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pendrake71

Non-Astartes Characters

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They ARE officially limited to 1000 per chapter, by the Codex Astartes, but chapters lik the Wolves and Dark Angels (I think) are non-Codex compliant, and don't bother with keeping to the thousand marine limit.

 

Yep -- and on the flipside, some Chapters may have far fewer than 1,000 due to casualties. All in all, maybe it evens out, so that the one million still makes for a good estimate, give or take a few thousand.

 

The SIsters, well there isn't even a standard size for the Orders Militant, however, there are exactly 6 Orders Majoris, and we know they all number in the thousands. I think it would be safe to assume that none of the undisclosed number of Orders Minoris have more than any of the Orders Majoris.

 

It's about time you get to read that 2E codex! It actually goes into detail about their numbers nicely. ;)

 

The six Major Orders Militant have a nominal strength of about 5,000 Sisters each, with the two Primary Convents (Prioris on Terra and Sanctorum on Ophelia VII) capable of accommodating 15,000 warriors each, but by the end of M41, their numbers have dropped to about 3,000 to 4,000 due to how difficult it is to replace higher casualties incurred in recent major conflicts.

 

The Minor Orders are said (in the 5E core rulebook) to normally have about 100 Sisters, but this number can vary tremendously, from a single squad guarding a relic/shrine or patrolling a pilgrim route, up to a Commandery of ~200 Sisters as mentioned in the 3E Codex Witch Hunters (some might even have Preceptory-size!). However, since the number of Minor Orders is not established, this does little to quantify the size of the Orders Militant as a whole.

 

The only hints we have about the overall size would be the fact that it took the Sisters of Battle 2,500 years to grow from a force of 10,000 to 30,000 (late M38, when Deacis VI decreed the foundation of the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose), so that we can extrapolate a "growth rate" that may possibly be used to calculate the rise of the Minor Orders up to M41 -- and GW's Force Disposition Charts about the 13th Black Crusade and the Third War on Armageddon, as originally published in Codex: Eye of Terror and the Armageddon 3 global campaign website and its accompanying issues of White Dwarf, but re-printed in the 6th Edition tabletop core rulebook.

 

FDC: 13th Black Crusade

FDC: Third War of Armageddon

 

As you can see, the number of Battle Sisters present compared to Space Marines is somewhat negligible.

 

My personal (very rough!) estimate would be that there is maybe about 100,000 Battle Sisters around, their comparatively small numbers in good part due to how difficult it may be to find a human being who is at least somewhat capable of keeping up with an Astartes, provided you give them the right equipment and lots of training and indoctrination.

Edited by Lynata

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They ARE officially limited to 1000 per chapter, by the Codex Astartes, but chapters lik the Wolves and Dark Angels (I think) are non-Codex compliant, and don't bother with keeping to the thousand marine limit.

 

Yep -- and on the flipside, some Chapters may have far fewer than 1,000 due to casualties. All in all, maybe it evens out, so that the one million still makes for a good estimate, give or take a few thousand.

 

The SIsters, well there isn't even a standard size for the Orders Militant, however, there are exactly 6 Orders Majoris, and we know they all number in the thousands. I think it would be safe to assume that none of the undisclosed number of Orders Minoris have more than any of the Orders Majoris.

 

It's about time you get to read that 2E codex! It actually goes into detail about their numbers nicely. ;)

Gah! I know! I'll have my copy in my hands tomorrow, I promise!  :(

Edited by Servant of Dante

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They ARE officially limited to 1000 per chapter, by the Codex Astartes, but chapters lik the Wolves and Dark Angels (I think) are non-Codex compliant, and don't bother with keeping to the thousand marine limit.

 

Yep -- and on the flipside, some Chapters may have far fewer than 1,000 due to casualties. All in all, maybe it evens out, so that the one million still makes for a good estimate, give or take a few thousand.

 

The SIsters, well there isn't even a standard size for the Orders Militant, however, there are exactly 6 Orders Majoris, and we know they all number in the thousands. I think it would be safe to assume that none of the undisclosed number of Orders Minoris have more than any of the Orders Majoris.

 

It's about time you get to read that 2E codex! It actually goes into detail about their numbers nicely. ;)

Gah! I know! I'll have my copy in my hands tomorrow, I promise!  :(

 

 

Yes. Thats 10 "hail imperators" and a dozen "Psalms of the imperial saints" as penance. Go forth amongst the stars and sinneth no more. ;)

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****, i'd have thought there'd be more SoBs than shoulder boys. I mean the shoulder boys need geneseed and whatnot. SoBs just need....amazon breeding stock. Also add in simpler power armor which is likely easier to make and maintain abd you'd expect more of them to be around.

