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19 hours ago, LordBritish said:

I also heavily debunk the idea that a form is a series of rigid techniques that can only ever be applied to a particlar form; a form to a Jedi or sith is an ideology that embodies a particular pattern or mindset in the given environment with some overlap in-between side from some of the really Nichie forms (Makashi in particular is referenced to have only been designed for sword combat, thus disadvantagous when being shot at). Juyo is particularly mentioned because it is an aggressive form in both the mind and spirit; it's flaws are less in the techniques then it is in throwing away technique and engaging your foe completely to kill them, instead on drawing on a more disciplined mindset that doesn't interact with a target to quite that extent but establishes a standard protocol of techniques that removes passion fron the fight.

Personally, lightsaber forms is one of those fluff things that make Jedi sound fancy, but ultimately is a salad dressing to a otherwise bland lettuce. Heck, I honestly believe even a person who has never met a Jedi could cobble together a form resembling one of the 7, just based on their instinctive thinking when dealing with a combatant. Some Jedi are just hopelessly incapable at deflecting blaster bolts and instead prefer to pour all their passion into researching the force/dueling based forms. Most of those people probably died on Genosis or never was on the front lines (Same, we rarely see Dooku in a situation where he's being shot at)

Yes and no.  I imagine the forms are quite similar to our martial arts.  Sure they will differ in both ideology and mindset, but also technique.  Every martial art has set kata/drills they run through for a reason.  They teach the user how to attack, defend, and most importantly how to maneuver ones self.  Saying the differences between Ataru and Shien are just fluff, is the equivalent of saying the differences between muay thai and karate are similarly fluff.  Any experienced martial artist would either laugh at you, or think you've lost your mind.

As someone who's practiced kendo for 14 years now, I can tell you that any random person handed a sword would NOT be able to create a new martial art form.  People might think it looks easy.  They may even be arrogant enough to believe they know what they're doing having seen it in a movie.  The reality is far more amusing to the onlookers.  Hand a random person a bokken and all they'll "cobble together" is a youtube video of some silly guy waving a stick around!

Edited by TalosX

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4 hours ago, TalosX said:

Hand a random person a bokken and all they'll "cobble together" is a youtube video of some silly guy waving a stick around!

Not quite a Bokken but...

...I think this illustrates his point.

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Re swords: fair enough. My comment is about light saber forms in mystical plasma sword combat and there are clear differences between a master and a noice when Vader was trying to be gentle to Luke or Kylo Ren/epic stormtrooper thrashing Finn, thus one can't make something up entirely and make it work, that much I agree on. 


What i I do disagree with is the sangifance of the 7 forms to start with. I believe that narratively the forms aren't very important for rebellion era storytelling. Luke spent most of the OT with minimal tutorship and after a year of focusing on his development figured out what worked for him. Rey figured it out even though she likely hadn't handled one since childhood (though that may change, personally I think she's a clone). I'm not talking about a complete novice picking up a stick and pretending to invent a new and amazing way to fight, I'm talking about a survivor who gets lucky and had to learn how to reinvent the wheel to survive. The resulting light saber play wouldn't be perfect replica of any given form, after honing it in life and death situation it would have all the boons and critical flaws of the character, but given time and proper thought and training partners I believe it's totally doable to eventually invent a form similar to what came before independently. I personally feel that the 7 forms are  narrative salad dressing within the rebellion era and beyond, because the knowledge for these aren't around anymore.


I guess the more critical question is what would compel one to pick up a blade in a era of guns and outlawed Samuari? That is what I find interesting.

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With Luke, in Legends at least he was noted to be something of a prodigy when it came to lightsaber dueling, and almost instinctively adapted Vader's usage of Form V for use in his own fighting techniques, which were probably based upon Form I/Shii-Cho since that's the basis for all lightsaber dueling methods and each of the other Forms are built upon a foundation of Shii-Cho.  As for Rey, she only looked impressive when compared to Finn (who got his *** kicked the way a neophyte using an unfamiliar weapon would be, though he did get in a single lucky shot before Kylo stopped toying with him) and to Kylo's own unsophisticated approach; against a classically-trained Jedi Padawan both Rey and Kylo would have looked like clumsy apes and likely been defeated without much trouble or effort on the Jedi Padawan's part.  Against a Jedi Knight, Rey or Kylo would have faired about as well as Alexandro did against Don Diego de la Vega in the start of the training montage from The Mask of Zorro (which is not very), with the Knight likely having the same bored expression that Anthony Hopkins had during that scene.

