Math it out: Raider I vs GSD II w/ Demo point-defense

[tgall 796]

Demolisher as an AA platform instead of an strong alpha strike choice... <tear> 

 

and I've been thinking exactly the same thing. 

[Darthfish 806]

I have been playing around with an interdictor build with a wolf pack of glad 2s.  In simulations, the glads can take care of themselves with 2 blue dice each, especially is they stay in a group of 2 or 3 on their way to killing big ships, they shred enemy squadrons quite nicely.

 

Of course, I haven't tried this for real, in part because I only own 2 glads, but the durability, larger arc, and greater range of the glad make it the better choice to my way of thinking, though the instigator title has some merit

[Jondavies72 575]

I thought about fct, to get a free mithel along with regular activation in one turn, not sure its worth it/required... plus losing engine tech is bad for a anti ship and anti squad...

The big issue is the engagement... you need to control the flow of battle so that demo can either shot squads or ships and doesn't have to make a tough decision between both... rhyme can help by keeping squads back enough so that any squads that engage them, demo can focus on without worrying about a ship...

I played a general purpose demo ( glad2) at UK nationals supported by two other glad twos a glad one and a raider (instigator) and a couple of ties. It was the first time I played it as I normally play a five activation anti ship demo, 4 raide with fireball list.

The GPDemo and friends works very well as you can focus down ships or bomber balls. What you can't do is both at the same time, if you are going to focus the bomber ball you must focus it till it's dead, same as we do with ships. Trying to split your fire between bombers and ships just leaves both on the board.

As I've played demo based lists I've move from:

Anti ship demo( heavy) glad 1, ACM, engine tech,,OE, IO. ( played with 4 raiders and fireball)

Anti ship demo( light) glad 1 APT, engine tech, OE, IO. ( played with 4 raiders and fireball)

GP demo, Glad 2, APT, engine tech,OE, IO ( played with 3 glads 2 mk2s and 1 mk1, instigator and 2 ties)

I'm going to move to a new GP demo build for wave three so I can take out flotillas as well, I will be changing out OE for sensor team and IO for agent kallus. I figure that running with scree should give you the dice mods you need to keep it a threat to ships, kallus and sensor teams ( backed up by scree) will be nasty to a scatter ace. sensor teams also means that floats will die in one arc.

[TheEasternKing 607]

Why would you not just use Raiders for AA platforms, or some of the insanely powerful anti squadron squadrons Imperials get? This is up there with putting Enhanced Armament on a Liberty and taking Admiral Ackbar.

[Trizzo2 419]

Why would you not just use Raiders for AA platforms, or some of the insanely powerful anti squadron squadrons Imperials get? This is up there with putting Enhanced Armament on a Liberty and taking Admiral Ackbar.

 

That's ridiculous. You have all the upgrades to make Demo work as AA, all of them you are taking anyway. The choice comes down to +6 points, swap 1 dice + another and target selection. Upgrade to a GSD II, Demo Intel Off, OE, APT. You are still a terror to ships and now you are statisticlly almost par with the statisticlly deadliest point defense (Rdr1 w/ OE) And I have tested the GSD II in actual games. Winner of one store champs and runner up of another using the GSD II in the exact setup I described to compliment AA for a Fireball or win the mirror. There is nothing counter-synergestic about a GSD II shooting squadrons.

 

It's completetly asinine to write something off you clearly havn't tested, in a thread about a different topic (but no worries because discussion is a rabbit hole and welcome) doubly so by comparing it to a janky combo.

 

Why not use anti squadron squadrons? Was that part of the initial question? No. Of course taking squadrons to counter squadrons is the obvious choice.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Trizzo2

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

Why would you not just use Raiders for AA platforms, or some of the insanely powerful anti squadron squadrons Imperials get? This is up there with putting Enhanced Armament on a Liberty and taking Admiral Ackbar.

 

That's ridiculous. You have all the upgrades that you would take on a Demo anyway to make it work as AA, the choice comes down to +6 points, 1 dice and target selection. Upgrade to a GSD II, Demo Intel Off, OE, APT. Now you are statisticlly almost par with the deadliest point defense (Rdr1 w. OE) and can still push ships in. Ohh and I have tested the GSD II in actual games. Winner of one store champs and runner up of another and using the GSD II in the exact setup I described to compliment AA for for a Fireball or mirrors. There is nothing counter-synergestic about a GSD II shooting squadrons.

 

It's completetly asinine to write something off you clearly havn't tested, doubly so by comparing it to a janky combo.

