years and currently sharing a house with his GF. He has a strong grasp of the mechanics of the game but I wonder if he uses abilities to his interpretation. The whole rolling 2 sets of 3d10 and picking the best roll is not a thing. its 1d00+1d10 for perils and for phenomina but not both simultaneously. I should have looked into all of this to begin with...old adage "trust but verify". Needless to say, its going to be a discussion.

 

This is his thing. He combs the books for absurdity and stacks to builds a pc around that fact. we started a 2nd deathwatch story where I wasnt a GM. With all of his mathing, he has an Iron Hands Devastator with heavy bolter and special shells that do blast damage. Vs a horde, he dealt I want to say around 70 magnitude damage in a turn...

 

As for his possession, he has a Tzeentch daemon; its WP is I think a 68, his is 70 Unnatural +2

 

For the DoS thing with Unnatural stats; the player consensus was to keep it at the 1 degree per 1 unnatural. House rule that wasnt an issue until his psyker came along lol.

 

For DH2, is the temple assassin pretty much the same as DH:A? gain additional reactions per round = your agility modifier. Can dodge attacks that should be undodgeable; IE invisible psychic attack, or a titans descending foot.

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What does the character even get out of possession? Most of the effects seem marginal compared to the player's probable desire to just blast stuff with powers, and even Invoking the Demon won't do him much good if his power stat (WP) is better than its.

 

For the DoS thing with Unnatural stats; the player consensus was to keep it at the 1 degree per 1 unnatural. House rule that wasnt an issue until his psyker came along lol.

Gotcha. Any particular reason why? I'm mostly just curious here.

 

For DH2, is the temple assassin pretty much the same as DH:A? gain additional reactions per round = your agility modifier. Can dodge attacks that should be undodgeable; IE invisible psychic attack, or a titans descending foot.

Pretty much. The printed Culexus Assassin "only" has a mere 51 Agility and thus can "only" Dodge six times per round. Though at least they don't also have Harlequin flip-belts, which give a free reroll to Dodge tests.

Edited by NFK

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I mean I'd debate what can and cannot be dodge able since even an assassin will struggle to clear a lance blast at ground zero without slowing time but yes the new version still gets a silly number of reactions and the ability to use them. Plus I believe they have a fate point or two so its re-roll time. Also, ever tried giving an assassin the flip belt? Funny as hell watching someone spray a billion rounds a turn and miss them all.  :)

The long and the short of this though, seems like a few simple rule misinterpretations. If it's innocent and genuine mistake then should be no problem putting things back at your discretion but if intentional and they were taking the mickey then...well...bring out the legendary GM tool, the +100 unobtainium spiked power hammer of smiting.

May the dice gods be in your favour and remember to tell us how this resolves or we will be sending a Lictor after you which hasn't had his morning coffee and grumpy as hell.

Edited by Calgor Grim

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As for his possession, he has a Tzeentch daemon; its WP is I think a 68, his is 70 Unnatural +2

 

Just an observation - a daemon with a willpower of ~70 is going to be quite a powerful one, and probably have infamy points to boot. Having it throw them all into a mastery test when he's already exhausted his is quite an unfortunate possibility. 

 

Boon Of Tzeench isn't that lethal (it's not meant to be), although I'd expect a fair amount of damage if he uses it on Phenomenal Cosmic Power setting. But it's also shocking, and failing a shocking test and being stunned during a psychic phenomena is exactly the sort of situation the daemon is likely to try and take advantage of. Don't keep doing it, but try it at least once...

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For the DoS thing with Unnatural stats; the player consensus was to keep it at the 1 degree per 1 unnatural. House rule that wasnt an issue until his psyker came along lol.

Gotcha. Any particular reason why? I'm mostly just curious here.

 

This came from many years ago when we played Dark Heresy. The bonus multiplier added to the DoS, although that system you needed 10 points over your roll to get 1 DoS! 

We started with that and moved through the product line keeping it. It just made more stats more viable outside of combat. Figure a CSM would add an additional 4 points of damage on a hit whereas a tech pries with Unnatural Intelligence 2 would only get +1Dos on a successful roll for tech use. Just didn't seem that worth while to have any unnatural stats that weren't combat oriented, although its not like you have to really earn those stats, can just requisition, infamy, acquisition test to get items.

Oh Dark Heresy; buying items was so stupid but man did you feel like a badass when you could afford your big ticket item like a melta gun, or a best quality chain sword.

"Yah I got a Godwynn Bolter, gonna mess some heretics up! but not too many...I only make 100 thrones a month so I can only fire half a clip...a month..." those were the days. :D

 

 

 

 

 

The long and the short of this though, seems like a few simple rule misinterpretations. If it's innocent and genuine mistake then should be no problem putting things back at your discretion but if intentional and they were taking the mickey then...well...bring out the legendary GM tool, the +100 unobtainium spiked power hammer of smiting.

May the dice gods be in your favour and remember to tell us how this resolves or we will be sending a Lictor after you which hasn't had his morning coffee and grumpy as hell.

 

Actually I think I will just give them the legendary Pc destroyers: Angry Marines  :lol:

Although the Lictor might be an issue for me!

 

 

 

Excellent point, I'll be certain to play that out. Although I miss the original possession..you lose utter control of your character!

 

 

 

 

What does the character even get out of possession? Most of the effects seem marginal compared to the player's probable desire to just blast stuff with powers, and even Invoking the Demon won't do him much good if his power stat (WP) is better than its.

