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Luckmann

Ronan of the Wild & Pico - I could use a second eye at a possible personal revision.

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I have long lamented and often mentioned my personal feelings regarding the sheer idiocy that Ronan of the Wild's Familiar, Pico, cannot loot for Ronan of the Wild himself. Essentially, he's got this trusted familiar who is just unable to actually help him, for reasons.
 
Looking at it, I just can't fathom why, though, but I've got the nagging suspicion that it has something to do with the wording(s), and wanting to prevent Ronan from placing Pico, having Pico loot for Ronan, and then place him somewhere else, and have Pico loot for someone again, etc. Essentially giving out many more free lootings than intended. That's all well and good, but it still irritates me, and since I purchased Bonds of the Wild today, it also infuriates me, that Pico just can't loot for Ronan. He can loot for anyone else on the team. But not for Ronan, his master.
 
Furthermore, not only is this silly, but it could also create a situation where the hero himself cannot recall his familiar, since the search token needs to be searched for Pico to be returned to the hero sheet, but Pico needs to be on the hero sheet for Ronan to use his Heroic Feat. Now, I don't think this would ever be a genuine problem, because I cannot fathom why someone would play with people that'd go "Nah, I'm not going to search that token after all." but I think it's a bit of a systemic oversight that such a situation can arise.

I was trying to work out how to word things so that it would still be usable by Ronan, but without the aforementioned potential for abuse. But I'd want some input so I'm not missing some cascade effect or game-breaking outcome, or something running counter to the spirit of the game.

Currently, Pico's relevant text reads:
 
 

During another hero's turn, if that hero is adjacent to Pico, he may search a search token in the space containing Pico (this does not require an action).
 
If Pico is in a space that does not contain a search token, place Pico on your Hero sheet.

 
I was thinking of suggesting the revision of:
 
 

During another hero's turn, if any hero is adjacent to Pico, the hero adjacent to Pico may search a search token in the space containing Pico (this does not require an action).
 
If Pico is in a space that does not contain a search token, place Pico on your Hero sheet.

 
Essentially, this would allow Pico to search the search token for anyone, including Ronan or the currently active hero, although it could happen at any hero's turn that is not Ronan's turn.
 
Opinions on this?
 
Edit: Actually, this could be revised further to:
 

During another hero's turn, any hero adjacent to Pico may search a search token in the space containing Pico (this does not require an action).

If Pico is in a space that does not contain a search token, return Pico on your Hero sheet.

Edited by Luckmann

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You can word it as:

 

During another hero's turn, Pico may search a search token in its space (this does not require an action) for any hero adjacent to Pico.

 

What the above does, is give Ronan (Pico's master) the decision to search and the (verbal) order for Pico to search, instead of giving another hero the decision and order.

It both addresses 1 of your complaints (1 of your friends is being dumb), and is also more thematic (why would Pico listen to, or understand someone else).

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I'm not keen on the revision. It essentially gives any hero the opportunity to interrupt another hero's turn. The revision by Mlai has a different problem- if Pico is doing the search, what happens if the Overlord plays a trap card? Which hero does it get played on?

 

If you're worried about repetition (Pico granting more searches than intended) it should probably be done with a simple frequency limit:

 

 

 

While in a space adjacent to Pico during his turn, a hero may search a search token in the space containing Pico (this does not require an action, limit once per round). 
 
If Pico is in a space that does not contain a search token, place Pico on your Hero sheet.
 
 

 
With the above house rule, Pico can work for any hero, but can still only work once per round total (not once per hero). 
 
House rule aside, I like the way Pico currently works. No, he does not search for Ronan- but if Ronan (or the other heroes) are moving around, they can exchange search cards easily enough. Furthermore, if Ronan is the Treasure Hunter, he can exhaust Sleight of Hand to get search cards from other heroes immediately (to benefit from Pico).
Edited by Zaltyre

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I'm not keen on the revision. It essentially gives any hero the opportunity to interrupt another hero's turn. The revision by Mlai has a different problem- if Pico is doing the search, what happens if the Overlord plays a trap card? Which hero does it get played on?

