Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
jceddy

Overlapping vs. Touching

Recommended Posts

So the rule for overlapping at the end of movement is to move a ship back until the bases are not overlapping any more. The ships are then "touching".

The rules then say that actions can't be performed by a ship that is overlapping another ship. This seems strange since by the time you are going to execute actions, your ships will never be overlapping.

I'm trying to determine whether this was a misuse of the word overlapping in the rule book (should have said "touching"?), or if I'm rather misunderstanding something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the rule for overlapping at the end of movement is to move a ship back until the bases are not overlapping any more. The ships are then "touching".

The rules then say that actions can't be performed by a ship that is overlapping another ship. This seems strange since by the time you are going to execute actions, your ships will never be overlapping.

I think you're talking about this passage on page 3: "A ship must skip its “Perform Action” step if it overlapped another ship while executing a maneuver."

Except that doesn't say "if it is overlapping", it says "if it overlapped". So there's no problem.

I'm trying to determine whether this was a misuse of the word overlapping in the rule book (should have said "touching"?), or if I'm rather misunderstanding something.

The reason it doesn't say "touching" is because the "touching" state can persist through multiple turns if certain things happen, and it by itself doesn't prevent you from taking actions. Say you're running Yorr and another lambda, and the non-Yorr lambda bumps somebody. Next round, the non-Yorr lambda dials in a stop maneuver, but has its stress intercepted by Yorr. The non-Yorr lambda might still be touching the ship it overlapped last turn, depending on what they did this round, but doesn't have to skip the Perform Action step.

Edit: I don't know why I was messing with Captain Yorr. This whole thing is much easier to arrange with Electronic Baffle.

Edited by digitalbusker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As previously answered if you encounter an overlap situation the ship skips it's Perform Action step.  Generally this means no Actions but the ship could still perform Free Actions if granted them by some ability.

 

I believe "touching" is a bit more difficult to handle.  The only way to set up a touching situation is as the result of an overlap.  Once set up it can be maintained IF neither ship involved physically moves at all most likely from another overlap or because it performs the Stop maneuver.  Now most of the things that would maintain a touching state (which prevents attacks between the two touching ships) are going to do something that hinders actions (give Stress or overlap) but if you can stay Stopped without overlapping and without gaining Stress you should still get your Perform Action step during the activation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Touching" can literally happen without overlap and can stay that way for several rounds. Thats why it keeps it separate.

 

A ship that ends its turn "touching" a ship simply cant shoot that ship. If the base didnt scoot the other to be placed down, but theyre clearly touching, they didnt overlap so they get their action step. Ive had it happen a few times but its very rare without a bump from the previous round into the same exact maneuver, which is specifically mentioned in the faq.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The situation the FAQ mentions is because the two ships should NOT overlap a second time if they perform the same straight maneuver but allows that some variation could cause it to happen.  The only way it happens is when a ship runs straight (parallel) into the back of another one and then both ships perform the same straight maneuver.  If there is some kind of angle between the two ships or a straight maneuver is not performed then there is a chance for further overlap.  If for some reason the back ship moves first there is also no guarentee it will get "over" the ship in front which could bump it back to its starting position before the ship in front then moves away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Touching" can literally happen without overlap and can stay that way for several rounds. Thats why it keeps it separate.

 

A ship that ends its turn "touching" a ship simply cant shoot that ship. If the base didnt scoot the other to be placed down, but theyre clearly touching, they didnt overlap so they get their action step.

No, you are wrong.

Two ships touching is a game state that ONLY happens as a direct result of one ship being unable to complete it's maneuver because of an overlap.

When a ship performs a maneuver and ends really, really close to another ship, you need to decide if they overlapped or not. If it overlapped, the ship skips its perform action step and the 2 ships are considered touching. If you decide they didn't overlap, the ship gets its action step and the ships are not considered touching.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In an extreme corner case touching could remain even without continuing overlap BUT it would have still required an overlap situation to get everything started.  If two ships with stop maneuvers ran into each other they could stay touching without causing any new overlaps for as long as they could maintain their ability to use the Stop maneuver.  A couple Shuttles could stay touching without new overlaps for some time IF they have some way to take Stop maneuvers round after round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In an extreme corner case touching could remain even without continuing overlap BUT it would have still required an overlap situation to get everything started.  If two ships with stop maneuvers ran into each other they could stay touching without causing any new overlaps for as long as they could maintain their ability to use the Stop maneuver.  A couple Shuttles could stay touching without new overlaps for some time IF they have some way to take Stop maneuvers round after round.

 

They could also just do 1 forwards to remain touching indefinitely, if facing each other :).