Likewise i thought in the background the sistets...oh, excuse me, 'brides of the emperor' as they were called st the time, held off space marine chapters, adeptus mechanicus forces abd lots of monster chow...er, imperial guard at the emperor's palace during the vandire kerfuffle. I'd assumed they had yuuuuuge numbers to do that.

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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hmm, i read the eisenhorn trilogy abd i remeber how useful liz bequin was, even if she nearly made eisenhorn's head explode when she had to fake fething him to maintain her cover as a prostitute with a client. A null could be useful.

Despite the impossibility of a sexual relationship she and him did love each other.

Caiphus Caine has a null sidekick too.

Jurgen is basically a butler in my book. :P Well, a butler with poor hygiene and dress.

Yeah, and, you forget, a FRICKIN' MELTA GUN!

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****, i'd have thought there'd be more SoBs than shoulder boys. I mean the shoulder boys need geneseed and whatnot. SoBs just need....amazon breeding stock. Also add in simpler power armor which is likely easier to make and maintain abd you'd expect more of them to be around.

 

There's multiple reasons, I think.

 

One, the Sororitas take only Schola Progenium graduates who have been with the institution since infancy (probably to prevent them from having any sort of familiar attachments or memories to a previous life -- a real "tabula rasa"), which already lowers the range of potential recruits tremendously. And out of these, they only take the creme de la creme, who can actually fulfill the strict physical and spiritual requirements the Sisterhood has.

 

Secondly, it may be an intentional political limitation similar to the Codex Astartes. The Sisters of Battle are already skirting the line of the Decree Passive, and perhaps the Church has to tread carefully not to trigger an investigation by the Inquisition that may jeopardize the existence of the Orders Militant as a whole.

 

Thirdly, Marine-grade equipment is expensive, and the Sororitas have the wasteful habit of burying their dead with arms and armour. The Ecclesiarchy is filthy-rich, but it also has to distribute its wealth to a whole range of projects such as building new cathedrals, funding alms for the poor, and supporting all its other departments.

 

Fourthly, expanding the Sororitas beyond the numbers of the Marines may have considerable ramifications on a number of spiritually important traditions. They'd no longer be able to have every single Novice go to Terra to take her vows in front of the Ecclesiarch himself, for example.

 

Lastly, but not least important: They just die a lot easier than Space Marines. Even though they have comparable offensive capabilities, they just aren't as resilient, and their unaugmented bodies may not recover from injuries an Astartes would shake off after a week of rest. As hinted at above, by M41, the Orders Militant have trouble replacing combat casualties, to a point where they are losing more members than they gain anew.

 

Likewise i thought in the background the sistets...oh, excuse me, 'brides of the emperor' as they were called st the time, held off space marine chapters, adeptus mechanicus forces abd lots of monster chow...er, imperial guard at the emperor's palace during the vandire kerfuffle. I'd assumed they had yuuuuuge numbers to do that.

 

They had a force of 10,000, but they also had the palace defences which were really hard to crack, with walls many meters thick and automated gun turrets everywhere. They made the Marines (four Chapters + Martian Tech Guard) bleed for every meter they advanced through the corridors, but by the end of the fighting, when Alicia Dominica called for a ceasefire, only 4,000 were left standing.

Edited by Lynata

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I think I know what's scarier though, marine versus sister.

Sisters of battle without question. These are people with the same lack of fear that a marine has, similar arms and armour and a fanatical devotion. When something with only human capability has the same fervour and combat drive as an armoured guy then that takes some serious fem-cojones.

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I think I know what's scarier though, marine versus sister.

Sisters of battle without question. These are people with the same lack of fear that a marine has, similar arms and armour and a fanatical devotion. When something with only human capability has the same fervour and combat drive as an armoured guy then that takes some serious fem-cojones.

Exactly! THIS is the single thing that I love about Sisters the most. Plus, every once in a while, the Emperor's power manifests in them with tangible results. I wish I could give you more than 1 like . . .

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I think I know what's scarier though, marine versus sister.

Sisters of battle without question. These are people with the same lack of fear that a marine has, similar arms and armour and a fanatical devotion. When something with only human capability has the same fervour and combat drive as an armoured guy then that takes some serious fem-cojones.

Exactly! THIS is the single thing that I love about Sisters the most. Plus, every once in a while, the Emperor's power manifests in them with tangible results. I wish I could give you more than 1 like . . .

 

 

Double for sisters repentia: The ones with Eviscerator (longsword+chainsword) and "armor" that even a daemonette would call skimpy. And they will massacre you. No matter who you are.

 

sister_repentia_by_orange9714.jpg

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I think I know what's scarier though, marine versus sister.

