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Ken at Sunrise

FFG News - X-Wing™ for Beginners

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Wow what a bunch of hurt competetive players complaining that an article tells a player who has never played X-Wing before how to learn the game and get an easy entry into it. A player that may very well only ever play casual and never go competetive. A player that probably likes Star Wars and remembers X-Wings, Y-Wings and TIE Fighters from the movies and wants to reenact battles and have fun with it. Yet the article should instead tell something like "Hey mate, you only bought the core set because we don't ship movement templates with the latest triple u-boat hotness which you need to win games". ... oh yes I forgot, they're nerfed now. The latest hotness is double u-boats... Denga..who?

 

Do you know what the average reaction will be?

"I thought this is a star wars miniature game, why do I have to get 3 flying toilet seats?".

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Budgernaut,

 

I understand what you are saying. This is why I listed a community of like-minded people. I do not know of such a community in my area nor would I know how to get in touch with them if they exist. The Facebook page for my area is heavily focused on the tournaments. This is not surprising as the founder is a experienced tournament player and has won several tournaments.

 

There is a positive - the models are fantastic. They make for great display models. 

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The game is not for beginners. It is an arms race. If you start with the beginning set, you will find that you are out-everything. And, it is incredibly expensive. Just to get one of everything released - the playing pieces - will set back a person by over a thousand dollars. And to focus on one faction, it will cost hundreds of dollars.

So your bench mark for what makes a "beginner friendly" game is the cost to buy one of everything?

Okay....that means there are somewhere in the area of 0 beginner friendly table top games.

If you can play the game for $70 and learn the mechanics in a couple hours, it's a beginner friendly game.

Plenty of forum users who aren't beginner friendly trashing this article, but the game itself is fine.

I didn't even read the article because I'm a competitive player and realized there's very little of substance for me, but I've got better things to do than chase off future players with a bunch of "this game isn't for you, it's for us" BS.

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If you can play the game for $70 and learn the mechanics in a couple hours, it's a beginner friendly game.

 

 

Great point. That's about the average cost for a popular board game, though a lot of stores have events for learning those games before a person buys it. And the analogy breaks down quickly from there.

 

I think most of the dissonance going on in this thread is due to a lack of understanding what a "beginner" is. The box may say 14+ but I have seen very few teenagers playing this game. (Maybe some teenaged in temperament, but in adult bodies.  ;) ) If the age group I've encountered matters, then you have people who understand the investment aspect of such games and also the value of research available through forums. FFG may have reason to distrust the X-Wing Forum. The evidence may be in this very thread! 

Edited by Ob3ron

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Sekac, 

 

It is something that has to be considered if you want to get into the game.

 

In this game, it is best for the player to select a faction, then get the best cards and ships. Each wave introduces new concepts to the game, so it becomes a matter of urgency for the player to get the best card and/or ships from that wave that benefits their faction. This costs money for the cards are spread across the sets. Sometimes, to get the best card, a player has to buy a set outside their faction. Arms race is by its nature expensive. There will be people who, upon learning this game, will be put off by the reality that they will have to spend much more than the cost of the core set to build a solid foundation for a faction. This is briefly raised in the article, where the author says the new player will want to get new ships immediately. 

 

And I know what a beginner is? A beginner is someone new to the game and to the mechanics of said game.

Edited by Lakenheath 72

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There's a lot of sour pusses on this forum that haven't had fun in a long time playing this game but they won't quit and will only fly meta lists and ***** that they are forced to fly those lists. If it's not fun...then don't play!

I guess they just need something to complain about.

At this point new players would probably be served best by focusing on one or maybe two factions. Don't worry about getting all the upgrades or copying meta lists unless you have a ton of money to throw away and are willing to travel to all those tournaments. Get a core, or both, or a core and most wanted to start your scum. Buy what you like. Large ships can be fun but require more skill and maneuvering around the board. The first 100-200 bucks you drop on this game IS the learning curve and will tell you whether you want to spend 10 times that to make those 'power lists' and become competative or whether you want to play for fun and purchase new stuff here and there and ignore the rest.

This article does go well with that Fly Casual article!

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Here's some real advice

Imperial? Ep 7 core withimpp vets and tie/fo

Nothing better for beginners than the very forgiving x7 while FOs are a blast to fly and come easy built with juke relay omega l and wired WG zeta L and some forth bloke (eps ace prob)

Reb? Both core sets and a K

Biggs Poe (r2d2) and tlt Miranda

Proxy ia and thrusters if needed

Regen and tlt are very forgiving and Biggs helps cover sloppy approaches

Alternatively, red core with Luke and the four stolen ties once they're out :P

 

See, this is where your perspective produces a flawed approach. The FO does have a great standalone pilot built into it. However, I would not call Omega Leader new player friendly. 

