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Mon Karren Thoughts

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Because it's good to double tap?  Gunnery teams is great and all (some of you guys treat it like it's gospel), but I wouldn't necessarily say it's a slam dunk upgrade for this ship (or any other). See the Steel Squadron Article about Gunnery Teams.  (For what it's worth, I also like High Capacity Ion Turbines)

  

Mon Karren

Gunnery Team

SW-7

Medium Range monster shots. 4 damage pre-brace minimum and the Reds are gravy on top of it. All for 116 points.

Mothma MC30s, CR90s, Raiders, Nebs cant evade. Glads and medium ships wont be redirecting.

Irony.

 

Yes it is.  I saw that right after I posted this :-)   Did you have a change-of-heart / conversion?

Far from it. Gunnery Teams are a scurge upon the world that give us bad flying habits. And yes, I would rather double arc than shoot two things.

But that doesn't mean it is a bad upgrade, or that it doesn't have a place on a ship. Just like taking Rieekan doesnt mean I am going to throw my ships into certain death. I *can* shoot twice just like I *can* make one of my ships a sacrificial blocker. It gives me options but doesn't dictate my strategy. I like havong options rather than putting my fleet on autopilot.

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Alright, we need actual calculations over here. Fortunately, I spent about 3 hours late one night calculating this in a planned, but unused, response to someone using similar arguments against using MK + X17 (Warning: lots of long evaluations):

 

Let's do semi-average damage rolls on the strongest shield facing of each ship at mid-range (and for simplicity, an evade reroll gives -1 damage taken), say 4 damage no accuracy, 4 damage accuracy, 5 damage no accuracy, 5 damage accuracy, 6 damage no accuracy, and 6 damage accuracy, and see how each combination of upgrades affects the outcome.

 

Note: Accuracy/Intel Officer prioritizes defense tokens in this order: Scatter, Brace, Redirect, Evade, Contain.

GR75/Goz:

4, 5, 6 damage, no accuracy:

Scatters every time, regardless of upgrades. With Intel Officer, scatter is now gone.

4 damage with accuracy:

Evade reduces damage by 1, keeping the target alive regardless of upgrade combo. With Intel Officer, scatter is now gone.

5, 6 damage with accuracy:

Target is dead regardless of upgrades.

Conclusion: Intel Officer takes the cake here without accuracies, but otherwise all upgrades are useless here.

CR90:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 3, redirect causes remaining damage to be absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect causes damage to be absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Only 3 damage is absorbed by shields, 1 goes to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

-5 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, redirect causes remaining damage to be absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: evade reduces damage to 4, redirect causes 3 damage to be absorbed by shields. 1 damage to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields. 1 damage to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Only 3 damage is absorbed by shields, 2 goes to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

-6 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 5, redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields. 1 damage to the hull.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: evade reduces damage to 5, redirect causes 3 damage to be absorbed by shields. 2 damage to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields. 2 damage to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Only 3 damage is absorbed by shields, 3 goes to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 3, shields absorb 2 damage, 1 damage to the hull.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren only: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as no upgrades.

5 damage with accuracy:

+ 1 damage to the hull, otherwise same as 4 w/accuracy.

6 damage with accuracy:

+ 1 damage to the hull, otherwise same as 4 w/accuracy.

Conclusion:

Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer is most effective in dealing more damage to the hull with rolls with no accuracies. Otherwise, with a natural accuracy roll, the upgrades have no effect. (However, 7 damage (above average) with no accuracies means a dead CR90).

 

Neb-b:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: brace reduces damage to 2, evade reroll makes it 1, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

-5 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren Only.

-6 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 3, evade reduces it to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: Same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren only: Brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: 2nd brace reduces damage to 2, evade reduces it to 1, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: 2nd brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, 2nd brace reduces it to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: 2nd brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: 2nd brace reduces damage to 3, evade reduces it to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: 2nd brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

Conclusion: More damage goes through with Mon Karren, Intel Officer has an easier time removing defense tokens with an accuracy, X17 is less than useless.

 

MC30:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 3, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren only: redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

-5 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 4, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Redirect causes 4 damage to go to shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17.

