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pendrake71

"Rule of Three" and Ammunition

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Well, I am open to any suggestions on discouraging/penalizing poor-judgement Players on carrying excessive "free" ammunition.

 

Serious &/or constructive suggestions, please.  Not thread-derailing jokes.

Edited by pendrake71

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I'd make it independent from whether a player has paid for it or not.

 

Any grenade or piece of ammunition has to be worn somewhere, which means either pockets or maglocks. There are only so many pockets on a vest, and you could rule that maglocked magazines above a certain "safe" amount would simply come with a risk to fall off during combat or otherwise excessive movement.

 

Another solution would be to simply have the Quartermaster say no. The Deathwatch isn't some Ork mercenary camp but a military force governed by common sense and regulations.

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The problem with all this logic is that it ends with your Space Marine carrying 200-250 ammo as standard load. SpecOps soldier on the high importance mission, during which he may be left without supplies for days, weeks or even months take less ammo than average SWAT soldier take for half-day mission in his own town?

I. Don't. Buy. It.

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Technically, I'd argue Post-Crusade Space Marines are SWAT. They're supposed to go in, break something, and leave as the real military (Guard) takes their place. Smash and Grab, if you will. ;)

 

For supplies on multi-day assignments, what my group did was keep stuff in the Thunderhawk, which functioned pretty well as a mobile base. A Rhino APC can fill the same role, too.

 

Yes, modern day infantry carries 6-8 or even more magazines. Modern day infantry also isn't supposed to carry pistols, or chainsaws with which to rip enemies apart in close combat. Rather, contemporary troops are trained to stay in cover and, if need be, persist through firefights that last hours on end. Astartes generally do not fight this way, but rather charge the enemy position directly, as they are all about Shock and Awe, which should significantly cut down on engagement time and ammo consumption. Perhaps keeping these differences in mind may help alleviate the "common sense" issue at least somewhat.

 

Alternatively, you may just have to swallow the bitter pill and design your own version of a Space Marine who comes with a lot more gear strapped to their armour. A bit like the new Deathwatch minis ... I'm actually surprised they did not give them maglock clips or magazine pouches, too. Feels like an oversight given the rest.  :huh:

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Technically, I'd argue Post-Crusade Space Marines are SWAT. They're supposed to go in, break something, and leave as the real military (Guard) takes their place.

 

It's a matter of interpretation, as always. For me Space Marines are GRU Spetsnaz, while Adeptus Arbites are Internal Forces Spetsnaz, and SWAT analogue is elite forces of local Enforcers/PDFs.

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The imperium really needs to develop a bag of holding....

If they had a weird tech device tgat was like a mini tessaract storage unit it would solve all this.

Ok, thinking cap time.... Suppose a KT in tge field had a special stealth cloaked satellite left in orbit by their drop ship? Suppose they carried a remote teleport operator tgat could trigger tge satt to beam down some preloaded supply pods? That would facilitate in between combat requipibg. As for a combat, you're stuck with what you bring.

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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Now that you mention it, why beam? I could indeed picture a drop-pod loaded only with ammunition, medical supplies, ration bars and repair cement. ;)

 

Oh, what's that, you're inside a Space Hulk? Well, better start walking towards the outer walls where the pod will crash, and don't waste too much ammo on the way ...

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looking at the above miniature, I could maybe see him slapping clips on his thighs and lower legs. Possibly akward, but, hey, deathwatch. If we assume he can carry 8x clips for the minimags, that's a total of 3 clips worth of ammo if each minimag has 7 rounds. 1 set in the gun and 2x reloads in the pouches.

If he just has extra clips on his thighs he had 3 regular loads or any type, plus the equivalent number of rounds in his fire select clips which might be a better term than miniclips.

Add in a bolt pistol possibly on his belt or a lower leg holster with like 14 rounds and 2 reloads for that possibly on belt. Pistol and knife on 'boot holsters'.

So he gets 6x28 rounds for the bolter and 3x14 for the pistol. If you go by the miniature and keep it reasonable.

As is, we kinda have to modify the rules to make them in line with the miniatures and art or we ignore the minis and art and go with the RAW.

As long as your group is comfy with your deciscion and has fun with it you made the right one.