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This is some bad advice, lol.

If you like Rebels, buy a second X-Wing and a Y-Wing!  Uh, it forgot to mention that X-Wings are terrible and that you're Y-Wing is pretty useless unless you buy a Rebel Transport (R3A2), a K-Wing (TLT), or whatever the hell has the autoblaster.

They recommend more basic TIEs (though without Crackshot) or an Interceptor but no Starviper (Autothrusters) or A-Wing/ImpAces (PtL).

The truth is, X-Wing is not a game for beginners, so it's bit of a disingenuous article to make the entry bar sound so darn low.  It's not a game for beginners in the sense that your available lists will always be strictly inferior to the general meta unless someone is willing to invest $300-500 dollars at the outset.  So, no article, they should be afraid to play in tournaments if all they've bought is a Core, a TIE, an Interceptor, and a Slave-1... hah!  Dat Krassis!!  :lol:

 

 

This attitude is one thing that is wrong with this forum, and maybe the game. Getting into the game DOES NOT MEAN GETTING INTO THE COMPETITIVE GAME!!!!

 

This is a very easy game to get into. A $100 investment, and you can have some variety of 100 point squads to play around with. Squads that you can have fun with. 

 

Another thing that is wrong with these forums are players who act like everything is great and just wonderful and the only issues with the game stem from people's bad attitudes.  I remember playing in Regional tournaments with you four years ago.  I haven't seen you at a tournament in the past three years, so I don't even know if you've played the game at a competitive level in the past five waves (yet you post like an authority on everything).  Let me tell you, down in the (Death Star) trenches **** is nasty.  The vast majority of ships are not playable and unless you've got hard counters to the top squads you're in for a long day of losing with almost nothing you can do about it, regardless of the decisions you make during the game.

Us grizzled veterans are not cranky because we hate fun and we hate X-Wing, we're cranky because we hate that X-Wing, a game we dearly love, is not fun anymore*

(*Caveat: not fun unless everyone involved forms a gentleman's agreement to draft up and adhere to some collective contract that says "we hereby agree to not fly X, Y, Z, or ___...... because it's too damned good.  I don't care how good your attitude is, running some off-meta list that literally cannot do damage to Palp Aces because you're relying on normal red dice--what a quaint idea--is simply not fun, and I can't see how even the most casual of players could have fun in such a game.)

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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The game is not for beginners. 

 

Then this game is dead already.

 

 

Are you suggesting that FFG should stop trying to get new players or even casual ones that simply want to have fun playing X-Wing?

 

If FFG took appealing to new players seriously, they would be very upfront about the hurdles (both in cost and experience) to entering a game like X-Wing, but would point out that for players who are interested and willing it is very possible.  Then they should have articles where they explain why certain ships are so popular and good (instead of lying and saying that Six generic TIE Fighters without Crack Shot are some sort of current meta-dominating list), and they'd have an interactive list-builder that would generate a list of products players would need to buy to build the lists they have in mind.  But FFG is unlikely to do that, since they want to give new players the impression that you can be reasonably competitive right out of the gate regardless of what $100 of ships you buy (rather than saying that you'll have to limit yourself to particular ship types and you'll have to shell out money for ships you might not want for the obligatory upgrades), which is the actual case).

So FFG should just tell players that the game has a steep learning curve, you'll lose every game you play for years because you just won't be good enough and all the tournament players won't waste their time on you, and you'll spend an obscene amount of money just collecting the stuff you need to play competitively.

 

Yeah, that'll sell product for sure.

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Boy am I glad I didn't find out about these forums until AFTER I bought into X-Wing! There's a real bunch of buzz kill individuals posting here.

I don't know how you try and get new players into the game, but if your lead-in lines are anything like those posted here then your average must be close to .000.

This reminds me a lot of the slot car craze decades ago. You could go out and drop $25 pay track time and have fun. Then it became competitive. Prizes were awarded and soon your looking at $100 for a silver wire armature. You still needed another $200+ to become competitive. Then it died. The competitive drivers didn't buy enough to keep it going and kids were priced out of the game.

It's the casual players that keep this game afloat and I think the more there are the better health this game will be in. Don't scare a potential new recruit with an $800 buy in.

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The game is not for beginners. It is an arms race. If you start with the beginning set, you will find that you are out-everything. And, it is incredibly expensive. Just to get one of everything released - the playing pieces - will set back a person by over a thousand dollars. And to focus on one faction, it will cost hundreds of dollars.