 

If you're worried about repetition (Pico granting more searches than intended) it should probably be done with a simple frequency limit:

 

 

 

While in a space adjacent to Pico during his turn, a hero may search a search token in the space containing Pico (this does not require an action, limit once per round). 

 

If Pico is in a space that does not contain a search token, place Pico on your Hero sheet.

 

With the above house rule, Pico can work for any hero, but can still only work once per round total (not once per hero).

 

I really don't see the issue of another player interrupting another player's turn just to loot something they are adjacent to, but I guess that it could be a minor annoyance if said player suddenly realizes it and does it in the middle of ongoing actions. This could be rectified with a "At the start of another hero's turn..". That way, it wouldn't actually interrupt or get in the way, it would merely happen at the start of a turn/"between" turns.

Limiting it to once per round has the issue that it'd mandate the order in which hero turns would have to be taken in order to not "waste" Pico. Such as, say, Ronan took his turn last of the heroes in the preceding round, placing Pico, and during the next round, the first hero to move "spends" Pico, making him impossible to use again that round.

While not a major issue, I would consider it an issue in that it's easy to overlook and result in "Oh god I didn't think of that, aaaarrrgh!"-ness.

 

House rule aside, I like the way Pico currently works. No, he does not search for Ronan- but if Ronan (or the other heroes) are moving around, they can exchange search cards easily enough. Furthermore, if Ronan is the Treasure Hunter, he can exhaust Sleight of Hand to get search cards from other heroes immediately (to benefit from Pico).

It's interesting, because him not working well as a Treasure Hunter is one of the reasons I hate the fact that Pico can't loot for him. If Ronan is the Treasure Hunter, thus able to make use of Sleight of Hand, you'll likely want Ronan to be the one searching 90% of the time, due to Delver, the Treasure Hunter starting card.

 

 

Pico is well balanced the way it is written now. It may not be 100% thematic, but so what? If it was truly thematic, then perhaps only Ronan is allowed to use the ability, rather than any other hero. That makes it worse though.

 

It's not just for thematicism, though, while yes, this is prompted mainly about my own personal annoyance of a character not being able to make use of his own familiar, it also means that if you play Ronan as a Stalker or Treasure Hunter, your hero ability doesn't synergize with things like Delver or Makeshift Trap. While Ronan's Hero Ability by no means is strictly useless "as is", the fact that it synergizing best with Scout classes that'd fit him as a Scout, but only benefits if they're played by some other Scout, would be a constant annoyance.

And I don't see why it'd be more "truly thematic" if only Ronan could make use of the ability. In my mind, Pico goes to anyone at the team, either because they're part of the pack, or because Ronan orders/tells/asks him to. In my head, Pico topples the thing, climbing clumsily over an urn or a chest, and then awkwardly grabs, paws and drags the thing over to the ally like the adorable little survival-impaired red panda he is.

Edited by Luckmann

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Pico is already limited to "once per Ronan turn" by his timing. He might loot twice in a round, but then he didn't loot the previous round.

 

I think it is important to remember the there are no solo hero partes. If Pico gives a free search to another hero, he is still helping Ronan. He might not be synergizing with Delver, but does the treasure hunter really need synergy to be awesome? Also, crazy solution: have a two-scout party, and make the treasure hunter not Ronan. Boom- Pico/TH synergy.

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Pico is already limited to "once per Ronan turn" by his timing. He might loot twice in a round, but then he didn't loot the previous round.

Yes, but that's a pretty big difference. Look at it like this; with a limitation of once per round, it'd be possible to deploy Pico but not use him during the same round. I think that has the potential to be disjointed and unintuitive.

 

I think it is important to remember the there are no solo hero partes. If Pico gives a free search to another hero, he is still helping Ronan.

Absolutely, it benefits Ronan in the end, but it's still nonsense that Pico can't benefit or interact with his master directly.

 

He might not be synergizing with Delver, but does the treasure hunter really need synergy to be awesome?