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Another way to look at this is that in most modern wars, several thousand rounds are expended per enemy killed. Most are fired in suppression fire, speculative fire, firing at a false target, etc. I searched the net and found various reffs to like in ww2 it was supposedly 20,000 rounds fired per enemy killed. Some sites claimed that in vietnam it was like 200,000 rounds fired per enemy killed by the army, 50,000 rounds per enemy for the marines.

There are estimates that in afghanistan the allies have fired ~250,000 bullets per taliban/insurgent killed.

It is largely agreed that asides from snipers most foot soldiers fire a huge number of rounds to kill a single enemy. There are those who dispute the above claims, of course, so even if we assume that all of the above are false by a factor of 10,  just to make a point, we see that in ww2 only 1 in 2000 bullets fired killed an enemy, one in 20,000 fired killed an enemy in vietnam if you were army and 1 in 5,000 killed an enemy if you were a marine.

Now snipers in vietnam, generally, has about a 1.3 to 1 kill ratio per bullet fired. But being a sniper is vastly different from being a foot soldier.

So, by any reasonable metric the vast majority of shots fired by soldiers do not hit an enemy, so they have to carry a lot and fire a lot to get one hit since most of their fire isn't even well aimed or actually fired at a person, but instead used for suppression, shooting at shadows, etc.

Now we can assume that probably the IG are similar. I imagine mostly the IG uses suppression lasgun fire, they fire at false targets a lot, panic fire, etc. But when your ammo comes from possibly nuclear generators and sunlight, or anything that can produce electricity, (I imagine on planets with poor sunlight but lots of wind there are special mini man portable windmills squads of IG use to recharge ammo packs.) it's not so horrible to waste a lotta ammo.

Space marines, OTOH, are a whole different story. Each bolt is of course hand made, blessed by priests, inscribed with litanies of accuracy, anointed in the blood of a sacrificed loyal citizen to ensure loyalty ;), etc.... So marines practice fire discipline you can't even imagine. They don't carry a cartload of ammo, they don't fire like 100 bolts to get one kill, they make da-yum sure they have a target, they don't panic fire at shadows or leaves blowing in the wind, etc. They aim, between their bio enhanced senses and reflexes, massive training, bolter targeting systems and helmet vision enhancers, and when they fire the usually hit something. Plus when a lot of targets take one bolt, they go down.

So, yeah, a space marine carries a lot less ammo than we might expect a modern gropo to carry, but, oh, he gets more effect out of each shot than modern mikey mudfoot could even dream of, So again, less ammo but more effective fire means they still work in some vaguely realistic sense. But then this in 40k, where expressing concerns about 'realism' gets you labeled a heretic.

And that's just ordinary space marines, mind you. Nnow we talk about the ones who make the cut for deathwatch...!

Yeah, they may carry less than 200 rounds but still get a lot of effect our of those rounds, and that's not counting the gits they just kill with knives or fists because they aren't worth a bolt.... Seriously, have you eve=r wondered how many normal people a marine could kill with his knife and hands and feet if he wewre locked in a large room with them? How many unarmed humans would it take to bring down one space marine? Assuming the big doof wore his helmet..

 

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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The problem with that is that if I recall correctly, those statistics count all the rounds expended in training - which you do when being trained initially, and regularly from then on to keep your skill up, using lots of rounds doing it.

 

Also, how does the "rule of three" interact with the bolded, from the Errata?

 

Character receive unlimited amount of standard ammunition for their standard issue weapons and their Signature Wargear weapons per Mission, and do not need to keep track of the remaining standard ammunition or its weight. At the GM’s discretion, the characters may run out of standard ammunition in situations where resupply is not available. As a general rule, the GM may opt to use the “rule of three,” meaning that each Space Marine has three reloads for each ranged weapon unless otherwise noted.

 

 

Would that mean that the "rule of three" is only for when the Marines are cut off from resupply? And considering the 'black ops smash and grab' tendencies of the Deathwatch, what does "cut off from resupply" mean, exactly? Does it happen on most missions, when your team has gone in to secure an objective? Or does it only count when the ship that carried you to your mission location has had to bug out or has been destroyed, and a supply Drop Pod was not dropped with you?

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I think it all means we need a second edition of deatwatch.