-6 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 5, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: evade reroll reduces it to 5, redirect makes 4 absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 3, 2nd redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd redirect is gone. (Not so with ECM)

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: 2nd redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd redirect is gone. (Not so with ECM)

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 4, 2nd redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd redirect is gone. (Not so with ECM)

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: 2nd redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd redirect is gone. (Not so with ECM)

--Mon Karren + X17: 2nd redirect causes 4 damage absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but 2nd redirect is gone (not so with ECM).

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 5, 2nd redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd redirect is gone. (not so with ECM)

--X17 only: redirect makes 4 damage absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but 2nd redirect is gone. (not so with ECM)

--Mon Karren only: 2nd redirect causes all damage to be absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd redirect is gone. (not so with ECM)

--Mon Karren + X17: 2nd redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 2 goes to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but 2nd redirect is gone (not so with ECM).

Conclusion: Mon Karren + X17 is the clear winner with or without accuracies or Intel Officer. However, Admonition would ensure that no damage would go to the hull at the cost of defense tokens. While this might make it seem like the Mon Karren + X17 is useless versus Admonition, the Admonition would still be discarding defense tokens to prevent hull damage. So, for this case, the X17 is 6 points invested for opening up for (possible, if I’m not dying or about to die) future attacks by either the Mon Karren or another ship. (This goes out the window if Lando is involved).

 

AFMKII:

-4 damage, no accuracy (ECM with accuracy):

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, Evade reduces it to 1, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-5 Damage, no accuracy (ECM + Accuracy):

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-6 damage, no accuracy (ECM + Accuracy):

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 3, evade reduces it to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: Same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields, redirect or not.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone if used.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: damage absorbed by shields (redirect use or not).

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone if used.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, absorbed by shields (redirect use or not).

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone if used.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect causes all damage to be absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 5, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: redirect causes all damage to be absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: redirect causes 5 damage to be absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

Conclusion: This is where you said that the Mon Karren becomes an 8 point investment for 1 point of damage, and I see it. Here, I am no longer concerned about the X17 and Intel Officer becoming redundant to the Mon Karren, but rather the Mon Karren becoming redundant to X17 and Intel Officer, the latter of which comes out on top as a threat to the ‘best’ defense token used. X17, on the other hand, becomes more of a set up for future attacks by other ships, assuming there are other ships unactivated that will reach the AFMKII’s front arc.

 

MC80 Liberty:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--All options: brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

-5 Damage, no accuracy:

--All options: brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

-6 damage, no accuracy:

--All options: Brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: 2nd brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

5/6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: 2nd brace reduces it to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

Conclusion:

Yeah, the Liberty’s strongest shield is strong, but we can’t forget that this is a scenario specifically taking my current preferred offensive Liberty set up and going at the strongest shield. This is not taking into account positioning and maneuvering to ensure that the Liberty has a good shot at a weak shield, nor is it taking into account really lucky rolls, like 9 damage and two accuracies. Thus, in this specific scenario, X17 and Mon Karren are useless.

 

MC80 Home One:

-4 damage, no accuracy (ECM with accuracy):

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

-5/6 Damage, no accuracy (ECM + Accuracy):

--No upgrades: brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

4 damage with accuracy:

--All Options: absorbed by shields, redirect or not.

-5 damage with accuracy:

--All Options: Redirect use makes it absorbed by shields.

-6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as no upgrades.

--X17 only: Redirect makes 5 damage absorbed by shields, 1 goes to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as X17 only.

Conclusion: Here yet again the Mon Karren title appears redundant to X17 and Intel Officer, and here each of those only work with or without a single Accuracy respectively (Granted an additional accuracy would make both work).

Edited by Arcanis161

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Raider:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, Evade reduces it to 1, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-5 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 3, 2 absorbed by shields, one to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-6 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 3, evade reduces it to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: Same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Brace reduces damage to 3, 2 absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

4 damage with accuracy:

--All options: evade reduces damage to 3, 2 absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

5 damage with accuracy:

--All options: same as 4, but +1 damage to hull

6 damage with accuracy:

--All Options: same as 5, but +1 damage to hull

Conclusion: Mon Karren is only useful for large damage without an accuracy, X17 is useless, and Intel Officer can only discard the brace if an accuracy isn’t used. Raiders be fragile.

