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warlock55

The servo arm breaks the game.

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I cant understand how im finding no topics on this. This item has broken our game. Our starting heretic is instant gibbing everything and doing more damage than our dual wielding khorne zerker. How is this even considered balanced? 2d10+14 with 10 pen? Who thought that was balanced? And you are giving to a support archtype right of the start? My players are close to revolt (except the heretek player, hes fine with it). Does anyone have any suggested house rules for this blunder in balance? As it is everyone is saving xp to get the servo arm themselves, even our sorc. 

 

Second how is there no rulling on how many cybernetic parts can be gotten? Our heretek is already planning to stack the mechanicus upgrade 20 times for armor 30 which makes terminators cry. We love the game but we have no idea how this got by play testing. Help if you can.

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I am far from any attempt to speak in the defense of the balancing of Black Crusade... but I guess there is just a misunderstanding.

You mentioned that this Extremely Rare item would be granted to the Heretek "right from the start". The character creation mentions that a Heretek gains any two good craftsmanship cybernetics.

..well...

 

While the list on p.192 is not making any differences, the introduction on p. 189 speaks about bionic replacements first and about implant systems later.

I can only guess, but my guess is that any two good craftsmanship cybernetics refers to such replacements, not to the implant systems. If I am getting it right, this would explain the troubles you have. In that case, you would need to ret-con (or:start again).



 

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Also You cant have more as much machine trait as your Tougness bonus. But again haywire granade.... Seriously dude start reading the armory and arm your goons properly.... ;)

Edited by Athanatosz

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Also You cant have more as much machine trait as your Tougness bonus. But again haywire granade.... Seriously dude start reading the armory and arm your goons properly.... ;)

You might be thinking of something else? Certain BC mechadendrites from Tome of Decay have this restriction, as do all mechadendrites from DH2E. But in this case, neither the Machine trait nor Mechanicus Assimilation have such a limitation. There's even a question in the FAQ about this, with an answer that basically reads, "Be reasonable, alright?" In my past BC campaign, the heretek really did manage to acquire Mechanicus Assimilation 20. But in fairness, everyone else was fine with it OoC. In your campaign...perhaps not so much.

 

 

Question: Is there an upper limit to the number of times the Mechanicus Assimilation replacement upgrade can be taken?

Answer: No, but the GM is encouraged to step in should a Heretic take this to the exclusion of other cybernetics or in situations it is not called for.

 

On the topic of the servo-arm, I will agree that it's a strong starting choice. This and other exclusive/cheaper cybernetics are why I do not regard hereteks as a support archetype, but rather as Marines-lite. But there do exist significant limitations on it as things go forward. For one, it can only make a single hit per round (reaction or Standard Attack). As written, you can't even charge or All-Out Attack with it. And barring Best Craftsmanship or Crushing Blow, you can never upgrade its damage. My advice in the short term is to talk with the players and to vary your combat encounters. (Hordes are your friends in this case.) Perhaps the heretek will have to switch some selections, or perhaps instead the Marines can switch theirs. (There are two good power swords in Tome of Fate, for instance, that can be selected at chargen without issue.) In the long term, things will stabilize relatively quickly. At some point your Marines should be able to trade up for the crazy stuff like Autocannons or Power Fists, while your sorcerer needs absolutely zero help considering that they've got a force weapon.

Edited by NFK

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Thanks for the replies all. And Im sorry about the salty OP. Its just I a having actual fun with this game as I love the IP and MOST of the rules. I hate it when game authors use the "reasonable" rule. Players can be anything but reasonable. But I digress. Forgive me if im reading this wrong. But in my book all it says for starting cybernetics is two good quality ones. This does not denote rarity but quality. He can take any cybernetic regardless of rarity. Now perhaps there is a errata I have missed or perhaps I have read this wrong.

 

Going forward I think that these are the house rules I will put in place. Perhaps you can tell me if this is reasonable.