 

Some of us do not have friends who have the same interest or have a computer that will not work with Vassal. So, the experience will be at the game store. This is hit and miss. Sometimes, other players will be there. Sometimes, they won't be. So, the new player may find themselves never developing the skills to be more than a novice in the game.

 

There are over 500 players in my area, in the Northern California area, based on the Facebook page. These players are asking other players if they will be at this game store or that game store.  As far as i know, and as far I saw, I never saw it where a player suggested that there be games outside the game stores, outside the leagues, outside the tournaments. So, this game is not for people who coming from a background like that described in the second paragraph as they will never have the skills to be successful at the game. 

 

So, no, this game is not for beginners. It is for those who have a well-developed community of like-minded individuals, who have played other miniatures and/or collectible card games, who have the time to learn the game, who have the time to build lists and to play these lists against other players, who have the time to listen and read the accounts of those who have played the game, who have the time to go great distances to play tournaments in distant cities, who have the resources - where it is not a decision over priorities (do I buy this model or do I pay bills?) - to buy the game pieces. This last is important as this is an arms race. If you are playing with the first wave, you will not succeed against someone who is playing one of the more recent waves. There is too much a difference in the game between the first wave and the eighth wave.

 

I've played minatures for years before I found X-Wing. I can tell you that based you this thread I would not have every picked up the game.

 

Us grizzled veterans are not cranky because we hate fun and we hate X-Wing, we're cranky because we hate that X-Wing, a game we dearly love, is not fun anymore*

(*Caveat: not fun unless everyone involved forms a gentleman's agreement to draft up and adhere to some collective contract that says "we hereby agree to not fly X, Y, Z, or ___...... because it's too damned good.  I don't care how good your attitude is, running some off-meta list that literally cannot do damage to Palp Aces because you're relying on normal red dice--what a quaint idea--is simply not fun, and I can't see how even the most casual of players could have fun in such a game.)

This statement right here suggests you need to get out of X-Wing. I am very sorry you feel that way and hope you can find a game that you do enjoy.

 

Posts like these and a few others seem to want to drive away new players.

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In my area, there were attempts to get new players in by having special events where the experienced players taught the game to the beginners. It did not last long. 

 

I do not have the intention of scaring away new players with talk of costs. It is, however, an important consideration. It is the reality of the game. It is present in the article, where the author states the player will come to the realization that they will want more than the core set will provide, in which the author then suggests what to buy. And, FFG offers its own suggestions.

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Another thing that is wrong with these forums are players who act like everything is great and just wonderful and the only issues with the game stem from people's bad attitudes.  I remember playing in Regional tournaments with you four years ago.  I haven't seen you at a tournament in the past three years, so I don't even know if you've played the game at a competitive level in the past five waves (yet you post like an authority on everything).  Let me tell you, down in the (Death Star) trenches **** is nasty.  The vast majority of ships are not playable and unless you've got hard counters to the top squads you're in for a long day of losing with almost nothing you can do about it, regardless of the decisions you make during the game.

Us grizzled veterans are not cranky because we hate fun and we hate X-Wing, we're cranky because we hate that X-Wing, a game we dearly love, is not fun anymore*

(*Caveat: not fun unless everyone involved forms a gentleman's agreement to draft up and adhere to some collective contract that says "we hereby agree to not fly X, Y, Z, or ___...... because it's too damned good.  I don't care how good your attitude is, running some off-meta list that literally cannot do damage to Palp Aces because you're relying on normal red dice--what a quaint idea--is simply not fun, and I can't see how even the most casual of players could have fun in such a game.)

 

 

I play plenty. But, we have a very nice group over here that has developed. But I would not claim to be the top tier player. But that would not be why I haven't gone to Regionals recently. My posts come from experience with these types of games, not actual playing ability. The top tier is not the true health of the game. 

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This is some bad advice, lol.

If you like Rebels, buy a second X-Wing and a Y-Wing!  Uh, it forgot to mention that X-Wings are terrible and that you're Y-Wing is pretty useless unless you buy a Rebel Transport (R3A2), a K-Wing (TLT), or whatever the hell has the autoblaster.

They recommend more basic TIEs (though without Crackshot) or an Interceptor but no Starviper (Autothrusters) or A-Wing/ImpAces (PtL).