Sisters of battle without question. These are people with the same lack of fear that a marine has, similar arms and armour and a fanatical devotion. When something with only human capability has the same fervour and combat drive as an armoured guy then that takes some serious fem-cojones.

Exactly! THIS is the single thing that I love about Sisters the most. Plus, every once in a while, the Emperor's power manifests in them with tangible results. I wish I could give you more than 1 like . . .

 

 

Living saint ftw of course...I do need to use the sisterhood more often. At the moment they are having a constant argument with a leftover force of Tau and five marines of the Emperors pointy sticks.

 

Back on point though, a sister can stand up to similar situations as an Astartes since their impressive faith, tenacity and resilience as well as a bucketload of some really nice faith powers (especially if you home brew a few from their 3rd edition codex. They won't be your best front line fighter in every situation but when you need some specialist anti-heretic/warp/daemon stuff they will be in their element.

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1. First off...  I am grateful for the initial replies that were constructive towards my issues.  The inputs were appreciated.

 

However, it seems this thread has gone off-the-rails in its focus for the topic at this (third page) point :( .

 

 

2. As an informative side note, I had given the option to use any others of the WH40K-FFG series for playing 'classes' {Exempting Black Crusade, for obvious reasons} for my coming Deathwatch campaign.  However, the Players had little love for Rogue Trader, and zero interest in Only War, thus why they chose 'classes' from Dark Heresy.

 

 

3. As a update, I sat down with both Player-A and Player-B and we discussed options and ramifications.  While I was still willing to accommodate them if they felt that actively &/or strongly about it (as both a reasonable GM and their friend), it was ultimately and mutually decided that they would play Astartes characters.

 

 - a. (female) Player-A has opted for an Ultramarine Apothecary, despite my informing her that I would be very liberal in rewarding with Fate Points to use for healing, so the Kill Team would not require a dedicated "healer".  {I will be using a different method for Fate Points, something to be posted later in House Rules forum.}

 

 - b. Player-B has chosen a Librarian, but deciding between either the Imperial Fists, or his own Player-created Chapter from Rites of Battle (Work-in-Progress, we did not have time to do much Chapter-creation rolling &/or in-depth discussion for it).  While Player-B is generally reasonable, evidenced by his not playing a 16-Dodges Vindicare Assassin dual-wielding Storm Bolters now  <_< , he is an extensive Rules Lawyer (he has a level of free time to pore over the books/rules that I am often envious of).

 

 

4. However, given the lethality of Deathwatch, we will see if they survive, or perish and wind up wanting to play a non-Astartes again.  We will see in the weeks/months to come.

Edited by pendrake71

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Ok, comparing sisters to marines is kinda unfair ad they are two radically different forces with two radically different mandates. Marines fight everywhere: spacehulks, uninhabitable planets, alien occupied worlds, everywhere. A lof of their armor and mods are about keeping 'em alive in all sorts of environments not suited for humans for long periods.

Sisters almost always fight on imperial occupied worlds, yes? They don't need all the mods to survive in uninhabitable environments. Their armor doesn't need to be suited to deep space and hostile planets.

Space marines fight everything. You name it, marines are meant to fight it.

Sisters are mostly meant to fight heretics, rebels and possibly chaos forces. They really aren't meant to fight ork invasions and such. But of course they would do their best agsinst one.

So they're different forces with different purposes, different mandates, etc. Despite power armor and bolters sisters are not 'female marines', period. Comparisons between the two are not really valid.

That said i had some thought on using sisters of battle in my DW setting and would share them and welcome feedback on them.

Given the recent (in game universe terms) arrival of genestealers as a subversive force the sister's mandate has been expanded to cover them. This has resulted in stronger ties between the adeptus soritas\ecclisiarchy and the ordo xenos, with ordo xenos inquisitors having more rights to call in sister forces to deal with suspected genestealer forces.

The 'lady bolter' stuff? FORGET IT!!! Given new menaces that sisterhood forces may be called upon to deal with as firdt effective responders (genestealers, tyranids and necrons) which did not exist when the sisterhood was formed, the sisters weaponry had been updated to equal space marine gear.

The requirements for admission to the sisterhood have been relaxed slightly. Sister recruits no longer have to go to terra to take their vows. Ossuaries containing the.bones of a deceased and interred former eccliasiarch have been dispatched to various sectors which noviate sisters may take their vows before. One is in the jericho sector.

The sisterhood has been expanded in numbers to provide more effective, loyal, rapid local first response forces to protect against black crusades, genestealer cults, etc.

Sisterhood forces are provided limited access to special bolter ammo such as hellfire for genestealers and kraken for chaos marines.