 

GSD:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, Evade reduces it to 1, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-5 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-6 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 3, evade reduces it to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: Same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields, redirect or not.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone if used.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone if used.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect causes all damage to be absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Redirect cases 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 5, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: redirect causes 5 damage to be absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

Conclusion: Mon Karren is 8 points for 1 damage, X17 is 6 points for 1 damage. Now, does this open the GSD/Demo up for a lot more punishment (perhaps a strike from the Salvation?), yes. But again, that follow up, or a plan for a future follow up has to be there.

 

VSD:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

-5/6 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

4 damage with accuracy:

--All options: Redirect causes all damage to be absorbed by shields.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: Redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as no upgrades.

--X17 only: Redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as X17 only.

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes it all absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: Redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as X17 only.

Conclusion: Intel Officer just doesn’t work well with redundant tokens without an extra accuracy. X17 does ok here, but Mon Karren again is 8 points for 1 damage if that.

 

Interdictor:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2 absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

-5/6 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as intel officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone if used.

--X17 only: redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as X17 + Intel Officer.

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes 5 absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: redirect makes 4 absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer + X17.

Conclusion: Mon Karren doesn’t seem to do anything beyond maybe letting a crit through if one is rolled. I don’t know about you, but crits are more medium value to me, not sure I’d spend 8 points for one.

 

ISD:

-4 damage, no accuracy (ECM with accuracy):

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

-5/6 Damage, no accuracy (ECM + Accuracy):

--No upgrades: brace reduces damage to 3, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Intel Officer only.

4 damage with accuracy:

--All Options: absorbed by shields, redirect or not.

-5 damage with accuracy:

--All Options: Redirect use makes it absorbed by shields.

-6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as no upgrades.

--X17 only: Redirect makes 5 damage absorbed by shields, 1 goes to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as X17 only.

Conclusion: Exactly the same as with the Home One, Mon Karren useless and redundant.

 

Now then, this is all looking VERY bad for the Mon Karren and X17 as a whole, on average each being only worth 1-2 damage points if that in an initial strike. However, before I throw in the towel, let’s do one more experiment. How about we see what happens if, say, we get a good hit off of Salvation at a key area on a GSD or AFMKII (greatest variety of Defense tokens = best damage reduction) and my Liberty is at Medium range away from a (front) shield with 1 point left (all other shields are at max). Let’s see what happens

GSD:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, Evade reduces it to 1, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 2, 1 to the shield, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-5 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, brace reduces damage to 2, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 3, 1 absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-6 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 3, evade reduces it to 2, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: Same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Brace reduces damage to 3, 1 absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 3, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone if used.

--X17 only: evade reduces damage to 3, redirect makes 2 to the shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: redirect makes 3 damage absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: redirect makes 2 damage absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, redirect makes 3 absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone if used.

--X17 only: evade reduces damage to 4, redirect makes 2 absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect causes 3 damage to be absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Redirect cases 2 damage to be absorbed by shields, 3 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 5, redirect makes 3 absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: evade reduces damage to 5, redirect causes 2 damage to be absorbed by shields, 3 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: redirect causes 3 damage to be absorbed by shields, 3 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: redirect causes 2 damage to be absorbed by shields, 4 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

 

Now the AFMKII:

-4 damage, no accuracy (ECM with accuracy):

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, Evade reduces it to 1, absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace would reduce damage to 2, 1 absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull, but a redirect would mean all to shields, 0 to hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone if used, otherwise redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only (brace would be used in this case).

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-5 Damage, no accuracy (ECM + Accuracy):

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, brace reduces damage to 2, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: brace would reduce damage to 3, 1 absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull, but a redirect means 4 to shields, 1 to hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone if used, otherwise redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only (brace is used in this case).

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-6 damage, no accuracy (ECM + Accuracy):

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 3, evade reduces it to 2, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: Same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Brace reduces damage to 3, 1 absorbed by shields, 2 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but brace is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 3, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: Evade reduces damage to 3, redirect makes 2 to shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: redirect makes the damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: redirect makes 2 to the shields, 2 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 4, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: evade reduces damage to 4, redirect makes 2 to the shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: redirect causes 2 damage to be absorbed by shields, 3 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reduces damage to 5, redirect makes 4 absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but redirect is gone.