 

Otherwise I second what Klutz said. "Touching" in the game doesn't just mean that the bases are physically touching, it means that the ships overlapped and are thus considered touching. You can't be touching another ship unless you overlapped it first, or it overlapped you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In an extreme corner case touching could remain even without continuing overlap BUT it would have still required an overlap situation to get everything started.  If two ships with stop maneuvers ran into each other they could stay touching without causing any new overlaps for as long as they could maintain their ability to use the Stop maneuver.  A couple Shuttles could stay touching without new overlaps for some time IF they have some way to take Stop maneuvers round after round.

 

They could also just do 1 forwards to remain touching indefinitely, if facing each other :).

 

Otherwise I second what Klutz said. "Touching" in the game doesn't just mean that the bases are physically touching, it means that the ships overlapped and are thus considered touching. You can't be touching another ship unless you overlapped it first, or it overlapped you. 

 

 

There are lots of way to stay "touching" every round.  There are very few ways to stay touching every round that do NOT also involve overlaps every round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that we've all agreed on the original question here, shall we proceed to see who can figure out the weirdest, unlikeliest, most contrived edge case scenario to keep 2 ships touching without overlaping repeatedly?

Cause that's where this seems to be headed! :P

Edited by Klutz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, I've got it.

I *am* a bit concerned over the ambiguous wording of this rule in the Learn to Play guide. The only place this is mentioned is in the Action rules on page 10 and it says "A ship that overlaps another ship cannot perform its action"...by the time you are in the action phase a ship can't overlap another ship, which is potentially confusing to new players. It might be worth putting this information in the Movement rules section and/or changing the wording to disambiguate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, I've got it.

I *am* a bit concerned over the ambiguous wording of this rule in the Learn to Play guide. The only place this is mentioned is in the Action rules on page 10 and it says "A ship that overlaps another ship cannot perform its action"...by the time you are in the action phase a ship can't overlap another ship, which is potentially confusing to new players. It might be worth putting this information in the Movement rules section and/or changing the wording to disambiguate.

 

Considering Perform Action Step follows Perform Maneuver during the Activation phase it should not be a problem.  Guess I haven't looked at teh book any time recently however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

"Touching" can literally happen without overlap and can stay that way for several rounds. Thats why it keeps it separate.

 

A ship that ends its turn "touching" a ship simply cant shoot that ship. If the base didnt scoot the other to be placed down, but theyre clearly touching, they didnt overlap so they get their action step.

No, you are wrong.

Two ships touching is a game state that ONLY happens as a direct result of one ship being unable to complete it's maneuver because of an overlap.

When a ship performs a maneuver and ends really, really close to another ship, you need to decide if they overlapped or not. If it overlapped, the ship skips its perform action step and the 2 ships are considered touching. If you decide they didn't overlap, the ship gets its action step and the ships are not considered touching.

 

Thats plain wrong, here is the FAQ entry.

 

Touching and Stationary Maneuvers

If a ship begins its activation touching another ship and executes a

[ 0] maneuver (or executes a maneuver that does not move the ship away),

the ships are considered touching. Ships that are touching remain touching until

either ship moves away (so that the bases are no longer physically adjacent).

 

 

Overlapping In-line Ships

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and
facing the same direction. After both ships execute a maneuver of the same
speed or perform the same boost or barrel roll action, they are not touching
even if their bases are still in physical contact (unless they overlapped).

 

 

The problem is that they have not cleared up the question in cases when you still fit like in the second faq quote, but are doing a same speed maneuver, boost or barrel roll. You would assume that in those cases touching counts touching, but not as overlap. 

 

At the other hand, this is not how it is handled by TOs in my area, they seem instead to count this kind of physical contact as overlap and following a touching. Or in other words. I am looking for a source for: "Overlapping and touching should be treated as the same word.  One does not exist without the other."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats plain wrong, here is the FAQ entry.

 

Touching and Stationary Maneuvers

If a ship begins its activation touching another ship and executes a

[0] maneuver (or executes a maneuver that does not move the ship away),

the ships are considered touching. Ships that are touching remain touching until

either ship moves away (so that the bases are no longer physically adjacent).

That is a special case. It only applies when the ship that tried to move is already in a "touching" state -- see the text I highlighted.

The person you replied to was talking about the general case, and is correct.

The only time a ship starts touching another is when there is an overlapping maneuver and a backslide. (Rules Ref.) Any given maneuver either causes overlap or doesn't cause overlap. A maneuver that moves a ship into perfect physical contact but not one smidge more causes neither overlap nor touching. (The "inline ships" clarification in the FAQ stems from this.)

Other types of movement (boost/barrel roll/decloak/etc.) are not allowed to cause overlap in the first place, so they cannot create "touching" conditions -- not even if used to move a ship into actual physical contact.