The increase in new threats to the imperium since the days of the adeptus soritas founding has made it both desirable and necessary to create more elite, well equipped and totally loyal rapid response forces to crush new meances early on. Expanding the sisterhood seemed a logical step. Events in the jericho sector are providing valuable data on the validity of this policy.

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I think I know what's scarier though, marine versus sister.

Sisters of battle without question. These are people with the same lack of fear that a marine has, similar arms and armour and a fanatical devotion. When something with only human capability has the same fervour and combat drive as an armoured guy then that takes some serious fem-cojones.

Exactly! THIS is the single thing that I love about Sisters the most. Plus, every once in a while, the Emperor's power manifests in them with tangible results. I wish I could give you more than 1 like . . .

 

 

Double for sisters repentia: The ones with Eviscerator (longsword+chainsword) and "armor" that even a daemonette would call skimpy. And they will massacre you. No matter who you are.

 

sister_repentia_by_orange9714.jpg

 

Well . . . Repentia don't wear ANY armour. They literally just have some scraps of fabric, and maybe some purity seals. For some reason 3E interpreted that as a 4+ armour save. My guess is that since the Mistress of Repentance is in Power Armour, and they didn't want to do a unit with mixed saves, they just went with a 4+, but that's just speculation.

 

Sigh. I'm sorry for pulling the thread so far off course.

 

Ok, comparing sisters to marines is kinda unfair ad they are two radically different forces with two radically different mandates. Marines fight everywhere: spacehulks, uninhabitable planets, alien occupied worlds, everywhere. A lof of their armor and mods are about keeping 'em alive in all sorts of environments not suited for humans for long periods.

Sisters almost always fight on imperial occupied worlds, yes? They don't need all the mods to survive in uninhabitable environments. Their armor doesn't need to be suited to deep space and hostile planets.

Space marines fight everything. You name it, marines are meant to fight it.

Sisters are mostly meant to fight heretics, rebels and possibly chaos forces. They really aren't meant to fight ork invasions and such. But of course they would do their best agsinst one.

So they're different forces with different purposes, different mandates, etc. Despite power armor and bolters sisters are not 'female marines', period. Comparisons between the two are not really valid.

That said i had some thought on using sisters of battle in my DW setting and would share them and welcome feedback on them.

Given the recent (in game universe terms) arrival of genestealers as a subversive force the sister's mandate has been expanded to cover them. This has resulted in stronger ties between the adeptus soritas\ecclisiarchy and the ordo xenos, with ordo xenos inquisitors having more rights to call in sister forces to deal with suspected genestealer forces.

The 'lady bolter' stuff? FORGET IT!!! Given new menaces that sisterhood forces may be called upon to deal with as firdt effective responders (genestealers, tyranids and necrons) which did not exist when the sisterhood was formed, the sisters weaponry had been updated to equal space marine gear.

The requirements for admission to the sisterhood have been relaxed slightly. Sister recruits no longer have to go to terra to take their vows. Ossuaries containing the.bones of a deceased and interred former eccliasiarch have been dispatched to various sectors which noviate sisters may take their vows before. One is in the jericho sector.

The sisterhood has been expanded in numbers to provide more effective, loyal, rapid local first response forces to protect against black crusades, genestealer cults, etc.

Sisterhood forces are provided limited access to special bolter ammo such as hellfire for genestealers and kraken for chaos marines.

The increase in new threats to the imperium since the days of the adeptus soritas founding has made it both desirable and necessary to create more elite, well equipped and totally loyal rapid response forces to crush new meances early on. Expanding the sisterhood seemed a logical step. Events in the jericho sector are providing valuable data on the validity of this policy.

Fluff wise, I would argue that the Sisters bolters have not been updated, and that they have always been equal to the Marines. Also, if you choose to say the Sisters can take their vows in different places now, well, that's your decision, but I am not going to modify what is established in anything I do.

Edited by Servant of Dante

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Well, I think most of us make a few changes to the canon universe to suit our tastes. I mean, to be honest I don't even know why i like the 40k universe at all, but I do. I got the original roughe trader hardbaxck and was into 40k for a while, on again, off again. Mostly off after a while because I came to hate GW and it's business model, which consitst of screwing the customers constantly and crushijg competition thru legalistic means.

i'd been out of it for a long time when I chanced upon a copy of deathwatch hardback, mint condition, at a game store auction for such a small amount I won't make you feel bad by telling you.

Since FFg isn't GW I bot it and still love that really stupid, ridiculous universe, I don't know why.

I mean I usually like hard SF, I really do. I like some versions of traveller, I like eclipse phase, etc. I prefer star ttek to star wars (Classic trelk, not that JJA  "Die hard in space" drivel.) I like 2001, 2010, interstellar, etc.