But uf they do, i urge snd beseech FFG to do what GW refuses to do snd respect their customers! If they do a new version if DW please make a ''rules only version available for anyone who own DW1e so we do not have to buy the same background, art, NPCs etc we already have!

That's one thing thst madr me finally drop GW: always a new edition a new super expensive rulebook with like 15% rules abd the rest just expensive artwork abd the exact same xxxxing background we've all heard before in every edition. Blah blah dsrk age of technology....blah blah chaos.....blah blah the emperor...blah blah the primarchs....blah blah the space marines.... Blah blah....horus...blah blah the heresy.....blah blah the same exact stuff we've bought and paid for over and over again.

One reason i dumped gw was i refused to buy the new ''rulesbook'' with like less than 20% rules and the same old same old again for like 70$.

I would like to encourage FFG to respect it's gamers by making a special rules only version of DW2 available with little art or background included forr a very fair price while also making a whole new hardback version for new players with all the BG and art.

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Would that mean that the "rule of three" is only for when the Marines are cut off from resupply?

 

Huh, I had forgotten about that bolded part. Well, the "Rule of Three" is noted as an optional alternative, so it's up to each GM individually just what balance between "40k dungeon crawl" and "pseudo-realism" they want to hit.

 

The term "resupply" in this context, I think, refers to characters running out of reloads carried on their person as part of a dramatic scene where they would be forced to either retreat or fight in melee, or at the very least conserve their ammo.

 

"As you check your remaining ammunition in anticipation of the enemy assault, you note that each of you only has a single clip left."

Edited by Lynata

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you know the funny thing is that wargsmes usually don't make yiu account for all ammo but rpgs usually do. Personaly i want a more fixed ammo situation in a rpg to force role playing.

So, you get attacked by a mob of cultist fanatics with snub pistols and knives. There's 20 of them. Whst do you do?

Ok, since they can't really hurt us we yell 'For the emperor!', rush into them and kill them with armored fists, kicks and knives to save ammo for worthier targets, alright?

Ok, but my assault marine fires up his chainsword and bisects a few.

Yeah, and my techmarine smashes a few with this servo arm for practice. And whacks a couple with his omnissiah axe.

My librarian decides to fry a few with his awesome psyker powers.

Ok so 20 dead cultists a minute later. No ammo expended. One marine suffers a minor wound from a cultist firing into the neck of his armor at point blank range with a .44 magnum basically. The apocathery puts a smiling emperor bandaid on his booboo. The spacewolf assault marine slips and falls on his ass from stepping a pile of slimey intestines he spilled when he cut a cultist in half. The dark angel tac marine laughs at him.

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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you know the funny thing is that wargsmes usually don't make yiu account for all ammo but rpgs usually do. Personaly i want a more fixed ammo situation in a rpg to force role playing.

So, you get attacked by a mob of cultist fanatics with snub pistols and knives. There's 20 of them. Whst do you do?

Ok, since they can't really hurt us we yell 'For the emperor!', rush into them and kill them with armored fists, kicks and knives to save ammo for worthier targets, alright?

Ok, but my assault marine fires up his chainsword and bisects a few.

Yeah, and my techmarine smashes a few with this servo arm for practice. And whacks a couple with his omnissiah axe.

My librarian decides to fry a few with his awesome psyker powers.

Ok so 20 dead cultists a minute later. No ammo expended. One marine suffers a minor wound from a cultist firing into the neck of his armor at point blank range with a .44 magnum basically. The apocathery puts a smiling emperor bandaid on his booboo. The spacewolf assault marine slips and falls on his ass from stepping a pile of slimey intestines he spilled when he cut a cultist in half. The dark angel tac marine laughs at him.

And the Devastator stands there awkwardly while they do this, keeping an eye out for any actual threats that might take advantage? Or does he wade in with his combat knife?

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So, yeah, a space marine carries a lot less ammo than we might expect a modern gropo to carry, but, oh, he gets more effect out of each shot than modern mikey mudfoot could even dream of, So again, less ammo but more effective fire means they still work in some vaguely realistic sense.