 

Servo arm needs to be attached to power armor ( I find it silly that a machine the size and fucntion of a car assembly robot can be strapped to a humans back.) which keeps it out of stating hereteks grasp.

We have lowered the damage to 2d10+7 (Str of the arm) with 10 pen (we are going to see if that needs lowering as well).

For cybernatics limit we are using toughness x2 for max additions and the mechanicus upgrade can be taken up to the charecters toughness bonus.

 

I am not trying to destroy the class but I and the rest of the group baring our heretek feels the class is a mess and needs rulings other than "eyeball" it.

 

Once more thanks for reading and the replies.

Edited by warlock55

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"You might be thinking of something else?"

 

That is our interpretation of the machine trait rule.... Mechanicus Assimilation 20 and other gamey quirks is one of the exit signs in our games....

Edited by Athanatosz

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If it's not fine with your group then that's perfectly alright.  :) But things like this demonstrate just how much difference gear can make in a gear porn game.

 

@ warlock55: Those seem reasonable for the situation. I don't think you need to care too much about reducing the servo-arm's Pen, since armor is designed to be the easiest form of damage reduction to break. Penetration isn't about damage on its own, but about the ability to ensure damage even through ablation, so beyond a certain point it's just about consistency. I would recommend that at some point you allow the damage to be increased back to the printed value, but that should be likely when the other folks have the capacity to do similar things with their weapons or powers and not before then. A bolter stands out against las carbines, but not against plasma guns.

Edited by NFK

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If it's not fine with your group then that's perfectly alright.  :) But things like this demonstrate just how much difference gear can make in a gear porn game.

 

@ warlock55: Those seem reasonable for the situation. I don't think you need to care too much about reducing the servo-arm's Pen, since armor is designed to be the easiest form of damage reduction to break. Penetration isn't about damage on its own, but about the ability to ensure damage even through ablation, so beyond a certain point it's just about consistency. I would recommend that at some point you allow the damage to be increased back to the printed value, but that should be likely when the other folks have the capacity to do similar things with their weapons or powers and not before then. A bolter stands out against las carbines, but not against plasma guns.

 

I will keep the mechanics of the servo arm open to change as the game progress's but we all just felt it was to powerful for a starting heretek. The damage is open to scaling if it needs to catch up to other players. My problem with the pen 10 is that very few melee weapons have this rating and most power weapons do not. I dont like the idea of a piece of metal out damaging power technology. But its all about the balance and I dont want our heretek to be left behind. Thanks for all the suggestions :D.

Edited by warlock55

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A big difference as stated is that it will never scale with the player. Crushing blow in theory could but that would be a gm rule. I'd personally say no since its a mechanical implant, not the characters innate ability to swing a sword in style.

Starting out, that is an insane amount of damage but in all fairness, the Heretek would be very weak compared to a marine or even more so, a Warpsmith. Other players will eventually get items like chain fists which are probably the most powerful weapon IMO or the beloved Hellblade.  Melta guns, Hellhammer lasgun etc. Let alone Daemon weapons or the accursed Legacy weapon.

 

On that same note, he is a support character, meaning theyre not running into melee... at least they really shouldnt be. But still even if he is, he is only going to hit at most 2x. one for the normal attack and then a reaction for the claw. Killing 1 opponent is not a big deal. I have a player ( and this is pretty common) who is a CSM, who pushs the spell warp time and then sustains it all day. Meaning if he hits 1 opponent with lightening attack; they get struck 8 times. and 1d10+20 pen 6 force is next to impossible to survive.

 

For this I've adopted minion rules like in Only war. They have 1 Wound and standard armour and toughness for their type. Meaning you can have a ton of them and not get bogged down like you do with hordes. just a thought.

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I found this line in the description of the Servo-Arm: 

"Each is integrated into the user’s armour to offset the heavy weight and power requirements."
It's badly worded, but I think that implies the need for a power armour of some sort. I mean, this is obviously nothing like the Manipulator Mechandrite that goes in the back but the kind of thing that Techmarines put on their armour. So, I would say "Power Armour or no deal". 

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