--X17 only: evade reduces damage to 5, redirect makes 2 to the shields, 3 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: redirect causes 4 damage to be absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren + X17: redirect causes 2 damage to be absorbed by shields, 4 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but redirect is gone.

 

…an MC30:

-4 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 3, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: evade makes it 3, redirect means 2 to shields, 1 to hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Redirect means 2 to shields, 2 to hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as X17 only.

-5 Damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 4, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: evade makes it 4, redirect means 2 to shields, 2 to hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren only: Redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Redirect causes 2 damage to go to shields, 3 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17.

-6 damage, no accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 5, redirect makes 4 absorbed by shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: evade reroll reduces it to 5, redirect makes 2 absorbed by shields, 3 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Redirect causes 2 damage to be absorbed by shields, 4 to the hull (dead!).

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 3, 2nd redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd redirect is gone. (Not so with ECM)

--X17 only: evade makes it 3, redirect makes 2 to shields, 1 to hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but 2nd redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: 2nd redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd redirect is gone. (Not so with ECM)

--Mon Karren + X17: Redirect means 2 damage to shields, 2 to hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but 2nd redirect is gone.

5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 4, 2nd redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd redirect is gone. (Not so with ECM)

--X17 only: evade makes it 4, 2nd redirect makes 2 to shields, 2 to hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but 2nd redirect is gone.

--Mon Karren only: 2nd redirect makes all damage absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd redirect is gone. (Not so with ECM)

--Mon Karren + X17: 2nd redirect causes 2 damage absorbed by shields, 3 to the hull.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but 2nd redirect is gone (not so with ECM).

6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: evade reroll reduces it to 5, 2nd redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but 2nd redirect is gone. (not so with ECM)

--X17 only: redirect makes 2 damage absorbed by shields, 3 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but 2nd redirect is gone. (not so with ECM)

--Mon Karren only: 2nd redirect causes all damage to be absorbed by shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but 2nd redirect is gone. (not so with ECM)

--Mon Karren + X17: 2nd redirect causes 2 damage to be absorbed by shields, 4 goes to the hull (dead!).

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but 2nd redirect is gone (not so with ECM).

 

And as added fun, let’s do a Home One too, same rules apply.

-4 damage, no accuracy (ECM with accuracy):

--No upgrades: Brace reduces damage to 2, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: same as no upgrades.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as Intel Officer only.

--Mon Karren only: Brace reduces damage to 2, 1 to shields, 1 to hull, but a redirect means all to shields.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only, but Brace is gone if used.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren Only (brace is used in this case).

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-5/6 Damage, no accuracy (ECM + Accuracy):

--No upgrades: brace reduces damage to 3, redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above, but brace is gone.

--X17 only: Brace reduces damage to 3, redirect makes 2 to shields, 1 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only, but Brace is gone.

--Mon Karren only: brace reduces damage to 3, 1 to shield, 2 to hull, but a redirect would mean all to shields(5) or just 1 to hull (6).

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only (Brace is used in this case).

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + X17, but Brace is gone.

4 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: redirect makes 2 to shields, 2 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as X17 only.

-5 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes it absorbed by shields.

--Intel Officer only: same as above.

--X17 only: redirect makes 2 to shields, 3 to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17: Same as Mon Karren only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as Mon Karren + Intel Officer.

-6 damage with accuracy:

--No upgrades: redirect makes 5 absorbed by shields, 1 to hull.

--Intel Officer only: same as no upgrades.

--X17 only: Redirect makes 2 damage absorbed by shields, 4 goes to the hull.

--Intel Officer + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren only: same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + Intel Officer: Same as no upgrades.

--Mon Karren + X17: same as X17 only.

--Mon Karren + X17 + Intel Officer: Same as X17 only.

Edited by Arcanis161

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So, overall conclusion/TL;DR: The combo does not do much against certain ships, like the Raider and the Neb-b. It also is not good against the ISD, MC80 Home one, the Liberty, VSD or the Interdictor, scoring 1-2 points more damage at most...

 

against FRESH ships.

