Tourney on Saturday. C&C appreciated on Lumpy Space Princess

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

So Lumpy Space Princess because the MC80 because it's lumpy, in space, and it's ... a princess. I need a better name so feel free to chime in with anything. The more entertaining the better.

 

REBELS

Faction: Rebel Alliance 
Points: 400/400 

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Most Wanted 
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost 
Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep 

[ flagship ] MC80 Star Cruiser (96 points)
-  General Madine  ( 30  points) 
-  Mon Karren  ( 8  points) 
-  Lando Callriassian  ( 4  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 
= 164 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 51 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 51 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 51 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Bright Hope  ( 2  points) 
-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points) 
= 25 total ship cost

1 Jan Ors ( 19 points) 
3 X-Wing Squadrons ( 39 points) 

Five activations, a lot of firepower, and a decent (or at least efficicent) fighter screen and I think I have all my bases covered. I'm wondering is I should drop an X-Wing to get a decent bid in or to sneak in a Bomber Command. Really though, almost everything is on the chopping block.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Drop x17s.... and if you really want a bid, expanded hanger bay.

To be honest, a flotilla without a fleet support card seems wierd. Maybe comms net or sensor teams.

[DR4CO 6,234]

Also, move Madine to a CR90. No reason to hand over another 30 points when the enemy inevitably guns down the Liberty.

[HERO 842]

My thoughts on this exact list:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-liberty-swarm.html

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-making-liberty-work.html

 

In short, I think you really want a bid if you want to run the Liberty.  You can take it in two flavors: Engine Techs or XX-9s to push damage.  I think you want Intel Officer because you really need it to push damage through to bigger ships like the ISD-II or MC80 H1.

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

Thanks, for the links HERO. Your articles are on the reason's I switched the MC80 Battles Cruiser for the Star Cruiser w/Mon Karren after I posted my first iteration of this list a few months back.

 

Thoughts from said Tourney on Saturday:

 

I went 3-0 and took first place with 9-2, 10-1, and 10-1 so that's a good sign. First two games were against an ISD, Interdictor, Gozanti build, the last against a Demo (no engine techs), 3 raiders, and 2 flotillas with mini Rhymerball. Almost every game could of taken a bad turn if I didn't have Madine. That man is crazy. Madine also let me fly almost directly at my opponent and pull a full 180 on the first pass with almost all of my ships so they took a trailing position and let me keep up the pressure.

 

Mon Karren is good but really you should just read it as "Put one more damage on medium/large ships for 8 points" (which really only works this way if you take the XI7s). It's good but not overpowering.

 

I'm not really sure I want to change the list now now (or at least yet) because a lot of it has to do with how I use it. Every game I started almost everything at max speed (except the GR75 which I start at 2) and I ram 'em down the opponents throat. First round everyone banks a nav so I can Madine on demand (MC80's dials are set Nav, CF, NAV). What this means is that the 3 corvettes start shooting effectively turn 2 (sometimes 1) with the MC80 adding 4 reds where it can, and they start picking on what I want dead most. Since the MC80 can only go speed 3 he is actually running clean up and with gunnery teams he's really good at it. The kicker is that with the activation count and going second while I lost corvettes and fighters, the MC80 only got shot once all day and that was by Demo, which I Lando-ed and turned a startling amount of damage to a more reasonable 5. With the way I was flying the list Intel Officer and XX-9s wouldn't have done anything since the MC80 shot last most of the time tokens were already exhausted and what the MC80 shot at with a full 8 dice died, which included a Motti ISDII after it got plincked by all three TRC90s over turn 2+3. If I played the list differently I absolutely see the need to change up the MC80 but right now I think I have to play more games with it before could possibly fix what isn't broken.

 

The GR75 was okay. It provided an activation and babysat my squadrons all day. Ultimately I think it had a slightly larger impact that it points would suggest but I also guess it's a good thing i wasn't wowed by a 25 point investment.

