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Time to think about leaving the game for me, see also Interdictor

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Just left X-wing because of tractor beams, Palpatine, and a long list of other 'because I said so' mechanics. Just played my first game against new Imperial control with the works. And yeah I'm thinking it's time to consider moving on. Game in question was definitely nonstandard in terms of setup and points and what not. But the taste left in my mouth by the mechanics is not going to be different based on how much of it there is.

Start of game, him: okay, if you deploy on this HALF of the board, you will be speed zero.

Me: okay, uh, let's see, these are our but this guy is zero, turn one navigated to get going, but that did stop my cool trick so, neat.

Turn two, him: okay this ship is going faster by one and this one slower by one

Me: crap well, okay, do this and this, that kinda works, not where I want to be though. Oh well. Activate here then,...

Him: he's going to be speed zero

Me:...m'kay... Sure... Well that's a wrench. Well he done. Now this guy,...

Him: change your top dial on Yavaris...

Me:... Alright then he wasted his turn. Your go.

And that's a accurate snap shot of how our game went. You know we called it a strategy game because we had to come up with a strategy. It defeats the purpose when your opponent has more control over your assets than you, with out actually putting into it. He never spent a command dial, command token, defense token, shield, damage, had to roll a die to succeed, spend an activation, discard a card, or anything that would of constituted a 'cost'. And there was never something I could have done to prevent it, like take a damage, spend a token, exhaust an upgrade, nothing.

Way to go FFG, you have failed me again. We'll see what comes in the next couple weeks.

/Rant

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You know I can't stand people who decide to quit as soon as they lose a game! As the famous Malcon Reynolds might say "What a Whiner!" I honestly don't know why I am eating time on this post, other than this is my sit on the John time! Bottomline dude grow a pair! Figure out what your opponent did to you and learn to counter it. It is that simple. Nothing is unbeatable, if you are going to quit at the first sign of failure then you probably suck at life!

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The only way I can think of for an empire fleet to slow your speed on turn 2 is with the Fleet Ambush objective.

 

I am a bit concerned about the Empire movement control builds. There are counters that completely nullify them but if you don't have one of them and you face a full-on Interdictor control build ... you are pretty much screwed on movement, and if you are throwing black dice or need to get to close range, you're not going to win.

 

This means every tourney build will have to play one of the few means of combating Interdictior control or just pray they don't encounter one in  tourney (not a good idea to hope you don't play something). Since there aren't many options to combat Interdictor control, I'm hoping tourney builds don't devolve into seeing the same stuff all of the time. I love the idea of the Interdictors but I'm not fond that they slow the ships of an already slow-moving game. Time will tell, but right now I'm a bit worried.

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Are you sure you were making him pay his costs? Admiral Titus only works the first round on 1 ship. Admiral Konstantine only works if you are near 2 medium or large ships. G8 must be exhausted to use, and then must be within distance 5. Gravity shift reroute only works on obstacles, and then only in the setup phase. G7 doesn't work on "half" the board only at distance 1-3, that's about 10" out of a 6' table.

Sounds like you're either exaggerating quite a bit or you didn't actually hold him to what he is actually able to do. When you say the game was "nonstandard" I get you didn't play 400 points, but what is "and what not"?

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I hear the OP. Attack Wing introduced a lot of similar mechanics which made me throw up my hands and feel it was futile to play a list (it was a Romulan list with upgrades to really nerf my attacks).

 

However, the thing about these upgrades is that even when operating at full force, they don't inhibit attacks or defense. Slicer tools KO'ing your fighter commands? Invest in a Wing Commander for your carriers (Sucks you have to lose Raymus or someone, but if you REALLY want the control...). Don't like Slicer tools parked right there? Hit the Flotilla with multiple fighters, or take H9s to pop those overpriced balloons.

 

The hardest things are going to be fighting against the G8s (which are expensive) and Konstantine. For this, you need to accept that you have to charge the enemy to destroy these things. One of the reasons I'm leaning on Liberty power over INTs is that the Liberty doesn't care about going speed 3 or 2... as long as it is pointed at the target, it will wreck whatever it is facing.

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Garm is an easy way to overcome G7's.  Even if you start at speed 0, your token and nav dial turn 1 have you going at speed 2 out of the gate. 

 

As folks have been pointing out, there are plenty of ways around these control shenanigans.  Yes they're annoying, but what's a game without some challenge? 

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Dude/tte. Seriously? I played at least 8 games last weekend and won one. Draws and losses all around for the rest, and I had a blast doing it. Well, except for getting rammed to death by a Liberty sitting on the station with engine techs. That was cheesy. Anyway, the game is changing and that is exciting to me.