 

What I have, hopefully, demonstrated is what I’ve seen the combo do against other ships and lightly damaged ships. It isn’t the mass blaster that the Admonition is, nor have I found it to be a mega glass cannon that kills fresh ships outright. What it does do, however, is kill ships faster. Intel Officer removes a key defense token (granted, it might be better on another ship). Mon Karren and X17 are meant to concentrate damage (and have a bit of a wider spread of what the Mon Karren can kill).

Edited by Arcanis161

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Sooooooo

That h9 x17 combo I suggested pages back....?

What I don't like about H9's is the damage cost. I absolutely hate how I have to turn a hit into an accuracy. It's great on ships like the MC30 which don't have a very good chance to roll an accuracy at all but on the big ships like the Liberty I have trouble seeing the point since you are more than likely to roll an accuracy anyway.

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I'm sticking with Mon Karren title alone.  (Maybe add an armament if you have the points but that's a no brainer).

 

Scenario 1 - You are at Long Range - You are only going to have an average of 5 red dice.  (Can be higher but can also be lower depending on which version you take and if you use Spinal or Concentarte Fire).  5 Red Dice at Long Range is nice, but it's really not the end of the world if they end up bracing your 5 damage down to 3 and taking it to shields.  Really it's not that big a deal.  Especially if you are shooting first.  See, if you shoot LAST then they are likely only going to have 1 green defense token left anyhow, so they'd only be using ONE regardless (possibly).  Also, XI7's aren't that big a deal at long range either because they can also use evades at that range.   You aren't ONLY facing Star Destroyers.  MC-30s will do better against a ship with XI7 and an accuracy.  They'll cancel your double hit, maybe cancel TWO dice, and then redirect 1 of the remaining damage.  They may suffer nothing.  At Long Range - Mon Karren Title wins - Mostly because the defender has far more options and would be more likely to spend 2 or 3 tokens. 

 

Scenario 2 - Medium Range - Well now you've got a fistful of blue dice as well.  Chances are you are going to get that accuracy you wanted for free.  They can still potentially force a reroll (or cancel TWO dice if Mon Mothma and MC30 titles), so Mon Karren title is still solid here against any ship with evades or contain. 

 

Scenario 3 - Close range - Same as above, but now nobody is cancelling double dice, though you may have to reroll a few depending on if there is an Interdictor present.  Still likely to get an accuracy, but the advantage here isn't as pronounced. 

 

The idea though, is that you go with Scenario 1, where the Mon Karren advantage is at it's highest.  You are most likely to get some damage through.   Then with your SECOND attack, (some other ship), you attack that same enemy ship, which is now weaker and use THAT ship to have the XI7, IO, Accuracy, whatever.  Now that section that only has 1 or 2 shields left is getting fully punched through - and if your 3rd ship ALSO has the same setup, you might end up finishing that Star Destroyer on a single round of shooting.  

 

 

 Summary - Mon Karren is your best opening shot at long range.  Put the upgrades on your other ships that will have BETTER synergy with it, such as Salvation. 

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If you have

 

XI7 Spinals Leading shots and optional Intel officer

 

You roll  6 dmg and 1,5 accuracy on avarge, just in case you have leading shots

 

Against Mc30: Accuracy/Intel evades (you may not need to use intel as you might get 2 acc half of the time), he can reidrect 1 dmg. Condireing you roll 1 acc and have no intel  only thing MonKaren would do is force him to chose if he wants to evade or use redirect for 1 dmg.

 

Against Vsd: no use for Mon Karen at all as long as you have 1 accuracy

 

Against Assault frigate: If you have 1 accuracy and no Intel Mon Karen can only force him to chose between using unblocked token and reidrecting for 1 dmg.

 

Against ISD: Acc/ the brace and contain (optionally use intel if you have it, it would help if he has ecm). Defender is left with only 1 resonable chocie anyway so Mon Karen is again almost useless.

 

 

Best way to make Karen work?

With Sw7 and Spinals+ cf command you have ensured 5 blue dmg + 3 avarge red dmg.  You can drop Spinals to save points, post brace dmg wont go down and you lose only 0,75 on avarge pre brace. But you give enemy choice, its a hard choice but i prefer not to give them choice at all.