 

The last game could've gotten little dicey since I was second player vs a 6 activation Demo list. My opponent blew away a TRC90 and left me in kind of a bad spot activation wise so in return I started picking off his easy to kill activations. For the TRC90 I lost that turn I killed the two Gozantis and a Raider. With the high quality damage dealing activation count, I honestly didn't really miss going first but it was awesome when I was given first player. In order to fit in a bid I'll probably have to drop an X-Wing and maybe bright hope. 

 

Miscellaneous thoughts:

-I'm pretty confident in my anti Demo game but I really do think if they don't let you Demo after ET that'll fix most of every issue I have with that card. 

-Flotillas are crazy easy to kill. If you double are one with a TRC90, it's probably going to die, if not from the shots then from the follow up ram.

[HERO 842]

I dig it man.  Grats!

Thoughts on Lando over the IO?  In which circumstances do you feel that IO could have helped you more?

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

I dig it man.  Grats!

Thoughts on Lando over the IO?  In which circumstances do you feel that IO could have helped you more?

Lando is insurance. Liberty has weak side and rear shields, no ECM, and in playtesting a basically useless redirect (your front is generally facing the enemy, so I've found it about 50/50 where I can actually redirect from the front to sides but I don't want to since there's always some dude hanging in the wings wanting to pounce). Lando buys you a get out of jail free card for an ISD or Demo shot. 

 

The way I play it Intel doesn't work. I think it's a bit of a hangover from playing MC80 Defiance for so long but I activated Liberty last almost every time since the TRC90's raced forwards at speed 4 and with the high activation Liberty following up at speed 3 meant people wandered into that big front arc (often with already exhausted tokens). The TRC90's set up the Liberty shots or if necessary bodyblock so someone can;t scoot out of Liberty's arc. I think this also helps Liberty's survive ability since it's hard to focus on Liberty when you have 3 TRC90's buzzing in your face at the bottom of turn 1.

 

Now if I have the initiative + engine techs (or you like to run your TRC90s a little slower or have a slower fleet in general) I could see that switching a good deal. Intel is great for a set up for the TRC90's so I have a speed 4 Liberty crashing into your lines the focus shifts considerably. Liberty is going to get there first or the same time as the TRC90s. Lando won't help you that much in that scenario because Liberty's big butt will more than likely be sitting in multiple arcs so you have to activate early. Intel officer then sets up the rest of the fleet to really take down something juicy.

 

I think the latter style of play is a bit more high risk but i think you can win bigger with it because you are more than likely to blow away good targets and the TRC90s are more likely to go unscathed. The way I played the Liberty at the tournament I think is safer, especially with Lando, but I'm probably less likley to pull away with big wins since I will have to and am willing to sacrifice TRC90s. 

[HERO 842]

For me, my list allows me to do the following.  It essentially plays like your list in the beginning, taking a more cautious approach and dropping down some fire for the Liberty.  Then, it switches gears, suddenly and violently.

It allows me to outmatch activations with 3-ship builds while still having initiative.  In this matchup, it allows me to choreograph a good position with my Liberty after everything else has moved for the list I want to fight against.  This basically allows me to jump from outside red into prime firing location with Engine Techs, and then shoot first next round before flying the big shark away, and then having the minnows finish the target.  This is pretty much what you described, but being able to switch tempo really messes with your opponents' gameplan since they have to prepare for multiple avenues of attack.  They never known when the shark is going to pounce sort to speak.

 

It's fun, I gotta try it out some more, but so far I'm 2-0 vs. less than optimized fleets since we're all kinda trying out our new toys right now!

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

For me, my list allows me to do the following.  It essentially plays like your list in the beginning, taking a more cautious approach and dropping down some fire for the Liberty.  Then, it switches gears, suddenly and violently.