Once two ships are touching, they remain touching until one of them successfully moves away (by any means) and breaks physical contact. (FAQ)

Edited by Quarrel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

"Touching" can literally happen without overlap and can stay that way for several rounds. Thats why it keeps it separate.

 

A ship that ends its turn "touching" a ship simply cant shoot that ship. If the base didnt scoot the other to be placed down, but theyre clearly touching, they didnt overlap so they get their action step.

No, you are wrong.

Two ships touching is a game state that ONLY happens as a direct result of one ship being unable to complete it's maneuver because of an overlap.

When a ship performs a maneuver and ends really, really close to another ship, you need to decide if they overlapped or not. If it overlapped, the ship skips its perform action step and the 2 ships are considered touching. If you decide they didn't overlap, the ship gets its action step and the ships are not considered touching.

 

Thats plain wrong, here is the FAQ entry.

 

The problem is that they have not cleared up the question in cases when you still fit like in the second faq quote, but are doing a same speed maneuver, boost or barrel roll. You would assume that in those cases touching counts touching, but not as overlap. 

 

At the other hand, this is not how it is handled by TOs in my area, they seem instead to count this kind of physical contact as overlap and following a touching. Or in other words. I am looking for a source for: "Overlapping and touching should be treated as the same word.  One does not exist without the other."

 

 

You won't find that source. Touching can only come into play as a result of an overlap and can continue from one round to the next, but an overlap does not result from touching and will not persist from one round to the next.

 

If a ship attempts to move away from another ship, but its manoeuvre is insufficient to clear that ship, then a new overlap results. If that manoeuvre has also failed to allow the ship to move away from a ship it was previously touching, then that touching state still exists. A ship can quite conceivably end up touching more than one ship.

 

Overlap and Touching are two different game states and should not be treated as the same word as they have two very different meanings.

Edited by Parravon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You won't find that source. Touching can only come into play as a result of an overlap and can continue from one round to the next, but an overlap does not result from touching and will not persist from one round to the next.

 

If a ship attempts to move away from another ship, but its manoeuvre is insufficient to clear that ship, then a new overlap results. If that manoeuvre has also failed to allow the ship to move away from a ship it was previously touching, then that touching state still exists. A ship can quite conceivably end up touching more than one ship.

 

Overlap and Touching are two different game states and should not be treated as the same word as they have two very different meanings.

No source, no good. "Touching can only come into pay as a result from an overlap" is imho clearly a desirable result, but without a citation that statement is of little value. The interpretation is supported by the fact that physical contact in one special case is explicitly not touching, but without a clear statement in the FAQ or rules I will have a hard time to convince my TO that physical contact is not automatically an overlap outside of that one special case from the FAQ. 

 

I guess I have to write a rules question.

 

Besides, Overlap, Touching and physical contact seem to be all not the same thing. Two of them seem game states used as keywords, while the third one just happens to happen sometimes when ships get really, really close to something on the board without overlapping. Seems not to be special gamestate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No source, no good. "Touching can only come into pay as a result from an overlap" is imho clearly a desirable result, but without a citation that statement is of little value.

It is literally the definition of the touching game state. Citation from Rules Reference, page 19 :

TOUCHING Two ships are touching if one ship overlapped the other ship while executing a maneuver and their bases are touching as a result.

 

The interpretation is supported by the fact that physical contact in one special case is explicitly not touching, but without a clear statement in the FAQ or rules I will have a hard time to convince my TO that physical contact is not automatically an overlap outside of that one special case from the FAQ. 

 

The "Overlapping In-line Ships" FAQ entry quite explicitly addresses a very specific scenario. Unless you are in that very specific scenario, those rules have absolutely no value.

 

If you TO has trouble understanding that physical adjacency is not the same as touching, then you need to find a different TO or split the TO responsibilities between 2 players, an organizer and a judge.

 

 

Besides, Overlap, Touching and physical contact seem to be all not the same thing. Two of them seem game states used as keywords, while the third one just happens to happen sometimes when ships get really, really close to something on the board without overlapping. Seems not to be special gamestate.

And now I'm confused... because that last paragraph seems ok. You are correct that:

  • Overlap is a keyword and is something that happens in game.
  • Touching is a keyword and is always the result of a previous overlap.
  • Physical contact is not a keyword, nor is it a game state.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An overlap ONLY happens when you cannot place your ship's base flat on the table because it will be on TOP of an obstacle or another ship's base.

If you can place it flat, then no overlap has occurred, and even if the ship is in physical contact with the obstacle or other ship, they are NOT considered to be "touching".

Edited by Parravon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only way for "Touching" to start is to have an Overlap.

 

The only way for "Touching" to continue is to have neither ship move. (The FAQ under touching and stationary ships.)

 

If a ship moves at all without a new overlap it shouldn't be touching any other ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only way for "Touching" to start is to have an Overlap.