Edited by Microscop

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Ok everyone needs to stop until arcanis posts. Dude reserved three spots, so you know its going to be freaking epic.

I'm really looking for a mic drop moment here.

No pressure.

 

The mic drop came and so did I.

 

10/10 did not disappoint.

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To cool mine, Tirion and heros argument:

We traditionally have three defence token dodging build types. Accuracies, Intel officers and squadrons. For any to work effectively the entire fleet needs to follow the philosophy.

The problem with Mon Karren is it doesnt fall into these categories making it difficult to build a fleet around.

Potentially it synergises best with death by papercuts, but I dont immediately see the build for this. It sort of suggests Mon Karrens best role is in bodyguarding a carrier fleet....

Odd conclusion.

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So pray for accuracy?  God forbid you never roll one.

You can reroll 3 blues and blank reds with leading shots. Also you may have Intel officer. Thats rolling 7 blues 5 reds on avarge including intial roll and rerolls. You may never roll one but is this rare occurance worth spending more points? Real tanks have weakpoints and downsides too, to save weight and money, and yes you pray you will not get hit there but if its low enough chance its worth cutting the costs.

Edited by Microscop

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So pray for accuracy?  God forbid you never roll one.

You can reroll 3 blues and blank reds with leading shots. Also you may have Intel officer. Thats rolling 7 blues 5 reds on avarge including intial roll and rerolls. You may never roll one but is this rare occurance worth spending more points? Real tanks have weakpoints and downsides too, to save weight and money, and yes you pray you will not get hit there but if its low enough chance its worth cutting the costs.

 

 

So what upgrades are you equipping your Liberty in the above scenario?

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Sorry but those builds are just dumb. I cant help but shake my head at how people try to build Mon Karren.

 

If you have XI7 you need either 1 acc or Intel officer to hit the brace. Mon Karen is almost useless in this situation, well it will prevent reidrecting 1 point of dmg only if the defender has and decides to use contain. That costs you 8 points.

 

If you shoot something smalelr like a Crovette XI7 the redurect acc/intel evade, if 1 evade is left unblocked defender can use it anyway and Mon Karen does nothing again.

 

With every other upgrade restricting use of defense tokens MonKaren loses value. In some rare cases it may do soooomething but remember that you pay 8 points for it on top of other upgrades,

Its called a "No win situation". 

 

If you Don't get an Accuracy you can still Intel the Brace forcing a hard decision between the Brace or the weakened Redirect. 

 

You can try the same with HTT's but then you are allowing the use of multiple tokens which can be a bad thing for things like Devastator.

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Sorry but those builds are just dumb. I cant help but shake my head at how people try to build Mon Karren.

 

If you have XI7 you need either 1 acc or Intel officer to hit the brace. Mon Karen is almost useless in this situation, well it will prevent reidrecting 1 point of dmg only if the defender has and decides to use contain. That costs you 8 points.

 

If you shoot something smalelr like a Crovette XI7 the redurect acc/intel evade, if 1 evade is left unblocked defender can use it anyway and Mon Karen does nothing again.

 

With every other upgrade restricting use of defense tokens MonKaren loses value. In some rare cases it may do soooomething but remember that you pay 8 points for it on top of other upgrades,

I'm not sure you are quite running the scenarios back and forth.

 

1. Intel Officer won't stop the brace. Intel Officer works most efficiently when you can use a smaller hit to drop the toekn but it requires a deft hand since too small of a hit and they won;t use the brace and too big and they'll use it anyway. Putting Intel Officer on the big ships is good, no argument from me, but in my experience it''s been a 50/50 where the Intel Officer has been useful since with my style of play by the time the MC80 shoots it doesn't matter if they brace or not, its a killshot.

 

2. In your contain example run your scenarios to completion with and without MK. If you opponent uses contain you push more damage though to the same hull facing effectively making MK a cheaper spinal armament. If they use the redirect they are only saving them self from 1 additional damage from the hull zone you targeted. Mon Karren is insurance against not rolling an accuracy. It almost operates like a pseudo accuracy.

 

3. Even against a corvette, MK still let's you push one more damage onto the hull zone since they have to either redirect or evade. One more damage point on a corvette is a big deal.