It allows me to outmatch activations with 3-ship builds while still having initiative.  In this matchup, it allows me to choreograph a good position with my Liberty after everything else has moved for the list I want to fight against.  This basically allows me to jump from outside red into prime firing location with Engine Techs, and then shoot first next round before flying the big shark away, and then having the minnows finish the target.  This is pretty much what you described, but being able to switch tempo really messes with your opponents' gameplan since they have to prepare for multiple avenues of attack.  They never known when the shark is going to pounce sort to speak.

 

It's fun, I gotta try it out some more, but so far I'm 2-0 vs. less than optimized fleets since we're all kinda trying out our new toys right now!

The way you suggest playing is why I think you may have bigger point wins consistently because you aren't risking as many pieces right away but is slightly riskier because Liberty is the big point piece and is in the spotlight a little sooner. I'm starting to get the sense that I play way more aggressively than conventional wisdom would suggest but it hasn't let me down yet. Also more fun for me cause I like to start throwing dice sooner.

 

I think Madine is the big winner for this wave. The Nav commands under him make it so easy to maneuver where you need him to be and it lets you shift and apply pressure much more fluidly and unexpectedly. Liberty under Madine is more maneuverable than a base CR90 which is ridiculous when you think about it.

[HERO 842]

I'll log in Vassal tonight and take a few screenshots of some maneuvers I've done on the table with Madine that are borderline obscene.

 

I really can't see me flying the Liberty at all with anyone but Madine.  I'm also really excited about the MC30c also being really slippery under him.

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

I'll log in Vassal tonight and take a few screenshots of some maneuvers I've done on the table with Madine that are borderline obscene.

 

I really can't see me flying the Liberty at all with anyone but Madine.  I'm also really excited about the MC30c also being really slippery under him.

Maybe Sato just because of black dice? The Liberty has such an odd maneuver chart so I'm glad we got Madine but one side of me thinks he would have been more helpful to the Imperials. Then again Madine is an ex imperial.

[HERO 842]

 

I'll log in Vassal tonight and take a few screenshots of some maneuvers I've done on the table with Madine that are borderline obscene.

 

I really can't see me flying the Liberty at all with anyone but Madine.  I'm also really excited about the MC30c also being really slippery under him.

Maybe Sato just because of black dice? The Liberty has such an odd maneuver chart so I'm glad we got Madine but one side of me thinks he would have been more helpful to the Imperials. Then again Madine is an ex imperial.

 

 

Sato might make the list better, but I think the overall speed of the list can cause some problems.  A-Wings can keep up, but they lack the fluidity that comes with Rogue.  Hera Syndulla anyone?

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

 

 

I'll log in Vassal tonight and take a few screenshots of some maneuvers I've done on the table with Madine that are borderline obscene.

 

I really can't see me flying the Liberty at all with anyone but Madine.  I'm also really excited about the MC30c also being really slippery under him.

Maybe Sato just because of black dice? The Liberty has such an odd maneuver chart so I'm glad we got Madine but one side of me thinks he would have been more helpful to the Imperials. Then again Madine is an ex imperial.

 

 

Sato might make the list better, but I think the overall speed of the list can cause some problems.  A-Wings can keep up, but they lack the fluidity that comes with Rogue.  Hera Syndulla anyone?

 

I wouldn't say Sato would make the list better since he would turn the Liberty into more of a brawler. I think it would be fun to use but I'm not sure Liberty can take the punishment in return. A-Wing's might be the way to go since you can get a cheap activation from a Flotilla. Maybe E-Wings if they aren't too expensive?

[HERO 842]

 

 

 

I'll log in Vassal tonight and take a few screenshots of some maneuvers I've done on the table with Madine that are borderline obscene.

 

I really can't see me flying the Liberty at all with anyone but Madine.  I'm also really excited about the MC30c also being really slippery under him.

Maybe Sato just because of black dice? The Liberty has such an odd maneuver chart so I'm glad we got Madine but one side of me thinks he would have been more helpful to the Imperials. Then again Madine is an ex imperial.