 

The only way for "Touching" to continue is to have neither ship move. (The FAQ under touching and stationary ships.)

 

If a ship moves at all without a new overlap it shouldn't be touching any other ships.

Only if it manages to break physical contact, as per the rules for Touching, page 19 of the rulebook. It is still possible to move a ship, but not break physical contact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only way for "Touching" to start is to have an Overlap.

 

The only way for "Touching" to continue is to have neither ship move. (The FAQ under touching and stationary ships.)

 

If a ship moves at all without a new overlap it shouldn't be touching any other ships.

 

See, the issue for me to convince TOs is that the word touching means literally physical contact. But the keyword touching makes not all physical contact touching. Rules reference p19 stats a way how to achieve and how to resolve that state, including a specific case when physical contact is not touching. 

BUT it does not state that an overlap is the only source of touching, and it does not define how other cases of physical contact are to interpreted. If any other physical contact is considered automatically an overlap then they become automatically touching as defined on page 19 of the rules reference and we are given one specific example when this would be not the case. 

I absolutely believe that RAI you are right. I just fear RAW it's not 100% clearly defined which gives me a hard case to make my argument, especially as the local community seems to run with physical contact = overlap since ages. 

 

I did send them a rules question, let's see what the devs say. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The only way for "Touching" to start is to have an Overlap.

 

The only way for "Touching" to continue is to have neither ship move. (The FAQ under touching and stationary ships.)

 

If a ship moves at all without a new overlap it shouldn't be touching any other ships.

Only if it manages to break physical contact, as per the rules for Touching, page 19 of the rulebook. It is still possible to move a ship, but not break physical contact.

 

 

Jup, doing a  speed 3 straight, while the other (large base) ship does a speed 2 straight might not break the physical contact and actually not break the touching state either as FAQ 421 Page 5. 

 

 

Overlapping In-line Ships

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. After both ships execute a maneuver of the same speed or perform the same boost or barrel roll action, they are not touching even if their bases are still in physical contact (unless they overlapped).

 

 

Edited by SEApocalypse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like either you're trolling, or you're being voluntarily obtuse.

 

See, the issue for me to convince TOs is that the word touching means literally physical contact. But the keyword touching makes not all physical contact touching. Rules reference p19 stats a way how to achieve and how to resolve that state, including a specific case when physical contact is not touching. 

BUT it does not state that an overlap is the only source of touching, and it does not define how other cases of physical contact are to interpreted. If any other physical contact is considered automatically an overlap then they become automatically touching as defined on page 19 of the rules reference and we are given one specific example when this would be not the case. 

I absolutely believe that RAI you are right. I just fear RAW it's not 100% clearly defined which gives me a hard case to make my argument, especially as the local community seems to run with physical contact = overlap since ages. 

 

I did send them a rules question, let's see what the devs say. 

 

 

The Rules Reference clearly defines what "Touching" means and clearly defines what "Overlapping Ships" means. The RAW are very clear.

 

"it does not state that an overlap is the only source of touching" ... That's a very poor argument. The rules don't state any other source of touching.

 

 

 

Jup, doing a  speed 3 straight, while the other (large base) ship does a speed 2 straight might not break the physical contact and actually not break the touching state either as FAQ 421 Page 5. 

 

 

Overlapping In-line Ships
Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. After both ships execute a maneuver of the same speed or perform the same boost or barrel roll action, they are not touching even if their bases are still in physical contact (unless they overlapped).

 

 

Wrong again, and in more than one way...

 

For one, the "Overlapping In-Line Ships" rule doesn't apply to the situation you mentioned. The rule you quoted explicitly states "a maneuver of the same speed". Your example mentions a 2 straight and 3 straight. I'm starting to think you're not even bothering to read the rules.

 

And even if it did apply, the rule is in place so the touching state is not maintained. Here's a scenario where the rule actually applies, and how it plays out...

  • X-Wing A bumped into the back of X-Wing B.
  • The 2 X-Wing are touching, parallel and facing the same direction at the end of the round.
  • The following round, X-Wing A executes a 2-straight maneuver, without overlapping anything.
    • X-Wing A has therefore moved away.
    • The touching state is broken.
  • Then, X-Wing B also executes a 2-straight maneuver
  • ​X-Wing B ends this maneuver in physical contact with X-Wing A, but did not overlap it.
    • Can we apply the "Overlapping In-line Ships" rule?
      • Did the 2 ships end a round touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction? Yes.
      • Did the 2 ships execute a maneuver of the same speed? Yes.
      • Yes, we can apply the rule!
    • What does the rule state? "they are not touching even if their bases are still in physical contact (unless they overlapped)"
    • Well, they didn't overlap - therefore they are NOT touching
Edited by Klutz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...