 

It might work for "regular" SM, but Deatwatch fights really strange things, and sometimes you just need a lot of ammo. Even for "ordinary" targets

Some years ago OMSN (our SWAT) squad stormed apartments where terrorist barricaded himself. It was multiapartments house, so they couldn't use good old method of "call the friend with MBT" and thick brick walls give good cover. After a lot of shooting and hand grenades explosions without any results they were forced to make a hole in the wall by two RPG-7 shots, then fire RPO-A (rocket infantry flamethrower with a thermobaric charge) into that hole. Explosion tore apart one of terrorist's arm at the shoulder, but he just used tourniquet and next dose of drug and continued to fight for next 2 hours. Just one ordinary human had "eaten" a quantity of ammunition which could stop motorized infantry platoon with their APCs.

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RecklessPrudence is correct on the Living Errata reference.  This is one of the core reasons I started this Discussion Thread upon this subject. 

The campaign I am preparing to run draws mostly upon the Adventures within the Deathwatch books and DLContent. 

However, from the introductory Adventures of "Extraction", "Final Sanction", and "Oblivion's Edge", to the Rank 4+ "Space Hulk" 3-part Adventure of DW-14: Ark of Lost Souls, to the Veteran Kill Team Adventure of "The Longest Watch" of DW-15: The Emperor's Chosen; the high majority of the Missions/Adventures have the Kill Team far removed from easy (or any) re-supply. 

No ammo depots, no orbital drops, no Thunderhawks, no Teleportarium "beam downs"; so barring the Kill Team specifically piling up their Reserve Requisition for those options, the Mission/Adventures act counter to easy (or any) re-supply.

Edited by pendrake71

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@Lynata...

Most of the book/DLC adventures have whatever transportation that brought the Kill Team to the Mission/Adventure becoming unavailable (thus no re-supply) in one form or another; whether called away, required to remain hidden for whatever reason, too far away for support, or simply destroyed.

Which brings us back around to the previous point of Players' trying to excessively load-up upon the "free" ammunition when they go on-Mission.

And to one of your previous posts, I had considered having the Quartermasters simply saying "no" as well to excessive "free" ammunition, but repeated flat-out "no's" can lead to grumpy Players.  I am trying to find a resolutive solution that they can accept without winding up whining about.

 

As for Jargal, I am not necessarily looking for "logic" as I am looking for "sensible" to limiting the Players on "free" ammunition.

Edited by pendrake71

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you know the funny thing is that wargsmes usually don't make yiu account for all ammo but rpgs usually do. Personaly i want a more fixed ammo situation in a rpg to force role playing.

So, you get attacked by a mob of cultist fanatics with snub pistols and knives. There's 20 of them. Whst do you do?

Ok, since they can't really hurt us we yell 'For the emperor!', rush into them and kill them with armored fists, kicks and knives to save ammo for worthier targets, alright?

Ok, but my assault marine fires up his chainsword and bisects a few.

Yeah, and my techmarine smashes a few with this servo arm for practice. And whacks a couple with his omnissiah axe.

My librarian decides to fry a few with his awesome psyker powers.

Ok so 20 dead cultists a minute later. No ammo expended. One marine suffers a minor wound from a cultist firing into the neck of his armor at point blank range with a .44 magnum basically. The apocathery puts a smiling emperor bandaid on his booboo. The spacewolf assault marine slips and falls on his ass from stepping a pile of slimey intestines he spilled when he cut a cultist in half. The dark angel tac marine laughs at him.

And the Devastator stands there awkwardly while they do this, keeping an eye out for any actual threats that might take advantage? Or does he wade in with his combat knife?

 

He can swing that heavy bolter against some skulls.

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So, yeah, a space marine carries a lot less ammo than we might expect a modern gropo to carry, but, oh, he gets more effect out of each shot than modern mikey mudfoot could even dream of, So again, less ammo but more effective fire means they still work in some vaguely realistic sense.

 

It might work for "regular" SM, but Deatwatch fights really strange things, and sometimes you just need a lot of ammo. Even for "ordinary" targets

Some years ago OMSN (our SWAT) squad stormed apartments where terrorist barricaded himself. It was multiapartments house, so they couldn't use good old method of "call the friend with MBT" and thick brick walls give good cover. After a lot of shooting and hand grenades explosions without any results they were forced to make a hole in the wall by two RPG-7 shots, then fire RPO-A (rocket infantry flamethrower with a thermobaric charge) into that hole. Explosion tore apart one of terrorist's arm at the shoulder, but he just used tourniquet and next dose of drug and continued to fight for next 2 hours. Just one ordinary human had "eaten" a quantity of ammunition which could stop motorized infantry platoon with their APCs.