 

 

Sato might make the list better, but I think the overall speed of the list can cause some problems.  A-Wings can keep up, but they lack the fluidity that comes with Rogue.  Hera Syndulla anyone?

 

I wouldn't say Sato would make the list better since he would turn the Liberty into more of a brawler. I think it would be fun to use but I'm not sure Liberty can take the punishment in return. A-Wing's might be the way to go since you can get a cheap activation from a Flotilla. Maybe E-Wings if they aren't too expensive?

 

 

One can dream haha..

 

I think the Liberty is a bit of a hybrid between a brawler and a flanker.  It's effectively both because sooner or later, it needs to Engine Techs itself into a position where it can maul its target.  Blacks can only make that experience better, while giving you better results at long range.

[Arcanis161 49]

I'll log in Vassal tonight and take a few screenshots of some maneuvers I've done on the table with Madine that are borderline obscene.

 

I really can't see me flying the Liberty at all with anyone but Madine.  I'm also really excited about the MC30c also being really slippery under him.

Been messing around with a list with Madine, Mon Karren (upgraded not too dissimilar to ImpStarDeuces list), Admonition, and Salvation and they are a blast together (Though I may need to tweak it for activation advantage).

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

 

I'll log in Vassal tonight and take a few screenshots of some maneuvers I've done on the table with Madine that are borderline obscene.

 

I really can't see me flying the Liberty at all with anyone but Madine.  I'm also really excited about the MC30c also being really slippery under him.

Been messing around with a list with Madine, Mon Karren (upgraded not too dissimilar to ImpStarDeuces list), Admonition, and Salvation and they are a blast together (Though I may need to tweak it for activation advantage).

 

You have my attention. Got a list? I already see what you are saying if you only have 3 activations. Fun to play but incredibly vulnerable if you lose a ship too early.

[Arcanis161 49]

 

 

I'll log in Vassal tonight and take a few screenshots of some maneuvers I've done on the table with Madine that are borderline obscene.

 

I really can't see me flying the Liberty at all with anyone but Madine.  I'm also really excited about the MC30c also being really slippery under him.

Been messing around with a list with Madine, Mon Karren (upgraded not too dissimilar to ImpStarDeuces list), Admonition, and Salvation and they are a blast together (Though I may need to tweak it for activation advantage).

 

You have my attention. Got a list? I already see what you are saying if you only have 3 activations. Fun to play but incredibly vulnerable if you lose a ship too early.

 

Well, currently there's two. One has just three ships, while the other removes Intel Officer, ECM, and Engine Techs to add a flotilla to protect Madine and to add another activation:

 

Fleet 1:

Madine 1   

Author: Arcanis161

Faction: Rebel Alliance 

Points: 389/400 

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery 

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost 

Navigation Objective: Minefields 

 

MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 points)

-  Mon Karren  ( 8  points) 

-  Intel Officer  ( 7  points) 

-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 

-  Engine Techs  ( 8  points) 

-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points) 

-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 

= 143 total ship cost

 

[ flagship ] MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)

-  General Madine  ( 30  points) 

-  Admonition  ( 8  points) 

-  Lando Callriassian  ( 4  points) 

-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points) 

-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points) 

-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points) 

= 121 total ship cost

 

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)

-  Salvation  ( 7  points) 

-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 

= 67 total ship cost

 

1 Jan Ors ( 19 points) 

3 X-Wing Squadrons ( 39 points) 

 

Fleet 2:

Madine 2   

Author: Arcanis161

Faction: Rebel Alliance 

Points: 388/400 

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Most Wanted 

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost 

Navigation Objective: Minefields 

 

MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 points)

-  Mon Karren  ( 8  points) 

-  Lando Callriassian  ( 4  points) 

-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 

-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points) 

-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 

= 132 total ship cost

 

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)

-  Admonition  ( 8  points) 

-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points) 

-  Advanced Projectors  ( 6  points) 

= 81 total ship cost

 

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)

-  Salvation  ( 7  points) 

-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 

= 67 total ship cost

 

[ flagship ] GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)

-  General Madine  ( 30  points) 

-  Jamming Field  ( 2  points) 

= 50 total ship cost

 

1 Jan Ors ( 19 points) 

3 X-Wing Squadrons ( 39 points)  

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

That's a tough one...