Possession is ridiculous with TOD The Daemonic manifestations are well worth the sacrifice... realistically they would make for a disgusting melee character. Getting increases to Strength and toughness, additional damage in melee, dealing toxic damage or tainted..let alone felling and razor sharp. All tied to your corruption. Just sayin

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Don't forget a basic psy hood.  Any psyker can use it to stop another psykers powers from affecting them personally really easily.  

A gaggle of them can work together to make it hard for him to cast his powers at all.

 

and lets not forget that you control the warp.  Make it flow hard or low at various points in the campaign (and not just at the screw you moments)

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...

 

Hey... look, someone turned on one of the larger necron null field generators. No psychic powers at all on this planet. Oh noes...

 

Oh, and demons can't come willingly into the field once it's up... no disk to fly him away... Oh noes...

 

What? Three tomb spiders and four wraiths have him targeted and he might actually end up having to be a marine and fighting them with his wits and a gun? Oh noes... roleplaying opportunities, nooooooo! Power gamer not come to rpg to role play! What witchery is this?

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What does the character even get out of possession? Most of the effects seem marginal compared to the player's probable desire to just blast stuff with powers, and even Invoking the Demon won't do him much good if his power stat (WP) is better than its.

Possession is ridiculous with TOD The Daemonic manifestations are well worth the sacrifice... realistically they would make for a disgusting melee character. Getting increases to Strength and toughness, additional damage in melee, dealing toxic damage or tainted..let alone felling and razor sharp. All tied to your corruption. Just sayin

 

Your earlier comments mention that this sorcerer has 80+ Corruption so they have, at most, 4 daemonic manifestations. The problem with having this many manifestations is that the daemon is having a greater and greater influence on the physical and mental form of the person that's being possessed. Rather than having a low level possession, the player has courted corruption and let the daemon infest almost every aspect of their being. If the player is trying to avoid getting outright possessed with his backup soulstone-esque thing, I reckon that's a pretty simple instance where the daemon would struggle for control and fight against him every step of the way. Also note that whenever the daemon attempts to assert control (as per pg. 60 of ToD), the daemon can choose to either use its own WP or the Corruption of the character that it is possessing. The player can only use their WP or their Infamy to oppose the daemon. Quite honestly, this player is screwed if the daemon makes a concerted effort to take over because he let his Corruption get higher than his own WP and Infamy. He's going to lose eventually; it's just a matter of time.

 

On a second point, why on earth does the player complain that he can't do anything if he can't use his psychic powers? He's freaking possessed and has close combat abilities out the wazoo that would rip most people to shreds if he only used them. "Oh no, I can't use my mind powers but I have this massive daemon claw/tentacle/whatever that can mince my enemies. I'll just give up because without my psychic powers I'm useless". I'm sorry but this guy seriously needs a wakeup call.

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Try "Sororitas Sanctified Smackdown"! Remembering that Pure Faith gives immunity to demonic presence, and Holy damage can't be regenerated, only healed naturally, also ignores demonic boost to TB. A squad of SoB seraphim, with a good mix of faith powers for mutual benefits plus damage buffs from Emperor's Wrath, backed by a horde of Frateris Milita or Redemptionist fanatics...

Edit: Forgot to state the obvious, build them using DH:BoM !

Edit2: Meant that demons can't regenerate/psychic heal Holy damage ...

Edited by AxeSpanna

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Try "Sororitas Sanctified Smackdown"! Remembering that Pure Faith gives immunity to demonic presence, and Holy damage can't be regenerated, only healed naturally, also ignores demonic boost to TB. A squad of SoB seraphim, with a good mix of faith powers for mutual benefits plus damage buffs from Emperor's Wrath, backed by a horde of Frateris Milita or Redemptionist fanatics...

Edit: Forgot to state the obvious, build them using DH:BoM !

Edit2: Meant that demons can't regenerate/psychic heal Holy damage ...

You can do some mean anti-psyker stuff with the IH, but BoM is probably be . . .

 

no, I can't say it. I would (probably) flat-out refuse to play in a campaign with the faith powers in that book as written. The equipment in there is pretty cool though (some of it is practically mandatory regardless of which SoB career you use).

Edited by Servant of Dante

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I feel for you Tisis. 

 

But rather than fighting fire with fire (i.e. meeting his OP character with OP enemies), I'd suggest a different tack. Don't look for solutions in the rules - look for solutions in the story. 

 

Change the nature of play to make this nob's character useless. He might be a unstoppable min-maxed cheese tornado in combat; but I'll wager that's all he can do. Good. Spend a few sessions in roleplay-heavy non-combat. Engineer situations where your other players have a chance to shine. Engineer situations where the other players inadvertently screw with his powers/plans. 

 

All of these things are possible. He will eventually either decide that:

 

1. You suck as a GM. He's going to go join a game where he's allowed to indulge all of his powergaming, rules-lawyering dweebishness; or

2. Yeah. OK. That character's kinda stupid. Maybe he'll tone it down a bit. 

 

Both are wins. 

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I feel for you Tisis. 

 

But rather than fighting fire with fire (i.e. meeting his OP character with OP enemies), I'd suggest a different tack.

Heresy of the highest degree! Ultra heretical! As a devout sisters of battle player, there is no problem that cannot be solved with the use of more fire. If it hasn't gone away then you are not using enough of it and should add more.

Fire solves all problems, period.

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