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rugal

Custom Class : Druid

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Fun is part of balance too. If an element of the game is broken, it is fun for only one side, at most, if not nobody.

 

And balancing Descent is near impossible.

 

Maybe you don't think that adding a yellow die and a black die is kind of strong, but for sure, try to play it or against it, and rolling blue + red + yelllow in attack, and grey + black in defense is kind of strong, further since it doesn't needs you to spend any money. And black + grey die in defense is Really tanky ! In fact, it is like the werewolf had the Runeplate armor !!

 

Don't forgive that the werewolf form doesn't needs you to spend any gold for him. So, indeed, it is strong, but maybe not as you wish you to be. And adding more advantage to it would be really broken. And using you idea to give a leap attack with a dice bonus would mean that the werewolf would do normal attack with only Blue + Red ? in act 2, it's neally useless, even the Raven flock has Blue + Red + Yellow dice on each regular attacks.

 

I'm going to think back of it, but really, you need to try it to see for yourself, because it not, this discussion is hard since your lacking playtest and gameplay.

 

Finally, for the action or fatigue, let me show you an example.

You're in druid and need to change to werewolf. You spend an action, you can. If it's fatigue cost, if you don't have it, you can't, you need a rest action before, and may be killed. In short, you always have an action to spend to change form but you may not have the fatigue for it. The Ovelord may stun you but you still have at least 1 action left, but the Overlord can make you lose all your stamina without any limitation. So, action is the best way. I could have create another way to change shape by XP cost, but I it was waste of skill

Edited by rugal

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I know balance is important, but I'm not arguing over your balance skillz here.  I'm talking about basic game design, which I don't need to balance-playtest to have an opinion on.  I wouldn't use your custom Druid class as it is now, because it doesn't WOW me on the fun factor.  I don't look at your werewolf and feel "Wow, that skill looks brutal!  I'm gonna jump around the room and make howling noises when I play that!"  Yes, I understand you gotta give the WW more ATK/DEF dice in Act 2.  But what matters is how you achieve that effect.

 

And adding more advantage to it would be really broken. And using you idea to give a leap attack with a dice bonus would mean that the werewolf would do normal attack with only Blue + Red ? in act 2, it's neally useless, even the Raven flock has Blue + Red + Yellow dice on each regular attacks.

 

 

See the contradiction?  First you say giving the WW a special attack would make it overpowered, then you say oh but the WW's normal attack is weak and useless.  Yes!  Because I meant to balance it that way!  You think I'm just trying to give the WW carte blanche advantages so he breaks the entire game, and you think I would think that's good gameplay?  No.

 

I already told you why I intended it that way: Instead of giving the WW a straight power-up where you don't have to strategize on how to use it, you give him a special ability that's pretty good in order to cover for his "weakness" half the time.  That way, the player has to play the WW intelligently to make him shine, not just walk up to monsters and start rolling dice.  And I did hear you when you said "the Druid is Healer class; his forms are not supposed to replace the Warrior class."  So the WW would have combat disadvantages to balance his combat advantages, to make him stand out with smart use, but not to make him all-around better than Warrior, or function the same way as the Warrior.

 

The above is the part which I agree with Tomkat.

 

You're in druid and need to change to werewolf. You spend an action, you can. If it's fatigue cost, if you don't have it, you can't, you need a rest action before, and may be killed. In short, you always have an action to spend to change form but you may not have the fatigue for it. The Ovelord may stun you but you still have at least 1 action left, but the Overlord can make you lose all your stamina without any limitation. 

 

That's great!  That makes for a character which must be strategized to be used well, but when used well can shine!  I like that the Werewolf doesn't need to waste actions to transform, but instead has a weakness which the OL can exploit to prevent him from transforming whenever he pleases.

 

Uses Action: You can always spend an action to transform.  No brainpower or planning needed.  But overall economy of actions is sacrificed for that ease of use.  Doesn't matter how smart you are, if you're a druid you will have to waste some actions.  Rewards dumb players and penalizes smart players.