In #1 I would consider dropping the ECM on the Admo. The redundant tokens should be enough to save you. Maybe drop the spinal armament to a TRC on Salvation? You want to fish for crits and it's almost always better tot ake the sure thing. Or you could take the ECM points and put Ray on it for some rerolls.

 

I like #2 because it reminds me of my list but you might want to consider somehow fitting in APTS on Admo by dropping the AP and maybe Bright Hope over Jamming Field to protect that investment (especially with Madine on board).

 

I get the feeling Hero would say take #1 all day but #2 has a nice activation advantage and actually supports the fighters a bit.

 

How have the games been going? I'm a little curious to know how your activation count has affected your games with all the cheap ships floating around.

[Arcanis161 49]

Well, since the only other Armada player in my area and I have clashing schedules to where we can never find time to meet, I have been self testing. For these fleets, I have been testing them against fleets that I perceive as being their weaknesses. The 1st fleet took out a (granted basic) Rhymerball, a Konnie 1x Interdictor 2x VSD fleet, and, with effort, a MothMSU.

The second fleet barely lost to a Clonisher style DeMSU.

[HERO 842]

I like the idea of the MC30c with the Liberty in the same list, but I also think that one of them will be begging for the first activation which can possibly leave the other one vulnerable.  They're both not the most durable of ships.

Edited August 25, 2016 by HERO

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

Maybe make a one two punch? Slow roll the MC80 and send the MC30 in first, let it get a shot off and zoom past, and then bring in the MC80. That kind of list begs for the activation advantage and the only way I see that possible right now would be to drop Salvation for some GR75s but I really like Salvation as a follow up to MK.

[HERO 842]

Maybe make a one two punch? Slow roll the MC80 and send the MC30 in first, let it get a shot off and zoom past, and then bring in the MC80. That kind of list begs for the activation advantage and the only way I see that possible right now would be to drop Salvation for some GR75s but I really like Salvation as a follow up to MK.

 

Bingo.  In which case I think the torpedo version wouldn't be as flexible because you also want the reverse to be true sometimes -- have the Liberty take the shoot and zoom past (or dance past), and then once the other target moves, he will be in range of the MC30c to do its dirty work.

[Arcanis161 49]

Adjusting fleets to try out based on your suggestions, tyvm guys!

However, I'm noticing that if I just have Admonition (turned into a scout with TRC) and Mon Karren with some GR75s, I notice that unless I give up upgrades and a (granted high) initiative bid, I can only fit two GR75 flotillas, so there's a concern.

 

I'm also concerned that this combo (Mon Karren and Admonition with Madine) might be one of those that works better as first player rather than second player. While, granted, tactics will be very important in this regard, if I'm always struggling as 2nd player, that might mean it's not so good of a combo after all. This is why I need to test (and test a LOT more than I have been).

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

Adjusting fleets to try out based on your suggestions, tyvm guys!

However, I'm noticing that if I just have Admonition (turned into a scout with TRC) and Mon Karren with some GR75s, I notice that unless I give up upgrades and a (granted high) initiative bid, I can only fit two GR75 flotillas, so there's a concern.

 

I'm also concerned that this combo (Mon Karren and Admonition with Madine) might be one of those that works better as first player rather than second player. While, granted, tactics will be very important in this regard, if I'm always struggling as 2nd player, that might mean it's not so good of a combo after all. This is why I need to test (and test a LOT more than I have been).

I found the sweet spot to be ok as second player is 5 activations. 4 is ok and doable.