The truth is, X-Wing is not a game for beginners, so it's bit of a disingenuous article to make the entry bar sound so darn low.  It's not a game for beginners in the sense that your available lists will always be strictly inferior to the general meta unless someone is willing to invest $300-500 dollars at the outset.  So, no article, they should be afraid to play in tournaments if all they've bought is a Core, a TIE, an Interceptor, and a Slave-1... hah!  Dat Krassis!!  :lol:

 

 

This attitude is one thing that is wrong with this forum, and maybe the game. Getting into the game DOES NOT MEAN GETTING INTO THE COMPETITIVE GAME!!!!

 

This is a very easy game to get into. A $100 investment, and you can have some variety of 100 point squads to play around with. Squads that you can have fun with. 

 

Us grizzled veterans are not cranky because we hate fun and we hate X-Wing, we're cranky because we hate that X-Wing, a game we dearly love, is not fun anymore*

 

 

No, you "grizzled veterans" of a handful of years are cranky because you've stopped seeing X-Wing as a Star Wars game and solely as a competitive scene. You've either forgotten, look over, or choose to ignore the fact that the competitive scene is only half the picture.

 

If you're not having fun playing the game because you're too focused on the competition at tournaments, then you're playing X-Wing for the wrong reasons.

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As very much a new player myself, I didn't find anything wrong with the article. Like the Core Sets, it was meant as a brief introduction, overview, and welcome into the world of X-Wing and Star Wars miniature war gaming. IAs others have said it was not meant for the competitive tournament player.

 

Compared to other miniature games and most other war games, X-wing is both affordable and approachable. I've played RPGs and all sort of table top games for over 30 years but always avoided miniature war gaming because of the cost and intimidation factor. I hated counting cardboard chits in my other war games but I didn't need a permanent table for terrain and battles. Then came X-wing. I stalked these forums and the meta for awhile. I almost jumped in with the release of Scum because I felt that I might be on or near the same level as everyone with the new faction. Ultimately I didn't commit until TFA Core was released. I've taken it very slow and had a lot of fun.

 

Back to tournament play. I understand that losing is part of learning. I must be a good learner because I am great at losing. Anyway, I wish FFG could some how rank players and have championships based on experience or success level. Maybe based on MSRP of your list? For example, a Novice division player might be limited to X-wings, TIE/ln and TIE/fo; have never won a store championship or higher and no upgrades that don't come in the Core Set or X-paks for those ships. A person could go to their first, fifth, or fiftieth tournament with a budget list  and have a possibility of doing well. So we would end up with World/Regional Champs in the Novice, Intermediate, and Open divisions. Or some such. Just brainstorming here.

 

TL:DR. The article was fine for what it was meant for. Probably not written for 95% of the readers/posters here.

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[...]

 

I do not have the intention of scaring away new players with talk of costs. It is, however, an important consideration. 

 

Perhaps not but you state right up front

 

The game is not for beginners. It is an arms race. If you start with the beginning set, you will find that you are out-everything. And, it is incredibly expensive.

 

[...]

 

 

So, no, this game is not for beginners. It is for those who have a well-developed community of like-minded individuals, who have played other miniatures and/or collectible card games, who have the time to learn the game, who have the time to build lists and to play these lists against other players, who have the time to listen and read the accounts of those who have played the game, who have the time to go great distances to play tournaments in distant cities, who have the resources - where it is not a decision over priorities (do I buy this model or do I pay bills?) - to buy the game pieces. This last is important as this is an arms race. If you are playing with the first wave, you will not succeed against someone who is playing one of the more recent waves. There is too much a difference in the game between the first wave and the eighth wave. 

 

To summarize, if I understand you correctly, would be 'This is a very expensive game and is only for serious war/miniature games with experience'.

 

I would agree the game can be that way. I, for one, have purchased more than enough for both sides in a 400 point Epic game. But my point, and many others I suspect, is that is only one of many ways to look at the game.

 

Math-Wing

100 point death match and expanded to Tournament Scene

Squad building - Yes there are some who enjoy finding new synergies more than actually playing.

Epic

Ace, turret, freighters,

Casual 100 points

Casual 60 to 150 points

Casual Epic

Casual scenario driven

Casual campaign driven <--- this is big right now and other have pointed out that you only need one single ships and have no need to spend hundreds.

Casual theme

And if I say casual ace, turret or whatever...

Of course there is always the collector that player only occasionally.

 

Limiting your thoughts of the game to a math-wing, tournament level miniature game that requires hundreds or thousands of dollars is, quite simply a wrong, if not bad, way to characterize this game.

