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baterax

Using a saber from afar

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Uhm … move is an action. You have one action per turn. Making a lightsaber attack is another action. Does this even work out in raw without the saber throw talent?

If you read the thread this has been covered.

There is ample precedent for using Skills (Actions) in conjunction with the Force (Action).

For instance using the Move Power with the Control upgrade to damage with objects, you combine your use of a Force Action (Move Power) with a Ranged attack Action. So yes, that portion is completely allowable RAW. If you were using the subject Control Upgrade "as intended" to pick a lock for instance, how else could you do it, if you couldn't combine it with a Skullduggery Skill Action check. Logic follows you "could" combine it with a Lightsaber Skill Action check. The rules/mechanics problems arise after that.

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Uhm … move is an action. You have one action per turn. Making a lightsaber attack is another action. Does this even work out in raw without the saber throw talent?

If you read the thread this has been covered.

There is ample precedent for using Skills (Actions) in conjunction with the Force (Action).

For instance using the Move Power with the Control upgrade to damage with objects, you combine your use of a Force Action (Move Power) with a Ranged attack Action. So yes, that portion is completely allowable RAW. If you were using the subject Control Upgrade "as intended" to pick a lock for instance, how else could you do it, if you couldn't combine it with a Skullduggery Skill Action check. Logic follows you "could" combine it with a Lightsaber Skill Action check. The rules/mechanics problems arise after that.

 

 

Feel free to correct me at any point.

 

I can not fight with a lightsaber with just my hands. Do as the rules say. Speaking of "as the rules say", where do they mentioned that the last update allows for skill checks? The first one explicitly states that you do a combined check which is as far s I know a special case and not a general option open for players to use on everything. You basically need to have a talent or power to tell you to do a combined check. It what page 280 in FaD literally states: "Some Force powers and Force talents require the character to make a Force power check that is combined with a skill check. […] Relevant powers and talents specifically state when a combined check should take place. […] This entire process counts as single check."

 

I could see circumventing the two actions problem via committing force dice first, but then you still the limitation that you can only do fine manipulation of items which allow to do whatever a character can do with his hands. So making a slow cut sounds fine, making a skill check on lightsaber sounds still not fine as this need way more than just your hands, starting with the strength and speed of your arms and following the rest of the muscle chain till your toes. 

 

Sure logic suggest that there are some ways to fight with a lightsaber via the force, but we actually have talents for that already, we certainly do not need to make up our own rules for that. I am trying to convince my GM currently that building a super-laser weapon based on 5 kyber crystals and a composite vehicle sized laser is completely logical too, but I have no rules to back me up on increasing the damage by magnitudes either even when it is totally logical. At least in my case the rules are not suggestion that it is done differently.  :D

 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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The more I think about it, the more this sounds less like a Force power, and more like a signature ability. I'm quite tempted to write one up.

Given the ability's most prominent user was Darth Traya, who strikes me as being a Consular at base, perhaps attach it to the Consular career?

 

Consular could work. I could also see a Mystic doing this. A person who's so in touch with the Force that they refuse to wield their weapon like a savage.

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I remember talking with Jay Little about the Dice Mechanics of WFRP (which is the same concept, just different dice and symbols, for Star Wars). An example he gave was: "Running and jumping off a second floor balcony, grabbing the chandelier and swinging off it, then dropping down and landing on the bad guy trying to run out the door." He specifically mentioned that the above scenario would be multiple checks and dice rolls to achieve in other RPGS, but in this game it'd be one roll. ONE ROLL. This has been a hardline I've held since playing WFRP and throughout the life of SWRPG. You base your pool on the most prevalent skill and attribute and then add/subtract modifiers and difficulty. This is a narrative game, and a lot of this thread seems to be taking things back to a "Each step is an Action". With this in mind, the idea of Combined Checks are not the purview of "Talents Only" or where called for specifically. 

 

As for Force Move and Fine Manipulation, what does it hurt to allow someone who invested the XP in this power and also into a campaign and character enough to get there and have a Lightsaber, only to be told NO? Saber Throw? Saber Throw is an instant Talent Action that allows one to make a simple test to attack with a Lightsaber in a boomerang fashion. This is someone utilizing the Force to use a Lightsaber "hands free". It shouldn't be an easy thing. Lightsaber check with Force Dice added, requires the Pips to activate the power and get it out to the range they need immediately, all the while the Lightsaber check should be based on Ranged Difficulty. Hell, I'd love my players to make Lightsaber checks willingly for 3-4 Difficulty instead of the base 2 they normally do. Oh, and the saber is "out of their hands", so no Parry and Reflect talents? Sign Me Up! Use the optional Move sustaining rules and take on more cost to a player (actually, unless they wanted the saber to fall to the ground, this would be required). There is a lot stacked against the player for this action to take place. 

 

None of this is game breaking. None of this is outside the description of things written. Using Move is a sustained, multiple Turn/Round idea whereas Saber Throw is an instant "out and back" (and Throw has less penalties attached). 