Everything you listed has a counter/tactic to combat it. And, I also don't know how it's possible Konstantine was affecting speed on round 2.

In another thread, I thought a 2 Interdictor fleet could be **** near game-breaking, but I'm still going to figure out how to beat it. I just have to get better.

If you want to sell your stuff let me know via PM.

Edited by RogueCommander

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I just got severely beaten tonight, a 10 point win under the new tournament consortia, against an Imperial control fleet. Believe me, it was frustrating.

But it was beatable. I could have done a number of things to stop it, starting with smarter objective selection all the way to playing aggressively to the point of recklessness.

You have new options to counter the Slicer/Interdictor/Tractor Beam combo. You can out shoot, out fly, and out play all three options with a bit of practice and smart fleet design. Notably, all but one control option is dependent on range to target, so you can maneuver around or outside of the effects to mitigate their usefulness.

Armada is a game of ruthless strategy, and people don't always appreciate the "ruthless" part of the game. Don't be afraid to take actions that nullify enemy actions. Unlike in X-Wing, you usually have only six turns to enact most of your strategy so every piece you do get is really crucial to victory.

Edited by thecactusman17

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Are you sure you were making him pay his costs? Admiral Titus only works the first round on 1 ship. Admiral Konstantine only works if you are near 2 medium or large ships. G8 must be exhausted to use, and then must be within distance 5. Gravity shift reroute only works on obstacles, and then only in the setup phase. G7 doesn't work on "half" the board only at distance 1-3, that's about 10" out of a 6' table.

Sounds like you're either exaggerating quite a bit or you didn't actually hold him to what he is actually able to do. When you say the game was "nonstandard" I get you didn't play 400 points, but what is "and what not"?

I was thinking that it might of been a 3x3 game at 400.. .

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Ozzel is your friend! And i'm not joking. If you are in an Imp meta play Ozzel with ISD/ISDs. Or Tarkin for the Nav token as well as tokens/liasons soft/hard counter to slicer tools.

Edited by Trizzo2

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Remember, this is a new wave with new ideas and concepts. This means it will take testing and time to learn. That is fine. It takes time and patience. It will be a pain to learn but remember, Armada is not an easy game. It takes learning and testing to understand what is actually happening.

If you are willing, share the list you played and that your opponent played. Tell us your Tactics and what you did, what annoyed you the most and what you did to counter that.

Oh, another question, did you ask your opponent what his cards did?

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We were playing a larger build limit 500pts so he had two Vic's and a dictator. As part of a campaign we had a set objective, dangerous territory, and two sets of Obstacles, and he had initiative due to another campaign rule. I only said it's time to consider leaving. I have to see what it does in standard, in fact I thought I made that clear, but the concept design is the issue. I only lost by 75 in the end and was a damage away from destroying another victory. Having thoroughly studied the cards before releases I felt pretty good about preemptively mitigating their effects. I only took three damage from the objective penalty and didn't have any turns that I felt my maneuvers were adversely affected in relevant ways by the added Obstacles. I honed alot of skill in X-wing on plotting/ planning for Obstacles and it showed in this game. Often gaining more advantage out of the situation than not. He only had two more objective tokens all said and done.

If the best counter play is bring upgrades that don't help you unless you face 'x', that's not counter play. I can't control that 'play' after I sit down to the table. And the counters in question are cover ups for bad skill in every other use. If I planned wrong I should lose, the upgrades that counter this stuff are for if planned wrong, so if I've done everything right they don't help me. Best counter I had was one veteran captain. But he's just added effect in any game, so that's no down side.

So he deployed his gravity well token in the middle of my right side deployment zone so range three in either direction is effectively the side, I had room to put a corvette on the outside, which proved to be the right idea, but not enough. Independence deployed in the trap, which was a surprise to him, but planned for on my part, and would of worked out if he hasn't locked me down on maneuvers. If only one turn I could have moved at my set speed one one more time I could have adjusted my arcs enough to deal. But two turns locked down and one trapped in a grapple saw to that.

The squadrons are unaffected by all the grav stuff so I leveraged that well against him but despite having massive advantage there it proved to little against his concentrated counter fire, especially when I could not get my own AA guns into range because of his tricks.

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Actually, Leia always helps. Raymus is always a bonus, the Liasons work well with a comm net ship and even if they are dead cards half the time the other half will make you happy you brought them.

You played a double obstacle game at 500 points? Interesting.

It sounds like you stuck to the battle plan more than being flexible. You refrence not being able to support your squadrons with AA fire as well.