 

Why not use anti squadron squadrons? Was that part of the initial question? No. Of course taking squadrons to counter squadrons is the obvious choice.

 

 

A Raider 1 with OE comes in at 48pts, and is a deadly AA platform. Demolisher is usually 82-95pts, meaning you can have 2 Raider I's for virtually the same cost.

 

Demolisher has one thing nothing else in the Imperial Fleet can match, the capability to move into range and unload its black dice, every other Imperial ship has a real issue getting the full complement of its best arcs into play. The game lasts 6 rounds, usually nothing happens till round 2, sometimes round 3, meaning you do not have time to be wasting Demolsher chasing squadrons.

 

Demolisher is absolutely the very last thing any Imperial Commander should be looking to for Anti Squadron duties.

 

If you want to use a non demo Gladiator for AA duties, fair enough, that is your choice.

Edited August 30, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[Trizzo2 419]

 

 

Why would you not just use Raiders for AA platforms, or some of the insanely powerful anti squadron squadrons Imperials get? This is up there with putting Enhanced Armament on a Liberty and taking Admiral Ackbar.

 

That's ridiculous. You have all the upgrades that you would take on a Demo anyway to make it work as AA, the choice comes down to +6 points, 1 dice and target selection. Upgrade to a GSD II, Demo Intel Off, OE, APT. Now you are statisticlly almost par with the deadliest point defense (Rdr1 w. OE) and can still push ships in. Ohh and I have tested the GSD II in actual games. Winner of one store champs and runner up of another and using the GSD II in the exact setup I described to compliment AA for for a Fireball or mirrors. There is nothing counter-synergestic about a GSD II shooting squadrons.

 

It's completetly asinine to write something off you clearly havn't tested, doubly so by comparing it to a janky combo.

 

Why not use anti squadron squadrons? Was that part of the initial question? No. Of course taking squadrons to counter squadrons is the obvious choice.

 

 

 

Demolisher is absolutely the very last thing any Imperial Commander should be looking to for Anti Squadron duties.

 

If you want to use a non demo Gladiator for AA duties, fair enough, that is your choice.

 

 

This is totally the wrong way to even approach thinking about the game, as in X thing has Y roll, it will only ever do this thing because that's common practice.

 

Squadrons are points. Kill them you get points. Kill them so you save loosing points. 134 point squadron lists is 134 extra MoV to potentially collect. Not every Demo has to have DeMSU tunnel vision.

 

And a non Glad Demo is fair enough to use for AA but a title that improves the AA potential is not the right use of it?...hmmm

 

You don't have to act in anyway particular way but i prefer to have the choice of being able to attack mulitple targets. Demo being strong against ships =/= never shoot squadrons with Demo. Do what makes sense to do.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Trizzo2

[TheEasternKing 607]

 

 

 

Why would you not just use Raiders for AA platforms, or some of the insanely powerful anti squadron squadrons Imperials get? This is up there with putting Enhanced Armament on a Liberty and taking Admiral Ackbar.

 

That's ridiculous. You have all the upgrades that you would take on a Demo anyway to make it work as AA, the choice comes down to +6 points, 1 dice and target selection. Upgrade to a GSD II, Demo Intel Off, OE, APT. Now you are statisticlly almost par with the deadliest point defense (Rdr1 w. OE) and can still push ships in. Ohh and I have tested the GSD II in actual games. Winner of one store champs and runner up of another and using the GSD II in the exact setup I described to compliment AA for for a Fireball or mirrors. There is nothing counter-synergestic about a GSD II shooting squadrons.

 

It's completetly asinine to write something off you clearly havn't tested, doubly so by comparing it to a janky combo.

 

Why not use anti squadron squadrons? Was that part of the initial question? No. Of course taking squadrons to counter squadrons is the obvious choice.

 

 

 

Demolisher is absolutely the very last thing any Imperial Commander should be looking to for Anti Squadron duties.

 

If you want to use a non demo Gladiator for AA duties, fair enough, that is your choice.

 

 

This is totally the wrong way to even approach thinking about the game.

 

Squadrons are points. Kill them you get points. Kill them so you save loosing points. 134 point squadron lists is 134 extra MoV to potentially collect. Not every Demo has to have DeMSU tunnel vision.

 

And a non Glad Demo is fair enough to use for AA but a title that improves the AA potential is not the right use of it?...hmmm

 

You don't have to act in anyway but i prefer to have the choice of being able to attack mulitple targets.

 

 

The wrong way to approach thinking about the game?

 

Hmm Demolisher is outstanding at destroying ships, I know I'll use it to attack squadrons! this is the right way of thinking about the game?

