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The current guess is that a Juyo-based specialization will make it's appearance in the eventual Warrior sourcebook.

 

As for Vaapad, the guess is either it'll be themed as a Signature Ability or it'll be a top-row talent for the Juyo spec.  Of course, since Vaapad is purely Legends, and even then was not widely spread (it was Mace Windu's personal variant on Form VII/Juyo and only taught to a select few individuals), so it's entirely possible that FFG won't offer any mechanical representation of Vaapad.

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My money is that Vaapad will be a Conflict talent in the Juyo tree. But yeah the most likely book is Warrior. 

 

Though I hope it's not a long wait on Juyo, it's one of the forms I was more interested in. 

Lol Juyo is already a conflict style in itself as it uses your aggression as it's main source of power.

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Well since none ove the other source books have added a saber form what makes everyone think Juyo will make an appearance. My favorite form Djem so which is the other variation of Form V Shien and one of 3 offense based Lightsaber forms, is only one talent in Shien Expert. I just want to know what the prevailing theory is with Juyo making an appearance.

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Well since none ove the other source books have added a saber form what makes everyone think Juyo will make an appearance. My favorite form Djem so which is the other variation of Form V Shien and one of 3 offense based Lightsaber forms, is only one talent in Shien Expert. I just want to know what the prevailing theory is with Juyo making an appearance.

Why wouldn't it? There's no evidence to suggest that it won't appear, and it being an established part of lore (canon and Legends) certainly presents more likelihood of it appearing. Of all the careers, Juyo fits best with the theme of the Warrior.

 

And, getting technical, but Shien Expert is split perfectly down the middle, one half referencing the Shien part, and the other referencing the Djem So part. It is literally two miniature specialization trees in one.

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Well since none ove the other source books have added a saber form what makes everyone think Juyo will make an appearance. My favorite form Djem so which is the other variation of Form V Shien and one of 3 offense based Lightsaber forms, is only one talent in Shien Expert. I just want to know what the prevailing theory is with Juyo making an appearance.

Re-read the lore a bit closer.

 

Djem So and Shien are two halves of Form V, focusing on melee and ranged combat respectively.  As of AotC, Anakin had focused more on the Shien aspect of Form V, which caused him trouble when facing Dooku's Form II/Makashi mastery.  In their RotS rematch, Anakin had brought his expertise of the Djem So aspect up to snuff to the point where in the RotS novelization Dooku noted that the boy was probably the finest user of Form V's Djem So aspect he'd ever encountered, and that unless he did something drastic, his Makashi-based defenses would only last so long against Anakin's Djem So onslaught.

 

The tree itself reflects Form V's dual nature, as it's deliberately split up so that the left hand side is primarily focused on melee (Djem So), while the left hand side is focused on range (Shien).  They just called it Shien Expert as it flows better of the tongue.  That Shien Expert doesn't offer Improved Parry is a deliberate balance decision, given it offers Improved Reflect (a very useful talent to have) as a Row 3 talent that's not very difficult to get to, while the other spec to offer it (Soresu Defender) offers it as a Row 5 talent instead and takes a bit more of an investment, and much the same why Niman Disciple (which offers a Force Rating talent) doesn't offer either Improved Parry or Improved Reflect.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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I do see now what you mean by the left being Djem so and right being Shein but still I could see both being one spec each, cause you really don't need to be cunning to smash someone's face. Honestly never noticed the tree was split in half.

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I do see now what you mean by the left being Djem so and right being Shein but still I could see both being one spec each, cause you really don't need to be cunning to smash someone's face. Honestly never noticed the tree was split in half.

I suspect the reason Cunning was picked for Shien Technique was Obi-Wan's line in ANH about how Anakin (the Form V poster child) was a "cunning warrior."  I know from firsthand experience courtesy of GenCon and GamerNationCon that Sam Stewart is not the sort of guy to pass up an opportunity like that.  Heck, Jay Little would have been hard pressed to pass that one up.

 

But on a more serious note, using Cunning means that rather than just brute-forcing your way through, you're also paying attention to what your opponent is doing and looking for any flaws in their defense that you can exploit.  Ahsoka is a Form V user, and she's hardly the brute force type, instead using her speed and agility to penetrate her opponents' defenses vs. Anakin/Vader's brute force approach.

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Lol Juyo is already a conflict style in itself as it uses your aggression as it's main source of power.

No tree is all Conflict talents. And while Juyo is aggressive it isn't something that would be generating Conflict just buy using any of it's many talents. One or two yeah, but the concepts behind Juyo push for a more focused form of combat. If left unchecked you can go to far, and that should be represented in key talents being Conflict talents, but not an entire spec full of them.  If Juyo were to have a talent that gave you Conflict though I think they would rightly name it Vaapad.