Uses Fatigue: You can save your actions for winning the game, but you can get yourself killed if you don't manage your Stamina.  And you have to outsmart the OL because he has ways to "attack" your Stamina.  Strategizing needed.  Penalizes dumb players and rewards smart players.

Edited by Mlai

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English is not my native language and It's difficult to me to explain well what I intended to do.

 

It's a shame you don't want to test it out but it's your choice.

Edited by rugal

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Hi Rugal.

 

So I have spent the last couple of weeks trying to develop a druid class, and I was about to post my preliminary ideas for the skills on this website when I thought I would check to see if anyone else has already done this, and here it is! This class is amazing, I think it's much more balanced than mine. I think it's freaky how similar our ideas were btw. I had the same concept of shapeshifting (I called my shapes druid form and feral form), as well as the same concept of having heal over time which also provided buffs (although mine works a little differently; maybe I will still post it). Anyway, I just wanted to say, really strong work!

 

I just have one question about balance: I think mother nature seems potentially a little too OP. It would currently be the only skill in the game that allows more than one condition to be removed by a healer class in a single round, and the cost of removing seems to be a little too low to me. I was thinking if maybe this card should be exhausted when someone chooses to discard a rejuv token to remove a condition (so that it is limited to one use per round). How has it worked out so far in your run-throughs?

 

Anyway, I can't wait to print these cards and use this class. Oh, and to all those who keep nit-picking the theme and questioning the overall idea of the class (I'm looking at you, Mlai), make your own **** druid class if you have so many problems with Rugal's!! give the man some credit, he did a great job imo.

 

Oh I had one more idea btw that I put in mine and I think would be fun to try in your class. When my druid is in feral form (werewolf form for you), he gets +1 to strength and awareness and -1 to intelligence and willpower. I think this would add utility to the class as a support, and add a little more utility to the werewolf form. Let me know what you think.

Edited by Melgrin

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Hey Melgrin,

 

Big thanks to your post and congrats :) I'm happy to see you're pleased with it. Please let me know how about the balance when you would have play with.

 

Please post yours too, maybe some of our ideas may be merged into a full super balanced class ;)

 

for the awarness strengh and will power idea, I take it ! Not sure it will change many things but should worth the try, for sure.

 

Maybe mother nature is a bit strong, I will have to test it more maybe.

 

And thanks again

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I know balance is important, but I'm not arguing over your balance skillz here.  I'm talking about basic game design, which I don't need to balance-playtest to have an opinion on.  I wouldn't use your custom Druid class as it is now, because it doesn't WOW me on the fun factor.  I don't look at your werewolf and feel "Wow, that skill looks brutal!  I'm gonna jump around the room and make howling noises when I play that!"  Yes, I understand you gotta give the WW more ATK/DEF dice in Act 2.  But what matters is how you achieve that effect.

 

And adding more advantage to it would be really broken. And using you idea to give a leap attack with a dice bonus would mean that the werewolf would do normal attack with only Blue + Red ? in act 2, it's neally useless, even the Raven flock has Blue + Red + Yellow dice on each regular attacks.

 

 

See the contradiction?  First you say giving the WW a special attack would make it overpowered, then you say oh but the WW's normal attack is weak and useless.  Yes!  Because I meant to balance it that way!  You think I'm just trying to give the WW carte blanche advantages so he breaks the entire game, and you think I would think that's good gameplay?  No.

 

I already told you why I intended it that way: Instead of giving the WW a straight power-up where you don't have to strategize on how to use it, you give him a special ability that's pretty good in order to cover for his "weakness" half the time.  That way, the player has to play the WW intelligently to make him shine, not just walk up to monsters and start rolling dice.  And I did hear you when you said "the Druid is Healer class; his forms are not supposed to replace the Warrior class."  So the WW would have combat disadvantages to balance his combat advantages, to make him stand out with smart use, but not to make him all-around better than Warrior, or function the same way as the Warrior.

 

The above is the part which I agree with Tomkat.

 

You're in druid and need to change to werewolf. You spend an action, you can. If it's fatigue cost, if you don't have it, you can't, you need a rest action before, and may be killed. In short, you always have an action to spend to change form but you may not have the fatigue for it. The Ovelord may stun you but you still have at least 1 action left, but the Overlord can make you lose all your stamina without any limitation. 