How did his VSD's get into range so fast to use their tractor beams and kozantine? What other counters did you have planned?

I think know we are missing more variables. Such as why you deployed into the grave well.

Oh, and how the heck did he get a slicer tools ship to your big ship so fast?

Edited by Lyraeus

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I actually bent alot more than I wanted to. Turn one I gave up more than a few tricks by having all my ships navigate, all getting tokens or setting up bad choices for his tricks. I planned a beautiful turn three when I saw through his trick and stuck him with two bad choices, either I go where I wanted or he slipped from his own position. And that played out perfect. I reacted properly to him trying a planned retreat with the Interdictor and thank the force I did because he managed to stop my flagship from closing on it, but me pulling additional fighters in to the fight managed to just barely down the Interdictor.

I have pictures of the match, I'll try to get them up here.

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So you only lost by 75 and it was a 500 point game with a set objective and he automatically got to go first cuz campain rules?

 

 

You have totally convinced me the new wave 3/4 imperials are broken.

I never said broken. I have said quite clearly that I am against the concept of the design of mechanics that are non interactive, and arbitrarily alter decisions that were once solely in my hands.

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I just got severely beaten tonight, a 10 point win under the new tournament consortia, against an Imperial control fleet. Believe me, it was frustrating.

But it was beatable. I could have done a number of things to stop it, starting with smarter objective selection all the way to playing aggressively to the point of recklessness.

You have new options to counter the Slicer/Interdictor/Tractor Beam combo. You can out shoot, out fly, and out play all three options with a bit of practice and smart fleet design. Notably, all but one control option is dependent on range to target, so you can maneuver around or outside of the effects to mitigate their usefulness.

Armada is a game of ruthless strategy, and people don't always appreciate the "ruthless" part of the game. Don't be afraid to take actions that nullify enemy actions. Unlike in X-Wing, you usually have only six turns to enact most of your strategy so every piece you do get is really crucial to victory.

 

First game against a Konsy lockdown fleet, I was running 3 Cracken AFs. I mean, I had to stay at speed 3 to get my admiral's bonus...that really sucked, but it wasn't impossible to play against.

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I have a question. . . When has a 75 point loss been "beaten badly"?

Not poking fun or anything, I am actually curious. If my opponent had me dead to rights and I was able to drop that down to a 75 point loss I would be happy with myself.

It sounds like the game hinged on your MC80C (Command Cruiser so Home Home etc) was just stuck and that hurt a lot. One thing to consider is a Flotilla with Comm Net. It would allow you to pass off a Nav Token Turn 1 to a ship stuck in the field and get it moving!

See, interactive and mass utility! ^_^

Edited by Lyraeus

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I don't think the OP was necessarily saying the games broken, but instead expressing his sense of helplessness against the new control mechanics. But even then I think his analysis is off.

If the best counter play is bring upgrades that don't help you unless you face 'x', that's not counter play. I can't control that 'play' after I sit down to the table. And the counters in question are cover ups for bad skill in every other use. If I planned wrong I should lose, the upgrades that counter this stuff are for if planned wrong, so if I've done everything right they don't help me. Best counter I had was one veteran captain. But he's just added effect in any game, so that's no down side.

As others have mentioned, there certainly are tactical counters to everything your opponent had. Don't be in range of the effects. Don't get close to two med ships simultaneously. Don't let flotillas with slicer tools within range 3 of your ships.

Are they the best counters? No, not necessarily. But then again the "best" counters may not be things you want to take. The best counter to Squadrons? Other squadrons. But you may not have or want them, for example. Here, the best counter to slicer tools is one of any number of officers (skilled first officer, support officer, a liaison, etc.....there are at least eight to choose from!!!) that FFG has provided you.

But you have chosen to ignore those options, apparently because of some sense that you should always play a perfect game, or suffer trying? C'mon man, vet captain is the same as all the rest. It's insurance...if you've planned a perfect game you won't need vet captain either. Skilled first officer is one point. One measly point, and it'll allow Yavaris to do its thing when it needs to. Is one points worth of insurance too much for you?

Look, I get what you're trying to say. If your opponent could just reach across the table and prevent you from playing all the time, the game would be no fun. But that's hardly the case...he can only do that if you let him.

Can you honestly say that there is absolutely nothing you could have done that would have prevented your opponents control hijinks?

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Great pictures, looks like a fun battle....

But you had more deployments than your opponent. You put down your MC80 last....and you put it in a position where it was unavoidably going to be within range 5 of 3 medium ships all game.....with Konstatine on the board.

Not to be too harsh, but I think you had a hand in your cruiser's fate....

;)

Edited by Maturin

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