 

 

 

Well since none ove the other source books have added a saber form what makes everyone think Juyo will make an appearance. My favorite form Djem so which is the other variation of Form V Shien and one of 3 offense based Lightsaber forms, is only one talent in Shien Expert. I just want to know what the prevailing theory is with Juyo making an appearance. 

 

Well they've already created the other forms. I imagine that if they had created 7 careers they would have gone with all 7 of the canon combat forms. But since they went through the time and trouble to create the other 6 it is only logical to expect them to do Juyo too at some point. And as Donovan points out, what you speak of is an aspect of one of the forms already created. What we are talking about here though is a complete and separate form. It's reasonable to expect Juyo, but by that same token we don't likely expect an entire tree for say Vapaad. Much like Djem So, which is an aspect of Form V, if Vaapad makes into the game it would be rolled into an aspect of Juyo.

 

Also the game has already broadened fighting styles somewhat. The Armor from Keepers of the Peace is a lightsabre combatesque fighting style. It mixes making armor with lightsabre combat to some extent but there is now president to think that they are going to expand beyond the 6 fighting forms in the book.

 

Edit

 

 

 

I do see now what you mean by the left being Djem so and right being Shein but still I could see both being one spec each, cause you really don't need to be cunning to smash someone's face. Honestly never noticed the tree was split in half. 

 

There's one solid reason why it was likely not broken into two separate trees. Space. There are a lot of Force based concepts that they will want to cover. So they can't sink too many specs into just combat trees. If you start breaking down aspects of a main form into it's sub forms people expect a lot of those. To some extent we may see one or two of these. But overall with only 6 careers and 6 specializations for a grand total of 36 you have to ask how much time does FFG really want to devote to lightsabre combat? Obviously they want to devote some time because at present we have 7 specs that one can take to work on lightsabre combat. However I don't imagine they are going to do more than one to three more forms.

 

They have a lot of other Force concepts they'll want to bring into the game.

Edited by Kael

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I do see now what you mean by the left being Djem so and right being Shein but still I could see both being one spec each, cause you really don't need to be cunning to smash someone's face. Honestly never noticed the tree was split in half.

I suspect the reason Cunning was picked for Shien Technique was Obi-Wan's line in ANH about how Anakin (the Form V poster child) was a "cunning warrior."  I know from firsthand experience courtesy of GenCon and GamerNationCon that Sam Stewart is not the sort of guy to pass up an opportunity like that.  Heck, Jay Little would have been hard pressed to pass that one up.

 

But on a more serious note, using Cunning means that rather than just brute-forcing your way through, you're also paying attention to what your opponent is doing and looking for any flaws in their defense that you can exploit.  Ahsoka is a Form V user, and she's hardly the brute force type, instead using her speed and agility to penetrate her opponents' defenses vs. Anakin/Vader's brute force approach.

 

If you look at the Saber forms in relation to real world Martial Arts (of course you have to eliminate the Force and Blaster Deflections), what FFG has done makes a lot of sense. While many have their own take on "what Form (x) is based on" (in relation to real Martial Arts), Shien does resemble the closest to the Japanese sword arts; Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu. I guess you'd say the Djem So side of things. In those arts, there is a focus on seizing the opportune strike, very cunning. It also helps knowing that the original trilogy was based on Kendo and Fencing, and Form V was supposedly used by both Luke and Vader. 

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I do see now what you mean by the left being Djem so and right being Shein but still I could see both being one spec each, cause you really don't need to be cunning to smash someone's face. Honestly never noticed the tree was split in half.

I suspect the reason Cunning was picked for Shien Technique was Obi-Wan's line in ANH about how Anakin (the Form V poster child) was a "cunning warrior."  I know from firsthand experience courtesy of GenCon and GamerNationCon that Sam Stewart is not the sort of guy to pass up an opportunity like that.  Heck, Jay Little would have been hard pressed to pass that one up.

 

But on a more serious note, using Cunning means that rather than just brute-forcing your way through, you're also paying attention to what your opponent is doing and looking for any flaws in their defense that you can exploit.  Ahsoka is a Form V user, and she's hardly the brute force type, instead using her speed and agility to penetrate her opponents' defenses vs. Anakin/Vader's brute force approach.

 

If you look at the Saber forms in relation to real world Martial Arts (of course you have to eliminate the Force and Blaster Deflections), what FFG has done makes a lot of sense. While many have their own take on "what Form (x) is based on" (in relation to real Martial Arts), Shien does resemble the closest to the Japanese sword arts; Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu. I guess you'd say the Djem So side of things. In those arts, there is a focus on seizing the opportune strike, very cunning. It also helps knowing that the original trilogy was based on Kendo and Fencing, and Form V was supposedly used by both Luke and Vader. 

 

And Makashi is based on Fencing as Christopher Lee was a fencer. Hence the curved hilt that served his fencing knowledge. 