No, but entirely beside the point. The Treasure Hunter is amazing all by itself, but it doesn't have anything to do with the issue.

 

Also, crazy solution: have a two-scout party, and make the treasure hunter not Ronan. Boom- Pico/TH synergy.

Not a solution, since it wasn't the issue.

 

 

Also, crazy solution: have a two-scout party, and make the treasure hunter not Ronan. Boom- Pico/TH synergy.

Or you can make Ronan a monk, and still have another TH and a party with all archetypes.

 

While entirely beside the point of the thread, it was something I considered, despite my disdain for the Monk as a class, but I couldn't come up with anything cool to do with Ronan as a Healer - not only would the Monk feel odd in itself, but the Healer archetypes would arguably be odder.

Edited by Luckmann

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I don't necessarily think that Ronan is broken or underpowered.  I simply agree that it's kind of stupid that a hero cannot directly benefit from his own familiar.

 

Is it problematic that my wording allows Ronan to interrupt another hero's turn?  Yes, but so?  The OL interrupts heroes' turns all the time, and certain heroes get to interrupt the OL.  This game's turns are designed to be interrupted.  If a hero throws a fit because he's interrupted to receive a free gift, then this heroic party is sorely lacking in communication skills.

 

if Pico is doing the search, what happens if the Overlord plays a trap card? Which hero does it get played on?

The hero adjacent to the search token, ofc.

Is he gonna throw a fit and point fingers, because Ronan's interruption caused him to suffer a trap?  Like I said, adventuring is a team sport.  I actually like the fact that Ronan's ability worded this way could challenge the cohesion of an unreliable party which doesn't talk to each other.

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I don't necessarily think that Ronan is broken or underpowered.  I simply agree that it's kind of stupid that a hero cannot directly benefit from his own familiar.

 

Is it problematic that my wording allows Ronan to interrupt another hero's turn?  Yes, but so?  The OL interrupts heroes' turns all the time, and certain heroes get to interrupt the OL.  This game's turns are designed to be interrupted.  If a hero throws a fit because he's interrupted to receive a free gift, then this heroic party is sorely lacking in communication skills.

 

if Pico is doing the search, what happens if the Overlord plays a trap card? Which hero does it get played on?

The hero adjacent to the search token, ofc.

Is he gonna throw a fit and point fingers, because Ronan's interruption caused him to suffer a trap?  Like I said, adventuring is a team sport.  I actually like the fact that Ronan's ability worded this way could challenge the cohesion of an unreliable party which doesn't talk to each other.

 

The problem with your wording isn't that it happens on another player's turn (which I would consider no problem at all) but rather, like Zaltyre said, that it's not clear who gets affected. If Pico does the search, it's far from clear that the one affected by a Trap Card would be the one Pico is giving the search card to. It could just as well be Ronan, since Ronan is the one that controls Pico and thus, presumably, would carry out the Search (even if immediately handed to another player), or, another assumption could be that since Pico is a familiar, and not a familiar that is treated as a figure (and thus does not count as a hero nor a figure), the trap card in question becomes inapplicable.

Not that I dislike the idea of Ronan's player being the one deciding who to search for or when. In fact, I find the idea hilarious.

"I'm going to search foooooor.... you. Oops, it's a trap. Pico just triggered a pressure plate after knocking over a funeral urn and you're plummeting to your death."

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The problem with your wording isn't that it happens on another player's turn (which I would consider no problem at all) but rather, like Zaltyre said, that it's not clear who gets affected.

Hmm, true.  I hate inelegant wording just as much as the next geek.  So I'd say your edited rule is better.  Even if I have to give up the hilarious mental image of a hero falling into a pit after a red panda does something clumsy and cute.

 

And yes, I too watched half a dozen red panda videos from following Zaltyre's link.

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If a familiar like stone, wolf or skeleton adjacents a search token with Pico, can Pico be activated ? 

 

Nope. "Familiars treated as figures" are only treated as heroes in defined ways, which does not include searching.

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