I really don't like fantasy outside the cthulhu mythos, I can't stand D&D. I'm not into fantasy and magic at all. I prefer SF, especially at least semi hard SF.

So why do I like the WH40K universe? I wish I knew...

I guess there's something to it that attracts something in me, I really don't understand it. I shouldn't like it. It's really a ridiculous universe, inconsistent,  requires absolute annihilation of disbelief, etc. I shouldn't like it at all. But I do. **** good wr4iters like Dan Abnett for one thing. Great visuals. Again I shouldn't like it but I do. As long as I can buy some without supporting GW and their monopolistic policies, I get 40k stuff.

But, see,there's still that big part of me that likes things that make more sense, that are more plausible, the side that likes hard SF. It really does kinda gag on some of the absolute absurdities of the 40k universe, so I kinda compromise with myself.  I just can't believe the imperium still exists after 10,000 years while being as idiotic and fanatically dogmatic as it's portrayed in most fluff. I just assume there have to be some intelligent, rational, reasonable people somewhere in it forming a little cabal, a conspiracy of pragmatism, to keep the imperium alive. I see hints of it in the 40k universe, as if even the writers are kinda winking at me at times, telling me I'm right, there are a few sane, rational people in the universe managing to keep it running.

You have the inquisitor who's palling up with that eldar farseer to save both the human and eldar races. A touch of reason. Someone's at least a little sane, even in the goddam inquisition.

Eisenhorn started out as a hardheaded fundamentalist, and evolved into a "radical" after graduation l'il inquisitor school because he saw that no matter how much dogma they whipped into him as a kid the universe wasn't black and white, there was a whole lotta grey in it, and he adapted to it and made the best of it.

So, yeah, I'm into the rationalist conspiracy too. I occasionally inject a touch of reason into the 40k universe. Some inquisitors do realize that the tau are nowhere near the threat the nids are and consider even an alliance with them. It's easier to deprogram people exposed to the tau ideology than it is to repopulate planets stripped bare by the nids. Ebongrave throws a raging fit over it? Well, things like that are why we have assassins.

We face new menaces like genestealers that can infiltrate a word, subvert the government, get into the PDF undetected? That's a new menace, we need to come up with a reaction. Sisters of battle have stringent requirements, live in isolated convents, are generally resistant to corruption of any sort, they're a good safety measure to be a first response to a genestealer incursion. Not enough of 'em? Make more! Whatever it takes. A big bottleneck is shipping them to terra and back to kneel at the ecclisiarch's feet? Send the bones of a former ecclisairch to them and let 'em kneel before them. Need more strong your girls to raise as slavering fanatics? Give strong, able bodied criminals and heretics a choice of execution or making baby girls to be adopted by the ministorum.

So yeah, I like 40k even if I\ll be damned if I understand why. Just sometimes I have to turn up the intelligence level just a little. Not breaking the universe, just making it a little easier to swallow.

That's why I might make a few tweaks that make te SoBs more numerous. It might even be kinda funny to let a KT find a genestealer cult on a world and realize that A. it's too big for them to deal with personally. B. it can still be stopped before it's too late if it's burned out NOW and C. We need to go ask the local adeptus soritas forces for aid in crushing this before it's too late. A few dozen power armored, heavily armed and devout warriors we can rest assured aren't corrupted on influenced like the local PDF probably is are just what we need. They're women? So what? Swallow your pride, do your duty and go ask them for help, marine! (just don't send the librarian to ask...)

I keep the 40k universe pretty intact in spirit. I just add a little touch of reason here and there to make it easier for me to swallow. I fiugure the imperium must be adapting to new threats, and hell, the Jericho sector is a nice, remote lab to experiment with possible reactions and new ideas in an environment where A. You have fairly little to lose and B. it's isolated enough form the imperium at large that things may not spread out f hand if they go wrong.

in fact, getting into that whole conspiracy upon conspiracy, cogs within cogs, plot upon plot mentality of 40k, maybe, just maybe, the imperium is interested in the jericho sector to serve as a remote laboratory to experiment with the horrors of change to see if some changes work and produce acceptable results. Maybe thet's why the high lords want to sector badly enough to pour all those resources into it. They have to know the imperium is dying a slow death of stagnation and want to try a few new things, but in a remote, siolated but still large area that they can use as a lab. That sort of appeals to me.

Your tastes will vary, of course.

 

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I personally love the "fantasy in space" vibe, combining my 2 favorite genera. I like the technology=basically magic, or at least the mechanicus treats it that way. I like the themes that verge on the ridiculous. I like to take it all at face value, and just really get into it. The Tyranids are easy enough to track that if all you want is a couple dozen Sisters on each planet in their path, well you could probably arrange that (for now, at least).