 

Yes squadrons are points, which is why you take things that are great at killing squadrons to get them points, and leave the one thing that excels at killing ships, killing ships.

 

How many stands of squadrons do you need to kill to even break even on Demolisher? which is going to be getting shot by ships while its hunting squadrons, you know because everyone knows it is deadly.

Edited August 30, 2016 by TheEasternKing

[Trizzo2 419]

Yes squadrons are points, which is why you take things that are great at killing squadrons to get them points

 

Hmm Demolisher is outstanding at destroying ships, I know I'll use it to attack squadrons! this is the right way of thinking about the game? (strawman)

 

Which is going to be getting shot by ships while its hunting squadrons (goalpost shifting)

 

 

Fallacious arguments all.

 

 

You don't have to act in anyway particular way but i prefer to have the choice of being able to attack mulitple targets.

 

 

And I should add be good at both roles (AA and anti ship)

 

AA is always supporting fire. It helps finish off squadrons. Nobdy jams a single strong point defense ship into a squadron ball and expects an even trade. As for your earlier comments I don't know how you play but on turns 1-2- maybe 3 a Demo could be shooting buckets of dice against Boosted Comms range squadrons whilst on it's way to hunt ships and safely out of range, wow it is easy is it to make up anything i want to support my argument!

 

The game isn't all about hard or soft counters. AA fire will always assist Flight Controllered Interceptors regardless of how good they are at killing squadrons. Back to the supporting fire idea.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Trizzo2

[TheEasternKing 607]

Out of range on turn 3?

 

Demo build comes in at 92pts

 

You can take Vader/Dengar/Mauler/Soontir/Ig-88 for 95pts

Or 6 Aggressor Assault Fighters for 96ts

 

Demo doing 2 damage per round on average to a squadron will take 3 rounds on average to kill an X-wing

Vader and Co should kill 2-3 per round

Aggressors should kill 2-3 per round

 

 

Did you some how miss all the threads about Demolisher being broken/OP because it can triple tap just about every ship in the game? but yes by all means call me names because I think its best use is killing ships, while you use the best anti squadron synergy squadrons in the game, to kill squadrons.

 

Yes you can use Demo to kill squadrons, you can use anything to kill squadrons, especially ones that are being engaged by squadrons, but it is the absolute last thing you should be aiming for when you build your fleet.

[Ginkapo 8,527]

Eastern. Your argument is essentially, x is the only answer.

There are multiple answers.

[Hamanu1 134]

Would gunnery teams on a Demolisher solve the problem by allowing it to shoot at ships and squadrons?

[TheEasternKing 607]

Eastern. Your argument is essentially, x is the only answer.

There are multiple answers.

 

Not what I said at all, but if that is what you want to take away from what I did say, fine with me.

[Green Knight 8,822]

Would gunnery teams on a Demolisher solve the problem by allowing it to shoot at ships and squadrons?

 

No. Because then you're spreading your fire between different targets.

[Tranenturm 470]

The high variance for the Glad is an advantage here. When shooting on a ball of many targets the odds are equal for 0 hits and 4 hits. However, with enough targets odds of good that at least one will take 3-4 hits. This means your follow up squadrons can eliminate these specific targets. This would not be possible with less variable fire.

I.e. High variance fire on equal value targets stochastically creates a focus fire effect from that round of fire that more targeted fire can follow up on.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Tranenturm

[Jondavies72 575]

I've played a five activation demo list a fair bit and I found a number of things:

1) a full fat anti ship last first demo, will still need a big of help to kill hard ships ( motti ISD, MC30 builds and defensive MC80s), so I was always swinging in a second ship for the final kill.

2) A Demo with less focus on anti ship ( GP glad 2) with a follow up second ship kills the hard ships just as well.

3) less hard to kill ships will die to a trip tap from a full fat anti ship glad or a less focused GP.

So all in all you may as well go for a more GP demo build in the high activation last first build.

One weakness the build was:

1) the weak fire ball I had was being taken apart and giving away 90 odd pionts.

2) my small ships could easily be hunted by list with 134 fighter investments after they had taken apart my fire sprays.

I moved to a five activation list of 4 glads a raider ( instigator) and 2 ties, three of the glads where 2s with one being a GP demo. With this you can simply take apart 134 points of fighters if it comes in range then kill the key ships or kill the keys ships first ( as per the standard five activation tactics) and then take the fighers apart later if they keep coming at you.

It's a little bit of lost firer power on your trip tap ( that is wasted a lot) to give you options against bomber based lists. It's not stupid,just different.