 

As stated before, The MK/XI7 combo lets you push at least 1 more damage against the majority of targets out there. 8 points might seems a little expensive for another point of damage but that is going rate, ala Spinal Armaments are 9 and EA is 10.

 

MK is good just not OP like everyone thought when they first saw it. NOW MK and HTT is pretty worthless...

 

 

Not just that, but in subsequent rounds of combat, missing a XI7 means that your opponent will suffer much less damage.

 

Damage example:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-making-liberty-work.html

 

Example #1 - Shooting at ISDs or MC80s with Mon Karren and XI7s.
Round #1 - Let's say you roll 8 damage.  Regardless of ECM or accuracy, you IO the Brace.  He has no choice but to Brace and take 4 damage directly to shields.  If you did 9 damage and there was a crit, not only would he be unable to Redirect, but he would also take the crit because he can't Contain.
Round #2 - Second round of combat without the Brace available.  Let's say you make the same roll.  He can only choose to Redirect or Contain, but since Redirect will only negate one damage because of XI7s, he wisely chooses to Contain, but eats 8 damage directly to hull.  Since you IO'd the Contain, it is gone for the rest of the game.
 
If you don't buy XI7s with Mon Karren when shooting at a ISD-II with Redirect, GL doing solid second round damage before he MAULS you in return.  You're literally looking at doing near or full damage to hull vs. doing half that because of Redirect.  On a ship that's absolutely meant to do damage, and doesn't have much survivalbility once it does enter equal-brawl range of the bigger ships, you better be making every shot count.

 

*shudders* I actually agree with this. . . why is there a chill running down my spine. . . 

 

 

 

Xi7's force an issue that would not be there otherwise by cutting into your opponent harder than they expected. Now they have to face a hard decision, do they try and blast through Mon Karren which they might not be able to do or do they try something else. Otherwise they are in trouble.

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Hi all,

 

Been lucky enough to get a couple of wave 3/4 games lately and have been trying out the Mc80 Liberty.

Initially I thought it was going to be a poor ship, under achieving for its cost, my last few games have proved me wrong on that count (happily, I might add).

 

I've been running this setup so far:

 

Mc80 Star Cruiser

Mon Karren

Intel officer

Engine Techs

Gunnery team

SW-7 Ion batteries

XI7 turbolasers

 

Along with Madine this thing is supremely maneuverable dealing an average of 5 - 7 damage per shot which is very difficult to mitigate.

 

But i'm wondering about the Mon Karren title, it seems pretty redundant alongside XI7s.  If the target has a brace it's likely to use it and with XI7s do I really care if they can redirect 1 damage as well?  IS it worth 8 points to stop them doing that? Do I really care at long range if an Mc30 evades 1 dice and then redirects 1 damage?

 

I'm not saying it's a bad title it has loads of uses on other setups but on this one, with XI7s I just don't know if it's worth it?

 

I'm curious as well what kind of setups people have had success with the title in?

Xi7's are worth it against a number of ships,  if they don't have ecm ready all you need is one acc for the brace or evade, and the only options they have are  redirect 1 point.    It's effects are mitigated a bit by mon karren, but if you hit the acc it's still very useful, worth the six.

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So pray for accuracy?  God forbid you never roll one.

3 Mon Karren shots against a Flotilla, not one accuracy, with Toryn Farr AND a Con Fire token for all 3 shots due to comms net. . . It happens and is ANNOYING! Mind you it was from a Spinal Armament Star Cruiser.

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I'd never run XI7 and MK. Wasted XI7. MK is for running with a cast of MC30s with ACMs.

Then you are taking away a tactical possibility for yourself. 

 

The issue is that you are not considering the long term effects. What if you have that MC30 with ACM's come in and Intel Officer the brace with a 7 damage attack. They brace or they dont but they are going to be taking a beating they cant afford. From there Mon Karren just allows you to limit the amount of tokens used, if you have Xi7's you immediately limit the usefulness of the Redirect as an option. 

 

Think on this, if you attack at long range and hit for lets say 3 damage (on 4 red dice this is about accurate), they can not either brace down to 2 (if they are taking more attacks they might not want to) OR they can redirect just a single point of damage letting you push 2 into the zone you want.

 

Viability is there.

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