 

And if you are talking about being dogmatic, there is no more dogmatic agency in the Imperium than the Adepta Sororitas. They are on par with the hardliners of the Mechanicus in terms of inflexibility.

 

I admit it, I LOVE that bordering on psychopathic refusal to change, refusal to give even an inch, even in the face of extinction. And I love that it has worked for the Sororitas for over 5,000 years.

 

But I see what you are saying. It would be realistic to try and increase the number of Sororitas by changing the requirements, but that would absolutely ruin the experience for me.

 

You should do what you want, and I can say I totally agree that there are reasonable Inquisitors/High Lords/Lord Generals/Space Marines who keep the Imperium ticking in the background, but that definition of "reasonable" is what every Sister in the Imperium would call Heresy.

 

TL;DR: My opinion is that the Imperium has what Tanhauser considers reasonable people, but not a single Sister is one of those people.

Edited by Servant of Dante

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Oh, I'd agree with you, dear Sister. The SoBs are fanatical raving cannon fodder. I'm assuming that they are however under the control of people who are at least vaguely reasonable and pragmatic from time to time. So, yeah,new menaces come up that did not exist at the time the sisterhood was founded. Enlarging and improving the sisterhood is the logical, practical response. So, some people in the upper echelons of the imperium maybe lean a litle on the ecclisiarchy and next things you know boxes o' bones are being shipped out to various sectors to make it easier to swear new sisters in rather than shipping them all the way to terra and back. "Don't worry your purdy l'il heads none, sisters, it's all the emperor's will, and you wouldn't want to deny the emperor's will, would you?" So far more recruits get inducted into the adeptus soritas by kneeling to a box of long dead bones that once had an ecclisairch wrapped around them.

Also this new xenos menace can root itself into the very bowles of an imperial world, so the sisters need to have closer ties with the ordo xenos, again all in the emperor's name.  Don't worry none, tho. Here, let us give you some shiny new bolter shells to deal with your new four armed problems. You'll like these, they're called Hellfire bolts! See how much the emperor loves you to give you these?

 

Like I say, if that ordo chronos female inquisitor is willing to rub shoulders with an eldar, there are some people with a little moe sense and a little less fanaticism than the average imperial citizen. I think the imperium depends on them as much as it does on the emperor.

BTW, I'm not ragging on the sisterhood at all. I actually kinda admire them in some ways. I just face up to the fact they're being brainwashed into fanatical shocktroops and used by people who see them as useful, replaceable tools and exploit the loyalty and fanaticism they carefully inculcate into them from childhood. So the sisters can remain as fanatically obdurate as you like them, Servant of dante, they're just being used by more level headed types which kind of adds a sad but noble touch to them. it strikes me as no trick to have each one kneel to an ossuary and swear an oath, as even in death an ecclisiarch remains the representative of the emperor. Just have the current, still breathing eccliasiarch declare it was revealed to him in a vision by the emperoro himself and that silences all dissent among the sisterhood.


I also kinda like the idea of having some big bad macho marine man having to go knock on a convent door and ask if he can borrow a couple squads of battle sisters because they've found a genestealer cell that's too big for his 5 man team to take on alone... :D  And don't tell me you don't like that idea too, servant of dante.

 

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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BTW, I know I take a cynical view towards some things, but just remember there are some very cynical inquisitors who suspect that if all the holy bones of Sebastian Thor were to be gathered and assembled, the ecclisiarchy would be shocked-Shocked! I say!- to discover that it's holiest saint was in fact a 2 headed, triple jointed, 12 limbed giant... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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BTW, I know I take a cynical view towards some things, but just remember there are some very cynical inquisitors who suspect that if all the holy bones of Sebastian Thor were to be gathered and assembled, the ecclisiarchy would be shocked-Shocked! I say!- to discover that it's holiest saint was in fact a 2 headed, triple jointed, 12 limbed giant... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm writing a longer reply, but I just have to cut in here. Thor WAS THE ECCLESIARCH, and before that he TRAVELED THE GALAXY GIVING LIVE SERMONS. It is absolutely, utterly, uninaginably impossible that he was a giant mutant. I have no other response for this.

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The Adepta Sororitas at large is only beholden to the Ecclesiarch himself, and I can't imagine he inserts himself into their operations often.

gallery_83651_12132_116102.jpg

2nd Edition Codex: Sisters of Battle page 34

 

Within the Adepta Sororitas, the Abbess is in charge, but she is missing at the moment, so control would fall to the 2 Prioresses of the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum on Terra and Ophelia VII respectively. So your only hope is that Decius XXVIII decides to force the Sisters to change 5000 year old traditions against their will.