 

That's great!  That makes for a character which must be strategized to be used well, but when used well can shine!  I like that the Werewolf doesn't need to waste actions to transform, but instead has a weakness which the OL can exploit to prevent him from transforming whenever he pleases.

 

Uses Action: You can always spend an action to transform.  No brainpower or planning needed.  But overall economy of actions is sacrificed for that ease of use.  Doesn't matter how smart you are, if you're a druid you will have to waste some actions.  Rewards dumb players and penalizes smart players.

Uses Fatigue: You can save your actions for winning the game, but you can get yourself killed if you don't manage your Stamina.  And you have to outsmart the OL because he has ways to "attack" your Stamina.  Strategizing needed.  Penalizes dumb players and rewards smart players.

You've inspired me put to making a decent druid class on my list of things to do. I'm finishing up my Y/G Spellcloak (or shadowcaster. undecided name.)

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Will try to do some druid playtests in Road To Legend and when I've sorted the flat work-needing-doing with my gaming mates, be patient though as I won't have the time just yet- but it is on the 'will do' list!

 

I like some of your ideas so if you can get the balance working it will be awesome, the druid could also be a good choice for combating the 'three evils' of my campaign project.

 

And let's try and keep the feedback discussions on here friendly- game element design is a very challenging area, balance being its biggest challenge, so stay friendly and constructive and these ideas can be perfected into the best end solution. They designed the best bridges by allowing themselves to design bridges that failed- allow people the grace to get it wrong as the best ideas creatively have to originate from somewhere and it can take time to perfect them into their final form.

 

The druid/werewolf combo may be best as a particular type of druid so as to allow for a non-formchanging 'standard' druid so perhaps the name of this class is 'Some-specific-type-of-druid-name Druid'? where the specific name suits the connection to nature/earth- has anyone any thoughts?

Edited by Watercolour Dragon

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12 hours ago, rugal said:

I've based the druid on the druid from Diablo 2 and WoW.

A "classic" druid with nature power would be more a shaman, no ?

The concept of the druid as a druid who can also shapeshift fits if you look at those inspiration points:

 

http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Druid

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Druid

Perhaps the background info for the class can highlight the links to nature and aspects that exist around and alongside the shapeshifting ability - you don't have enough room to do this with the cards (although you might find opportunities to tweak them to hint at it, which they already do to quite an extent, suggesting the druids powers are intertwined with their bonds with nature- this gives the class quite a pleasing nature-centric feel- I can imagine it thematically fitting the elves quite well as they're a nature-focused race.

 

I think there's still the potential for it to be a specialist type of druid- something like 'Naturebound Druid' but with a better term to replace 'naturebound' as it's finding the word that fits and has a nice sound to it, something that emphasizes the specific nature (he he) of these druids compared to any other types of druid.

 

Could it be that 'druid' is an option within the archetype 'Healer' with two or more classes, one being this tied-to-nature shapeshifting druid (perhaps- only an idea- not just tied to the wolf, might be neat if an elf could go leonx for example!, although adding such flexibility might be too tricky and may not work) and the other more of a single form conventional druid a bit like Ceasarsalad101 and others have suggested.

 

It is true that druid can be different things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#Druids_in_mythology

 

Spiritspeaker has similarities in terms of links to nature and comes under 'Healer' so it probably is the best fit archetype for druid too.

 

http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Spiritspeaker

http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Healer

 

 

Edited by Watercolour Dragon

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Fully updated the druid


should be balanced and playable, but need more tests

 

I'm not happy with :

- too many skills that cost no fatigue
- don't like werewolf's side of Mother earth, Savage favor and Warding totem and Wrath of the earth (only the limitation token is good and should be kept)

 

If you have ideas, guys, I gratefully take them all ;)

Edited by rugal

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Hmm I think Feral Gift and Primitive Heart should cost at least 1 stamina. Also I think Primitive Heart should become an exhaust card.

