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Marauder1983

Interaction: thruster fissure with speed modifying effects

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Tonight we ran into this situation

Mon Karren suffered the crit

Thruster Fissure - Ship - when you change your speed by one or more, suffer one damage

I was constantly using tractor beams and Konstantine to modify his ships seed. Our table side ruling was that due to the effects of konstantine and tractor beams acting as speed modifications to the speed dial of the ship it did in fact trigger the effects of thruster fissure because I was forcing my opponent to change his speed. Therefor each turn I was able to force two hull damage by upping his speed with konstantine (1 damage) and then reducing it with tractor beams (1 damage).

I think this might be a rules question worthy inquiry. Thoughts?

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Its perfectly legitimate.  if you change speed, you take the damage - and those cards force yo uto change speed.

 

 

.  The Phyloms and Konstantine (if you do them at their correct and appropriate times, which is first Slow Down during your Activation, and then Speed up at the Status Phase)....

 

 

 

But remember.  Its just Damage.  Not Damage Cards.

 

As 1 point of Damage, the MC80 player can place that one damage on any hull zone, and this can include a hull zone with Shields........

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I would say the opponent is making the change and not you. So no dmg.

 

Not quite.

The Opponent makes you do the change.

 

Because the opponent does not get to touch your Ship, or your Dial, or your Tokens :D

 

Are you sure that it works that way with Admiral Konstantine? I agree with the Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams, as it reads (I added the bold):

"When you activate, you may exhaust this card to choose 1 enemy ship of your size class or smaller at distance 1-5. That ship must spend a *NAV* token or reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of 1."

To me, this reads as the Tractor-player makes the other player chance his speed (as in "you" have been forced to change your speed, as you mentioned).

 

However, Admiral Konstantine reads (I added the bold):

"At the start of each Status Phase, for each enemy ship at distance 1-5 of at least 2 friendly medium or large ships, you may increase or decrease that enemy ship's speed by 1 to a minimum of speed 1."

Here, it's worded as the Konstantine-player gets to change the speed, and not force the other player to change their speed.

 

I'm not convinced it's one way of the other, but if you have some backup for either scenario, I would like to hear it :)

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And to throw in a few more into the mix, what about temporary reductions in speed (G-8 and overlapping other ships).  How much damage is suffered then?

 

0, 1 or 2?

Edited by Flengin

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I would say the opponent is making the change and not you. So no dmg.

 

Not quite.

The Opponent makes you do the change.

 

Because the opponent does not get to touch your Ship, or your Dial, or your Tokens :D

 

Are you sure that it works that way with Admiral Konstantine? I agree with the Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams, as it reads (I added the bold):

"When you activate, you may exhaust this card to choose 1 enemy ship of your size class or smaller at distance 1-5. That ship must spend a *NAV* token or reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of 1."

To me, this reads as the Tractor-player makes the other player chance his speed (as in "you" have been forced to change your speed, as you mentioned).

 

However, Admiral Konstantine reads (I added the bold):

"At the start of each Status Phase, for each enemy ship at distance 1-5 of at least 2 friendly medium or large ships, you may increase or decrease that enemy ship's speed by 1 to a minimum of speed 1."

Here, it's worded as the Konstantine-player gets to change the speed, and not force the other player to change their speed.

 

I'm not convinced it's one way of the other, but if you have some backup for either scenario, I would like to hear it :)

 

Thanks, exactly what I thought to. While tractor beam forces the opponent to change speed, Konstantine does the speed change himself.

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And to throw in a few more into the mix, what about temporary reductions in speed (G-8 and overlapping other ships).  How much damage is suffered then?

 

0, 1 or 2?

 

 

Backup advice, eh.  Its an OLD one, but I've got it...  This was before Phyloms were a thing - but note I thought ahead and asked about a critical card that specifically states your opponent changes your speed....

 

 

Hello, Paul,

 
Thank you for your patience. In response to your question:
 

 Rules Question:

In regards to the critical card "Thruster Fissure", what is a speed change?  Is it only when the Speed Dial itself is changed, or are things like Rams included?  What about the critical Card 'comms noise' when your enemy reduces your speed?. .

 
The critical card will do damage whenever the speed dial is changed for any reason as that is how speed changes are tracked on a ship.
 
Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

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And to throw in a few more into the mix, what about temporary reductions in speed (G-8 and overlapping other ships).  How much damage is suffered then?

 

0, 1 or 2?

 

 

Backup advice, eh.  Its an OLD one, but I've got it...  This was before Phyloms were a thing - but note I thought ahead and asked about a critical card that specifically states your opponent changes your speed....