 

Oh, I'd agree with you, dear Sister. The SoBs are fanatical raving cannon fodder. I'm assuming that they are however under the control of people who are at least vaguely reasonable and pragmatic from time to time. So, yeah,new menaces come up that did not exist at the time the sisterhood was founded. Enlarging and improving the sisterhood is the logical, practical response. So, some people in the upper echelons of the imperium maybe lean a litle on the ecclisiarchy and next things you know boxes o' bones are being shipped out to various sectors to make it easier to swear new sisters in rather than shipping them all the way to terra and back. "Don't worry your purdy l'il heads none, sisters, it's all the emperor's will, and you wouldn't want to deny the emperor's will, would you?" So far more recruits get inducted into the adeptus soritas by kneeling to a box of long dead bones that once had an ecclisairch wrapped around them.

 

This is incredibly patronizing, and I am a little upset. You would say that to a Space Marine Chapter Master? No? Then don't go saying it to the leadership of the Sisters. I get that you are probably referring to the Ecclesiarch saying something to that effect, but I doubt it would get him more than a glare from someone like a Prioress. I apologize for my outburst.

Also this new xenos menace can root itself into the very bowles of an imperial world, so the sisters need to have closer ties with the ordo xenos, again all in the emperor's name.  Don't worry none, tho. Here, let us give you some shiny new bolter shells to deal with your new four armed problems. You'll like these, they're called Hellfire bolts! See how much the emperor loves you to give you these?

 

Again with the patronizing. You do understand that you are more than likely to get your head shot of, right? That asside, I have no problem with Sisters fighting xenos. They are, by their very existance, heretics, after all.

 

Like I say, if that ordo chronos female inquisitor is willing to rub shoulders with an eldar, there are some people with a little moe sense and a little less fanaticism than the average imperial citizen. I think the imperium depends on them as much as it does on the emperor.

 

Sisters just aren't who you are looking for if you want an open mind, and a willingness to change. I don't mind the Inquisitor doing stuff with Xenos (from an objective point of view), but I'll still brand her a heretic and shoot her if I see her.

BTW, I'm not ragging on the sisterhood at all. I actually kinda admire them in some ways. I just face up to the fact they're being brainwashed into fanatical shocktroops and used by people who see them as useful, replaceable tools and exploit the loyalty and fanaticism they carefully inculcate into them from childhood. So the sisters can remain as fanatically obdurate as you like them, Servant of dante, they're just being used by more level headed types which kind of adds a sad but noble touch to them. it strikes me as no trick to have each one kneel to an ossuary and swear an oath, as even in death an ecclisiarch remains the representative of the emperor. Just have the current, still breathing eccliasiarch declare it was revealed to him in a vision by the emperoro himself and that silences all dissent among the sisterhood.

 

Who exactly is "using" them? No one outside the Adepta Sororitas has any sway (except for the Inquisition, and exploiting people is kinda their MO). The Canonesses and Prioresses of the Sisters are the most fanatical and devoted of them all. The Sisters know exactly what they are doing - dying for the God-Emperor of mankind. I suppose you are refering to the Imperial Guard General who petition the Sisters for aid. Well, some of them may view the Sisters as expendable lunatics, but that's their loss. The Sisters may be well aware that they are being "used". I also don't prefer the term brainwashed, but it kinda is :P.

 

"Just have the Ecclesiarch knowingly lie to the Sisters" GAH! I guess that it could happen. He's not a Sister, after all. :P But as fanatical as the Sisters are, they aren't stupid, and they know their faith. I bet you would be supprised how fast they would catch his lie.

I also kinda like the idea of having some big bad macho marine man having to go knock on a convent door and ask if he can borrow a couple squads of battle sisters because they've found a genestealer cell that's too big for his 5 man team to take on alone... :D  And don't tell me you don't like that idea too, servant of dante.

 

Of course I love it!

 

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Well,that comment about cynical inquisitors and thoe bones of Thor was printed in some official GW product long ago, I can't remember what it was. The point is so many sites in the imperium claim to have authentic bones of sebastian thor that if you gathered and assembled every bone that was sworn to be a holy relic of sebastian thor you'd get a 2 headed, triple jointed, 12 limbed giant....

In other words, most of the "authentic holy relics" that are claimed to be the bones of sebastian thor...ain't.