 

Man, what xxxxing country do you live in?!?!

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Most of the book/DLC adventures have whatever transportation that brought the Kill Team to the Mission/Adventure becoming unavailable (thus no re-supply) in one form or another; whether called away, required to remain hidden for whatever reason, too far away for support, or simply destroyed.

 

Oh, I didn't mean a reliance on the transport itself. But perhaps the Marines could just arrive not only by themselves but also bring along an ammo crate? Granted, this would necessitate establishing a sort of minimum "basecamp", but hiding a locked crate at their exfil zone might work in at least some cases.

 

As for the resolutive solution: Perhaps come up with an "inventory" system of sorts. Going back to Captain Artemis, it seems that grenades and other consumables can be attached to the belt-section, either magnetically or via pouches such as in the DW mini posted by HMBC. As such, how's this?

 

Inventory Slots

  • Belt: 6 slots
  • Upper leg: 2 slots
  • Lower leg: 2 slots
  • Optional vest: adds 46 slots to chest area

Item Requirements

  • Grenade (maglocked): -1 slot
  • Ammo Clip (maglocked or pouch): -1 slot
  • Fire Selector: -1 slot for 2 mini-clips in pouch
  • Pistol (holster), knife (sheathed) or basic weapon (maglocked to upper leg): -2 slots
  • Purity seal or comparable ornamentation: -2 slots (legs and chest only; incompatible with vest if worn on chest)

 

Of course you should never say "no" just like that, but you can certainly establish a line that is not to be crossed and expect any sane player to accept it?

 

Man, what xxxxing country do you live in?!?!

 

On a hunch I'd say Russia?

Edited by Lynata

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As for Jargal, I am not necessarily looking for "logic" as I am looking for "sensible" to limiting the Players on "free" ammunition.

 

I would allow any number of standard ammunition at the start of the mission - so long as player can tell me where and how he carry it.

 

 

Man, what xxxxing country do you live in?!?!

 

On a hunch I'd say Russia?

 

It's all in my profile. Russia, yes.

Edited by Jargal

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Most of the book/DLC adventures have whatever transportation that brought the Kill Team to the Mission/Adventure becoming unavailable (thus no re-supply) in one form or another; whether called away, required to remain hidden for whatever reason, too far away for support, or simply destroyed.

Oh, I didn't mean a reliance on the transport itself. But perhaps the Marines could just arrive not only by themselves but also bring along an ammo crate? Granted, this would necessitate establishing a sort of minimum "basecamp", but hiding a locked crate at their exfil zone might work in at least some cases.

As for the resolutive solution: Perhaps come up with an "inventory" system of sorts. Going back to Captain Artemis, it seems that grenades and other consumables can be attached to the belt-section, either magnetically or via pouches such as in the DW mini posted by HMBC. As such, how's this?

Inventory Slots

  • Belt: 6 slots
  • Upper leg: 2 slots
  • Lower leg: 2 slots
  • Optional vest: adds 4 slots to chest area
Item Requirements

  • Grenade (maglocked): -1 slot
  • Ammo Clip (maglocked or pouch): -1 slot
  • Fire Selector: -1 slot for 2 mini-clips in pouch
  • Pistol (holster), knife (sheathed) or basic weapon (maglocked to upper leg): -2 slots
  • Purity seal or comparable ornamentation: -2 slots (legs and chest only; incompatible with vest if worn on chest)
Of course you should never say "no" just like that, but you can certainly establish a line that is not to be crossed and expect any sane player to accept it?

I think the vest should have like 6 slots. Otherwise your plan looks pretty good. I'd add that one basic weapon could be slung across the bsckpack like a sword or bolt gun. I wonder if each mammoth shoulder plate could have like one thing stuck to it. I could see each one having a special slot in the front that could hold like 2 fire selector mini clips. Or maybe the special deathwatch shoulder pad has a special compartment for some dw miniclips.....? Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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