 

 

Hello, Paul,

 
Thank you for your patience. In response to your question:
 

 Rules Question:

In regards to the critical card "Thruster Fissure", what is a speed change?  Is it only when the Speed Dial itself is changed, or are things like Rams included?  What about the critical Card 'comms noise' when your enemy reduces your speed?. .

 
The critical card will do damage whenever the speed dial is changed for any reason as that is how speed changes are tracked on a ship.
 
Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

 

Interesting! I'm a little bit surprised that isn't part of the official FAQ, since we now have several Speed-altering effects (of which at least two of them refers to different people changing the speed). It would also be interesting to see if they might have changed their mind about this (which we all know they have done in the past), especially since it was written before the Phylon Tractor beam (and therefore also before every other offensive speed-changing upgrade). It just feels a little bit strange that this ruling was the intention, when they word the two cards (Tractor beam and Konstantine) so differently.

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Enough People Don't Ask, maybe?

It is a Frequently asked questions document, after all.

 

 

 

But the portion of it that is pertinent - is indeed about the Critical Card, which says your enemy can reduce your speed by 1, and it works...

 

So the take away is:

If you Change your Speed - Thruster Fissure.

If your enemy Changes your Speed - Thruster Fissure.

 

 

And speed is determined by the Speed Dial.

 

Which is half of the trouble we had with G8s...  being Speed vs Speed of the Maneuver (and it appears that Speed of the Maneuver was intent there, as per GenCon Interview)

Edited by Drasnighta

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And perhaps, thinking a second, as to why it hasn't been part of it so far:


You only have a 2/52 chance of drawing Thruster Fissure out of a Deck (Dodonna shenanigans not withstanding).

 

On top of that, Phyloms have hardly been a common card up until now.  The interaction was simply not something that came up often...  (I had to have Phyloms in my Fleet, and be using them and be having my opponent draw Thruster Fissure)

 

And nothing will have been written about Konstantine, or including, or considering Konstantine in a FAQ documen, for at least the next...  18 days or so,.

Edited by Drasnighta

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Enough People Don't Ask, maybe?

It is a Frequently asked questions document, after all.

 

 

 

But the portion of it that is pertinent - is indeed about the Critical Card, which says your enemy can reduce your speed by 1, and it works...

 

So the take away is:

If you Change your Speed - Thruster Fissure.

If your enemy Changes your Speed - Thruster Fissure.

 

 

And speed is determined by the Speed Dial.

 

Which is half of the trouble we had with G8s...  being Speed vs Speed of the Maneuver (and it appears that Speed of the Maneuver was intent there, as per GenCon Interview)

You're right about the FAQ. I'm definitely sending them a email later today to basically ask the same question, now that the question is more relevant. If not anything else, maybe it pushes them into adding in to the FAQ. I really feel like it is needed there, since the upgrade cards are differently worded.

 

However, an overlap with a ship would not trigger a additional damage from Thruster Fissure. The email says that the actual speed dial needs to be changed in order for Thruster Fissure to be triggered, and you do not change the speed dial when overlapping ships.

 

From the RRG (I added the bold):

"If a ship executes a maneuver and its final position would overlap another ship, it cannot finish its maneuver normally. Instead, temporarily reduce its speed by one (without changing the speed dial)"

Edited by Viper Jr.

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However, an overlap with a ship would not trigger a additional damage from Thruster Fissure. The email says that the actual speed dial needs to be changed in order for Thruster Fissure to be triggered, and you do not changed the speed dial when overlapping ships.

 

 

 

Isn't that what I said?

 

 

EDIT:

No, I didn't actualyl say it.  I quoted a question that I did not answer directly, but I apparently hinted it by answering the questions around it....

 

Thruster Fissure is only triggering when your Speed Dial changes, as stated above by myself (and Viper Jnr)

 

So on an Overlap, it does it.

and on G8s, it does not.

Edited by Drasnighta

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However, an overlap with a ship would not trigger a additional damage from Thruster Fissure. The email says that the actual speed dial needs to be changed in order for Thruster Fissure to be triggered, and you do not changed the speed dial when overlapping ships.

 

 

 

Isn't that what I said?

 

I'm sorry, I thought you said the other way around. I blame my non-native englishness!

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However, an overlap with a ship would not trigger a additional damage from Thruster Fissure. The email says that the actual speed dial needs to be changed in order for Thruster Fissure to be triggered, and you do not changed the speed dial when overlapping ships.

Isn't that what I said?

EDIT:

No, I didn't actualyl say it. I quoted a question that I did not answer directly, but I apparently hinted it by answering the questions around it....