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Sadly Kendo and the opportune strike have nothing to do with cunning. Its all about patience and discipline. Its all about waiting for your opponent to make a mistake while slowly wearing them down. More brawn and endurance with a healthy dose of willpower.  If you want a style with cunning feints and clever traps you would be looking at Makashi which is based off more modern fencing. Even Ahsokho while agile is still utilizing brute force especially when she uses reverse grip Shien to enhance the power of her slashes at the expense of her ability to deflect forward attacks. What you would notice is most Jedi mix forms quite a bit which is why tying them to specs and stats is a horrible idea. 

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Sadly Kendo and the opportune strike have nothing to do with cunning. Its all about patience and discipline. Its all about waiting for your opponent to make a mistake while slowly wearing them down. More brawn and endurance with a healthy dose of willpower.  If you want a style with cunning feints and clever traps you would be looking at Makashi which is based off more modern fencing. Even Ahsokho while agile is still utilizing brute force especially when she uses reverse grip Shien to enhance the power of her slashes at the expense of her ability to deflect forward attacks. What you would notice is most Jedi mix forms quite a bit which is why tying them to specs and stats is a horrible idea. 

Not actually true. There can be a lot of cunning in Kendo. Waiting for your opponent to make a mistake can take forever. A clever opponent causes your opponent to make a mistake. 

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Sadly Kendo and the opportune strike have nothing to do with cunning. Its all about patience and discipline. Its all about waiting for your opponent to make a mistake while slowly wearing them down. More brawn and endurance with a healthy dose of willpower.  If you want a style with cunning feints and clever traps you would be looking at Makashi which is based off more modern fencing. Even Ahsokho while agile is still utilizing brute force especially when she uses reverse grip Shien to enhance the power of her slashes at the expense of her ability to deflect forward attacks. What you would notice is most Jedi mix forms quite a bit which is why tying them to specs and stats is a horrible idea. 

Not actually true. There can be a lot of cunning in Kendo. Waiting for your opponent to make a mistake can take forever. A clever opponent causes your opponent to make a mistake. 

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

 

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Sadly Kendo and the opportune strike have nothing to do with cunning. Its all about patience and discipline. Its all about waiting for your opponent to make a mistake while slowly wearing them down. More brawn and endurance with a healthy dose of willpower.  If you want a style with cunning feints and clever traps you would be looking at Makashi which is based off more modern fencing. Even Ahsokho while agile is still utilizing brute force especially when she uses reverse grip Shien to enhance the power of her slashes at the expense of her ability to deflect forward attacks. What you would notice is most Jedi mix forms quite a bit which is why tying them to specs and stats is a horrible idea. 

Not actually true. There can be a lot of cunning in Kendo. Waiting for your opponent to make a mistake can take forever. A clever opponent causes your opponent to make a mistake. 

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

 

 

Classic example of this is the time Musashi was challenged to a duel and he said ok on that island over there tomorrow morning. He showed up very late which made his opponent very angry. They got in the boat and rowed over and when they got there his opponent leaped out of the boat and ran ashore and got ready. Musashi simply rowed away leaving his opponent on the island. That is everything cunning. He defeated his opponent with out even needing to swing a sword. His opponnt did all the work for him. So yes kendo has cunning in it. 

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Once again you are mistaking Kenjutsu with Kendo. They are not the same thing. What further complicates this is you don't seem to get that Kenjutsu is hundreds if not thousands of different schools of sword and not a single entity like Kendo.

Musashi was around in a time long before Kendo even existed. Your story proves my point entirely Musashi was a cunning warrior the other dude who also used a form of Kenjutsu wasn't. In order to prove your point all users would have to be cunning. Darth Vader not so much cunning as pure brute force.

 

What your claiming is that modern day foil is the same as La Verdadera Destreza.

They are about as similar as moonshine and champagne.

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And yet in kendo you still can use cunning to win. All about getting the other guy to make a strike first. Making the other guy lose to you. Kendo is no where near as monolithic as you claim. And no where near all brute strength as you claim. 

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To be perfectly honest Cunning can apply to any martial art form. You can build a case for pretty much every form to involve X trait. Trying to break a fighting form down to "this one represents cunning and this one represents intelligence" is reductive in the extreme and is only viable in terms of discussion for the rpg mechanics. Once we move from rpg mechanics to how people use real world martial arts that level of simplicity flies out the window. 

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To be perfectly honest Cunning can apply to any martial art form. You can build a case for pretty much every form to involve X trait. Trying to break a fighting form down to "this one represents cunning and this one represents intelligence" is reductive in the extreme and is only viable in terms of discussion for the rpg mechanics. Once we move from rpg mechanics to how people use real world martial arts that level of simplicity flies out the window. 

It is pretty clear that in the clone wars era most masters have multiple forms... 

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I have a feeling that they could possibly have the Juyo Tree divided kinda like the Shien Expert with one side being just the raw Juyo that has conflict talents and then the other side being Vaapad without conflict talents.

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