 

{EDIT ADDED}

As for the "You don't use your hands to attack" idea....true. In life, we don't do many simple things without utilizing other parts of our body. So yes, swinging a Saber would including our body into the attack. However, the Force isn't something real that we can attribute and compare with game mechanics. In fact, the idea of the 'Animated/Dancing Sword' is only more plausible with a Lightsaber as there is no need for force behind the blade, as the saber blade does all the work really. With a normal blade, you need to put force behind it to cut, with a 'Plasma Blade', the force applied is only to move and orient the blade, as the plasma does the cutting.

Edited by ApocalypseZero

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After the recent O66 ep, and reading the mest recent page of posts here in this thread I have come around to the idea of using weapons at range with the Move power, Its not just limited to Lightsabers either; pistols? sure, grenades? why not!

 

Here is how i will run it going forward:

 

  • The Difficulty is based on the attack action, so Lightsaber attacks will be Average Difficulty.
  • The Attribute is Willpower but the skill is whatever the Weapon itself would use. In the case of Lightsabers this benefits Niman Disciples, which to me is very thematic to that Form.
  • Its a Combat check, so all the normal penalties apply, PLUS things like environmental setback due to dark/smoke etc.
  • Using Multiple weapons uses the Autofire rules as noted in Move, with the limitation to only be able to hit once per weapon.
  • Targeting Multiple enemies must be declared prior to rolling.
  • A Force User must activate the base power, Range Upgrades as needed to reach the FURTHEST target, and Magnitude to use multiple weapons in this way.
  • Damage is based on the Weapons themselves.
  • Even if making a melee attack at range I will still call this a ranged class of attack, therefore requiring an UPGRADE to the difficulty if the target is engaged with an ally. This also gives me the GM the option to spend a Despair on this check to hit that engaged Ally or other engaged NPC's instead of the intended target.
  • To Maintain this power I will require a number of Force Dice to be committed equal to the number of Pips spent on activating the power. (I could be convinced to keep this at just a single Force Pip, but I'm not sure)
  • Further attacks in subsequent turns will require combat checks as normal.
  • Moving the weapons will require a maneuver to "concentrate on relocating them" but they can move to anywhere within the original range of the force power activation. this also means its a Maneuver to return the weapons to the Force Users hands.

 

I think the cons of this balance out the pros.

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After the recent O66 ep, and reading the mest recent page of posts here in this thread I have come around to the idea of using weapons at range with the Move power, Its not just limited to Lightsabers either; pistols? sure, grenades? why not!

 

Here is how i will run it going forward:

 

  • The Difficulty is based on the attack action, so Lightsaber attacks will be Average Difficulty.
  • The Attribute is Willpower but the skill is whatever the Weapon itself would use. In the case of Lightsabers this benefits Niman Disciples, which to me is very thematic to that Form.
  • Its a Combat check, so all the normal penalties apply, PLUS things like environmental setback due to dark/smoke etc.
  • Using Multiple weapons uses the Autofire rules as noted in Move, with the limitation to only be able to hit once per weapon.
  • Targeting Multiple enemies must be declared prior to rolling.
  • A Force User must activate the base power, Range Upgrades as needed to reach the FURTHEST target, and Magnitude to use multiple weapons in this way.
  • Damage is based on the Weapons themselves.
  • Even if making a melee attack at range I will still call this a ranged class of attack, therefore requiring an UPGRADE to the difficulty if the target is engaged with an ally. This also gives me the GM the option to spend a Despair on this check to hit that engaged Ally or other engaged NPC's instead of the intended target.
  • To Maintain this power I will require a number of Force Dice to be committed equal to the number of Pips spent on activating the power. (I could be convinced to keep this at just a single Force Pip, but I'm not sure)
  • Further attacks in subsequent turns will require combat checks as normal.
  • Moving the weapons will require a maneuver to "concentrate on relocating them" but they can move to anywhere within the original range of the force power activation. this also means its a Maneuver to return the weapons to the Force Users hands.

 

I think the cons of this balance out the pros.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I would handle it, though I would probably keep the force dice results from round-to round as they were maintaining it, so if they had to use Dark Side pips to activate in the first place, they would still be drawing Conflict from them each turn, though I wouldn't require any additional Destiny Point flips. I would also be inclined to give it an upgrade off the bat, and require that base difficulty cannot fall below 2 (because if so, if they were in Short range there would be little reason not to do this). I would probably use the two-weapon fighting rules instead of the autofire rules for attacking with multiple weapons, however.  Talents are allowed on a case-by-case basis as to whether they could apply, and I might throw in Setbacks for checks/Boosts for opponents, as appropriate.

Also, I would probably be okay if they used the Hurl Control Upgrade with the attack, with these caveats:

You must be able to spend the necessary pips

It can only be done during the initial attack, not if you're maintaining it with committed Force dice

All it can do is add an additional 5 damage

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