Edited by Ken at Sunrise

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Back to tournament play. I understand that losing is part of learning. I must be a good learner because I am great at losing. Anyway, I wish FFG could some how rank players and have championships based on experience or success level. Maybe based on MSRP of your list? For example, a Novice division player might be limited to X-wings, TIE/ln and TIE/fo; have never won a store championship or higher and no upgrades that don't come in the Core Set or X-paks for those ships. A person could go to their first, fifth, or fiftieth tournament with a budget list  and have a possibility of doing well. So we would end up with World/Regional Champs in the Novice, Intermediate, and Open divisions. Or some such. Just brainstorming here.

 

 

You should hop into the vassal league, which has several rank tiers of players.  The current season is still going but a new one is probably not more than 2 months or so away.  That's the only environment I know of that has any sort of laddering system for x-wing.

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One adapts one's thinking to the community. The community does not adapt to the one.

 

History might disagree. Often the more vocal minority of well spoken can raise and influence a large crowd. One person can and often does influence many.

 

Unlike G+ which shows the ripple effect of your post. You have no idea how many have looked at what was posted here. How many people were influenced by what you or I said and both of us on opposite ends of whether or not a new player should even buy the game. If I read this thread and it's many views as a new player I mostly likely would never have purchased any part of the game other than a few ships for display. I am grateful that I found advise else where.

 

A single voice can create perception and though that perception can become reality. It is natural really.

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One has to wonder...

 

Would this post, X-Wing for kids, have been greeted well with advise and suggestions? Or would the very idea have been dismissed as a foolish?

 

Maybe the problem isn't with the game but this forum after all.

 

It's undoubtedly the forum.

 

LGS X-Wing communities = overall great, fun, and open to all players competitive, casual, old, and new.

FFG X-Wing Forum community = toxic and geared towards competitive play exclusively. Because internet.

Edited by Derpzilla88

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One has to wonder...

 

Would this post, X-Wing for kids, have been greeted well with advise and suggestions? Or would the very idea have been dismissed as a foolish?

 

Maybe the problem isn't with the game but this forum after all.

 

Don't be too hard on the community here, we have some grumpy grumps but I have asked questions like this from time to time and gotten plenty of good and helpful responses.

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X-wing is absolutely a game for beginners.

I can't imagine how you can fool yourself into thinking you weren't one at some point.

Eh. it's a lot different if you started in Wave 1 and spent ~$50-100 twice a year on each new Wave and have been playing in tournaments for four years.  That's not even comparable to trying to start out now from square zero.  To say otherwise is, I think, optimistically naive.  It's like starting to play Magic now: sure, it can be done, but it takes a hell of a lot of commitment and investment to catch up to vets who have been playing for years.  You can't just buy a a few packs and go expect to win.  This isn't a bad thing, it's just the nature of the game.  But to publish an article that says the opposite is, I think, questionable.

Atlanta has first hand evidence of guys stumbling up at regionals, saying "whoa this looks fun what is it" and then being regional competitive before the next year.

So get out of here with all that mess.

Wait, do you think that player accomplished that with minimal purchases and without committing themselves?

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One adapts one's thinking to the community. The community does not adapt to the one.

 

 

 

Us grizzled veterans are not cranky because we hate fun and we hate X-Wing, we're cranky because we hate that X-Wing, a game we dearly love, is not fun anymore*

 

Based on these two posts, I can only assume that you both think the thrust of X-Wing recruitment would be to turn new, happy X-Wing virgins into raving, hating lunatics.

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Sekac,

It is something that has to be considered if you want to get into the game.

In this game, it is best for the player to select a faction, then get the best cards and ships. Each wave introduces new concepts to the game, so it becomes a matter of urgency for the player to get the best card and/or ships from that wave that benefits their faction. This costs money for the cards are spread across the sets. Sometimes, to get the best card, a player has to buy a set outside their faction. Arms race is by its nature expensive. There will be people who, upon learning this game, will be put off by the reality that they will have to spend much more than the cost of the core set to build a solid foundation for a faction. This is briefly raised in the article, where the author says the new player will want to get new ships immediately.

And I know what a beginner is? A beginner is someone new to the game and to the mechanics of said game.

Of course considering cost is important before someone takes the plunge, but it is 100% up to the new player how far they want to plunge.

My friend and I got into this game at wave 1. He soon stopped because he wasn't interested in an ever-expanding game, and I didn't because I was hooked.

He's got his core set, and wave 1 expansions and is essentially just a part of his board game collection. He began the game and enjoyed it. He chose how much he was willing to invest and left it at that.

Your arms race theory is based entirely with the assumption that every potential beginner feels the need to optimize their ships. That's an incorrect assumption. But for people that DO want to optimize, their is a cost associated with that.

It's their choice though.

Edited by Sekac

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