I somehow feel that it should cost an Action (and maybe 1 stamina) to shift into WW form, but no action to revert back to normal form. Or that you become stunned (next turn) when you unshift. This would allow you (if you start your turn as WW) to revert to normal form, still do 2 actions, but then loose one action on the next turn (being stunned).

Something you could consider is granting the druid +1 more base stamina when shapeshifting and allowing while in WW to suffer stamina over the cap (or convert HP to stamina). I think that would be thematic.

I like the idea of a druid and shapeshifting, I am not sure where you got your inspiration from, please do tell, but it feels a bit weird and not so thematic as healer archetype, to transform into a wolf. It would be more logically for a warrior archetype to transform into a werewolf (and receive offensive bonuses). Have you considered shapeshifting into a tree/treant instead?

Overall I like the rejuvenation idea, but I think it is too powerful, especially with the 3XP card and feels a lot like the bard to play. Have you considered discarding the token after each Hero turn and healing self or an adjacent hero?

Edit: I recognized the Rejuvenation/Regrowth Icon from WoW. Have you considered increasing the amount of Rejuvenation tokens granted initially? For example: Rejuvenation: Roll the red die, target receives 3 Rejuvenation tokens and heals the amount rolled. Discard 1 rejuvenation token after each player turn. Each time you discard a token heal 1 heart.

or

Rejuvenation: Roll the red die, target heals 1 heart and receives Rejuvenation tokens equal to the amount rolled. Discard 1 rejuvenation token after each player turn. Each time you discard a token heal 1 heart.

Then the other skills increase the amount of Rejuvenation tokens granted up to 5. Then you can just apply HoT (Heal over Time) to your party, shapeshift and do your thing, and revert back to normal form when the HoT is going to expire.

Also, am I correct that this class intentionally can NOT remove conditions?

Edited by Skulmaster

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I wished a Druid like Diablo 2, who can be build has a healer, a summoner and a shapeshifter (even with some attack spells), or maybe like WoW, yes, even if Warcraft 3 is a better inspiration to me (like the weredruid is)

As descent cannot be so much all-rounded, druid could be, to my opinion, a healer or a mage, maybe a scout, but no warrior.

Mage could be an option, being a summoner and spellcaster or shapeshifting, but why would you shape into werewolf ?

 

But the healer is the class that does the least things, except the Apothecary (being from far the better healer of the game, maybe one of the best class), other healers don't do many things, the bard and disciple on top of the list.
So, the idea is to offer a healer that give HoT, transform while your spells are on, and revert back when they are finished to redo them. So, yes.

In fact, I tried many things, and it was too powerfull or too weak.

- I tried : Give 3 Rejuvenate tokens (on a base of 12) and discarding 1 at the start of the turn and healing 1 heart But it is far too weak since in 3 turns, healing 3 is really to weak.
- I tried : Discard 1 rejuvenate token at the start of your turn, roll 1 red die and heal that much but it is just all better than the disciple and rolling dice all the time is boring

In fact, even if I do like the idea of discarding tokens at the start of a turn, if the healing is not enough, like 1 per turn, it is useless and far too weak since the game is about tempo, so healing 1 heart on 3 turns is nothing like a heal of 3 immediately, and since game are about around 10 turns, healing 3 times a red die heal to 3 to 9 in 3 turns, where the druid would heal 9 in 9 turns. On other hand, if the healing is 2 heart, the druid can heal 6 heart in 3 turns, so 1 fatigue less than a disciple and no need of being adjacent and all.


So, the solution I choose is between this. It is a bit different than the bard since there is no need to be within 3 spaces to recover 1 and the bard is locked on his base card if choosing this. If you play the druid and the bard, bard can go understudy or aria of war. Don't forget that the tokens are discarded if the hero is defeated, and that the tokens could be useless if the hero suffers no damage. So, it can be really strong, but a be a waste of fatigue if the hero is focused by attack, or unlucky, so you will oftenly pay to pass tokens from a hero to another.

Rejuvenation: Roll the red die, target heals 1 heart and receives Rejuvenation tokens equal to the amount rolled.
Discard 1 rejuvenation token after each player turn. Each time you discard a token heal 1 heart.


I will think and try this idea, indeed !
 