Thruster Fissure is only triggering when your Speed Dial changes, as stated above by myself (and Viper Jnr)

So on an Overlap, it does it.

and on G8s, it does not.

What? What you just quoted meant that both the overlap and the g8 don't trigger thruster Fissure because both don't change the speed dial. Edited by Sybreed

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However, an overlap with a ship would not trigger a additional damage from Thruster Fissure. The email says that the actual speed dial needs to be changed in order for Thruster Fissure to be triggered, and you do not changed the speed dial when overlapping ships.

Isn't that what I said?

EDIT:

No, I didn't actualyl say it. I quoted a question that I did not answer directly, but I apparently hinted it by answering the questions around it....

Thruster Fissure is only triggering when your Speed Dial changes, as stated above by myself (and Viper Jnr)

So on an Overlap, it does it.

and on G8s, it does not.

What? What you just quoted meant that both the overlap and the g8 don't trigger thruster Fissure because both don't change the speed dial.

 

 

 

Re-Read man...  That's exactly what I'm saying.

But I'm also saying that someone asked "On an overlap do you take 0, 1, or 2" points of Damage, and I failed to say "0".

I just gave reasons as to why I was going to say Zero.

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However, an overlap with a ship would not trigger a additional damage from Thruster Fissure. The email says that the actual speed dial needs to be changed in order for Thruster Fissure to be triggered, and you do not changed the speed dial when overlapping ships.

Isn't that what I said?

EDIT:

No, I didn't actualyl say it. I quoted a question that I did not answer directly, but I apparently hinted it by answering the questions around it....

Thruster Fissure is only triggering when your Speed Dial changes, as stated above by myself (and Viper Jnr)

So on an Overlap, it does it.

and on G8s, it does not.

What? What you just quoted meant that both the overlap and the g8 don't trigger thruster Fissure because both don't change the speed dial.

 

 

Re-Read man...  That's exactly what I'm saying.

But I'm also saying that someone asked "On an overlap do you take 0, 1, or 2" points of Damage, and I failed to say "0".

I just gave reasons as to why I was going to say Zero.

Hmm okay it's just the way you said "it does it" that confused me

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And speed is determined by the Speed Dial.

 

Which is half of the trouble we had with G8s...  being Speed vs Speed of the Maneuver (and it appears that Speed of the Maneuver was intent there, as per GenCon Interview)

 

That's not really what the mail says though, is it? It doesn't clarify anything about the speed wording mess.

 

All it says is that speed changes are tracked on the dial at a time when the only occasion where it wasn't was actually written in the rules, and the gencon G8 intent comment is in direct contradiction of the statement "speed is determined by the Speed Dial".

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And speed is determined by the Speed Dial.

 

Which is half of the trouble we had with G8s...  being Speed vs Speed of the Maneuver (and it appears that Speed of the Maneuver was intent there, as per GenCon Interview)

 

That's not really what the mail says though, is it? It doesn't clarify anything about the speed wording mess.

 

All it says is that speed changes are tracked on the dial at a time when the only occasion where it wasn't was actually written in the rules, and the gencon G8 intent comment is in direct contradiction of the statement "speed is determined by the Speed Dial".

 

 

I'm not sure what this Gencon interview is, but another mail stated that "Speed = speed dial". Not sure whether that is relevant to your statement though, since I appear to have missed the famous Gencon-speed-G8-Intent-Thingy.

Edited by Viper Jr.

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Lore wise, G8 doesn't do anything to the thrusters. They still go the same speed but the g8 creates a bubble of space time whatever that slows the ship down. So, it makes sense that it doesn't proc thruster Fissure

Edited by Sybreed

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Just a question though:

Do we know that G-8 does not change the speed dial? I know it says "temporary", but does that intrinsically mean that the the dial is not changed (and then changed back)? I'm just thinking out loud here, since the overlapping rule explicitly tell us to not change the dial, while G-8 does not explicitly tell us that.

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Just a question though:

Do we know that G-8 does not change the speed dial? I know it says "temporary", but does that intrinsically mean that the the dial is not changed (and then changed back)? I'm just thinking out loud here, since the overlapping rule explicitly tell us to not change the dial, while G-8 does not explicitly tell us that.

 

Do you trust an Interview with a games designer?

 

 

Because Alex Davey stated that it was designed to work on Engine Techs.  

 

The only way it works on Engine Techs, is if it is changing the Speed of the Maneuver, and not the Speed of the Ship.  Because the Speed of the Ship is irrelevant to Engine Techs.

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