While I agree that Forms aren't strictly regimented in terms of moves used (especially as they all pull from the same core source of Shii-Cho), and that many Jedi Knights incorporated elements from different Forms into their core fighting style (Anakin made frequent use of Ataru prior to his defeat on Mustafar, then as Vader reinforced his Form V with elements of Shii-Cho and Makashi to better defend his center) they all do involve very different mindsets in how they approach fighting with lightsaber, and those mindsets inform how the Jedi wields their lightsaber.  Obi-Wan's adoption of Soresu results in him fighting very differently from Anakin's brute force Form V strikes or Yoda's Ataru-based bouncy-ball of doom or Dooku's precision-based Makashi moves.  To quote a line by George Carlin in regards to playing the blues (and why white folks in his opinion have no business doing so), "you not only need to know what notes to play, but why they need to be played."  The Lightsaber Forms are, in some respect, not unlike that, in that while they might have very similar notes, they each make for a very different melody.

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Im throwing my hat into the ring on it being Juyo specialization with a Vaapad ability that costs conflict (possibly 2 abilities). While not many Jedi used this form during the Rebellion or Clone War days, it was still considered a primary style amung the Sith. Darth Bane/Vader/Maul all using or incorporating into their own styles. Honestly I hope its in the Warrior book for obvious reasons and I hope that book dives a little deeper into the Darkside of the Force.

Maybe 1 Parry, no Reflect, at least a Sense Emotion or two.

No +1 Force Rating

POSSIBLE Abilities: Balance, Overwhelm Emotions, Feral Strength for Lightsabers (which could actually feed Vaapad if it was a Frenzied Attack for Lightsabers  w/ Conflict cost), and Lethal Blows.

Juyo might even be a Form ability that allows Light and Dark side force points to be used instead of Strain for a Frenzied attack styled Vaapad.

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You modify Ataru  Replace all Parry Talents with Unpredictable Assault talents. Replace Improved Parry with Swift Flank. Replace all Reflect talents with Assured Strike talents  Replace Hawkbat Swoop with Vornskyr's Ferocity. Replace Balance with Feed on Anger.Replace Ataru Technique with Juyo Technique


Juyo Talents:


Juyo Technique

Use Cunning for light saber skill rolls instead of Brawn.


Assured Strike

For every rank in Assured Strike you can reduce the damage of your lightsaber by 2 to gain 1 automatic success on the attack roll.


Vornskyr's Ferocity (Conflict Talent)

When making a Cunning light saber attack you can add your force rating to the attack roll for every 2 dark side pips you roll you may make an additional attack against an opponent engaged with you. If you roll all light side pips you may spend 3 light side pips to gain an additional attack.


Unpredictable Assault

After making a sucessful attack you may spend 3 strain to negate 2 damage reduction plus 1 per rank in Unpredictable assault.


Swift Flank

On an opponents failed attack roll for every 2 threat or 1 despair you may immediately take an incidental maneuver to move in to engage the opponent at a maximum range of medium.


Feed on Anger (Conflict Talent)

Once per Encounter you may spend 1 destiny point to take a Feed on Anger action. Until the end of your next turn you recover 1 strain per point of conflict earned by anyone within engaged range.



For Vapaad:

Replace Feed on Anger with Tempered Agression. Replace Vornskyr's Ferocity with Feast of the Vornskyr. Replace Juyo Technique with Vapaad Technique.


Vapaad Technique

When making a lightsaber roll you may replace Brawn with Willpower.


Tempered Agression

In combat when gaining conflict from flipping force pips as an incidental you may spend 2 strain and make a hard discipline check to reduce the conflict gained by 1 point per rank in Tempered Agression.


Feast of the Vornskyr (Conflict Talent)

When making a Willpower light saber attack you can add your target's force rating to the attack roll for every 3 dark side pips you roll you may make an additional attack against an opponent engaged with you. If you roll all light side pips you may spend 2 light side pips for each additional attack.

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Apologies for dredging this back up. Now the mystic book is next and we have little to no chance of juyo in it. Are people making their own juyo up? Or just rounding away from it. 

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5 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

Why would Juyo be in the Mystic book? Warrior book is where everyone is expecting it.

That was my point. 

The thinking was that warrior was likely to be next up. Since it's not and thus juyo likely delayed...do you run a homemade version or do you avoid its use? 

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