 

Choosing a healer also "force" the player to shapeshift, since being as a druid when you give all tokens is useless, because on other version, the player choose to stay as a druid and giving tokens all the time or leaving the druid healing for werewolf. That why the werewolf cannot "raide" heroes, to force the player to revert back to druid form.

No action to revert back to druid ? I can try, even if I think it is a bit strange.
I choose werewolf because to me, druids are shapeshifter into beasts, like D&D, Diablo, WoW, and tree is nothing really "sexy" to me, but it could be a bear, but I really love werewolf, i admit (:))
I wished the druid would summon treant familiars, but I had to choose, so I left the idea behind :(

 

Yes, the druid cannot remove condition, since he already do strong heal, revive, and can be a descent fighter, one of his disadvantage is that he cannot remove condition and cost many actions.

Edited by rugal

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Aah lovely a fellow Blizzard player! I've spent many hours on Diablo 2, WoW and WC3. I am currently in process of creating D2LoD (classes/quests/monsters) within the Descent ruleset. I very much agree that it is difficult to convert the class with limited skill options. Converting the WoW druid is even worse, that would require 4 druid archetypes to do right:)

If you want to use the D2 druid as base, I don't think he really fits as a healer archetype. My idea for the D2 Descent druid was to combine most of the skills into one card, for example: Carrion Vine/Solar Creeper in one card (and choose each turn to restore health or stamina). Summon grizzly/wolf/ravens combined in one card, and choose what to summon. Then 2 paths, the elemental path and the shapeshift path. Werebear/werewolf combined in one card, feral rage/maul combined in one card,... and do on.

So going more of the "pure" healer route, I think it is better to use the WoW restoration druid as base. Aka Regrowth (HoT with initial heal), Rejuvenation (HoT), Heart of the Wild (buff party), Faerie Fire (debuff enemy).

I agree that 1 hp each turn when discarding a token sounds low. But in WoW there was a skill/talent (forgot the name) that would allow you to consume the HoT's for an instant heal. So let's for example call it Healing Touch: Exhaust and choose a target, consume some or all of the remaining Rejuvenation tokens and instantly heal the amount of Rejuvenation tokens discarded.

or

Healing Touch: Exhaust (cost 1-x stamina), for each stamina spent to exhaust this card the target may discard one rejuvenation token and heal 1 hp for each token discarded.

I love the werewolf/bear/cat shapeshifting whatever idea, but I think it would just complicate things and combined poorly as healer (and locking you out as you say). Though shapeshifting into a tree to buff healing and root monsters could be cool.

Edited by Skulmaster

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Yes, my friend, and I'm waiting for War3 reforged ;)

Descent V2 cannot offer the same options as Diablo or WoW (and maybe for the best).
I do think that the healer archetype is by far the better option. I've tested for a few days by now, and it really works, even if it needs a bit balance, indeed.

When "adapting" some ideas from a game to another, you need to adapt it to the game is goes to, and as explained, the temp of descent needs many adjustement.

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On 12/18/2019 at 10:54 PM, rugal said:

Descent V2 cannot offer the same options as Diablo or WoW (and maybe for the best).
I do think that the healer archetype is by far the better option. I've tested for a few days by now, and it really works, even if it needs a bit balance.

Hmm I didn't mean that the healer archetype is bad option, I just meant that the D2 druid is not a healer, so it does not make much sense to convert him to Descent as healer archetype.

I think if you really want to convert for example the WoW druid to Descent, keeping all skills, then you need to:

A) Split him up in different archetypes: scout/warrior (cat/bear form), Mage (Moonkin form) and healer (Treant form) and perhaps keep Rejuvenation as base card/skill so only the healer can improve upon it.

Or

B) Still split him up in different archetypes (melee/Mage) but create a special hybrid class so the melee and Mage druid can hybridise with the restoration skills

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In my memories, Diablo 2 druid did some healing (maybe not much)

I don't see the point of creating a warrior that can morph into another form to be stronger.

As said before, I don't want to create the EXACT same druid, just something with IDEAS from other game so the druid could be a real class of descent and not some sort of bad adaptation.

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