 

 

The Adepta Sororitas at large is only beholden to the Ecclesiarch himself, and I can't imagine he inserts himself into their operations often.

gallery_83651_12132_116102.jpg

2nd Edition Codex: Sisters of Battle page 34

 

Within the Adepta Sororitas, the Abbess is in charge, but she is missing at the moment, so control would fall to the 2 Prioresses of the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum on Terra and Ophelia VII respectively. So your only hope is that Decius XXVIII decides to force the Sisters to change 5000 year old traditions against their will.

 

Oh, I'd agree with you, dear Sister. The SoBs are fanatical raving cannon fodder. I'm assuming that they are however under the control of people who are at least vaguely reasonable and pragmatic from time to time. So, yeah,new menaces come up that did not exist at the time the sisterhood was founded. Enlarging and improving the sisterhood is the logical, practical response. So, some people in the upper echelons of the imperium maybe lean a litle on the ecclisiarchy and next things you know boxes o' bones are being shipped out to various sectors to make it easier to swear new sisters in rather than shipping them all the way to terra and back. "Don't worry your purdy l'il heads none, sisters, it's all the emperor's will, and you wouldn't want to deny the emperor's will, would you?" So far more recruits get inducted into the adeptus soritas by kneeling to a box of long dead bones that once had an ecclisairch wrapped around them.

 

This is incredibly patronizing, and I am a little upset. You would say that to a Space Marine Chapter Master? No? Then don't go saying it to the leadership of the Sisters. I get that you are probably referring to the Ecclesiarch saying something to that effect, but I doubt it would get him more than a glare from someone like a Prioress. I apologize for my outburst.

Also this new xenos menace can root itself into the very bowles of an imperial world, so the sisters need to have closer ties with the ordo xenos, again all in the emperor's name.  Don't worry none, tho. Here, let us give you some shiny new bolter shells to deal with your new four armed problems. You'll like these, they're called Hellfire bolts! See how much the emperor loves you to give you these?

 

Again with the patronizing. You do understand that you are more than likely to get your head shot of, right? That asside, I have no problem with Sisters fighting xenos. They are, by their very existance, heretics, after all.

 

Like I say, if that ordo chronos female inquisitor is willing to rub shoulders with an eldar, there are some people with a little moe sense and a little less fanaticism than the average imperial citizen. I think the imperium depends on them as much as it does on the emperor.

 

Sisters just aren't who you are looking for if you want an open mind, and a willingness to change. I don't mind the Inquisitor doing stuff with Xenos (from an objective point of view), but I'll still brand her a heretic and shoot her if I see her.

BTW, I'm not ragging on the sisterhood at all. I actually kinda admire them in some ways. I just face up to the fact they're being brainwashed into fanatical shocktroops and used by people who see them as useful, replaceable tools and exploit the loyalty and fanaticism they carefully inculcate into them from childhood. So the sisters can remain as fanatically obdurate as you like them, Servant of dante, they're just being used by more level headed types which kind of adds a sad but noble touch to them. it strikes me as no trick to have each one kneel to an ossuary and swear an oath, as even in death an ecclisiarch remains the representative of the emperor. Just have the current, still breathing eccliasiarch declare it was revealed to him in a vision by the emperoro himself and that silences all dissent among the sisterhood.

 

Who exactly is "using" them? No one outside the Adepta Sororitas has any sway (except for the Inquisition, and exploiting people is kinda their MO). The Canonesses and Prioresses of the Sisters are the most fanatical and devoted of them all. The Sisters know exactly what they are doing - dying for the God-Emperor of mankind. I suppose you are refering to the Imperial Guard General who petition the Sisters for aid. Well, some of them may view the Sisters as expendable lunatics, but that's their loss. The Sisters may be well aware that they are being "used". I also don't prefer the term brainwashed, but it kinda is :P.

 

"Just have the Ecclesiarch knowingly lie to the Sisters" GAH! I guess that it could happen. He's not a Sister, after all. :P But as fanatical as the Sisters are, they aren't stupid, and they know their faith. I bet you would be supprised how fast they would catch his lie.

I also kinda like the idea of having some big bad macho marine man having to go knock on a convent door and ask if he can borrow a couple squads of battle sisters because they've found a genestealer cell that's too big for his 5 man team to take on alone... :D  And don't tell me you don't like that idea too, servant of dante.

 

Of course I love it!

 

 

You do know that I wasn't being patronizing towards anyone, I was basically reflecting the likely attitude the High lords have towards the sisters, right? I was laying on the cynicism a little heavy, I admit.

And I have no doubt many in the High echelons of the imperium see the marines as little more than expensive guard dogs that need to be watched carefully. They pat their genetically hardened heads and tell them they're good boys, but at heart they see them as simply parts of a defense network and need to be watched lest they go astray or start thinking for themselves.

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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I think the only "fanatic" here is you... for f*cks sake don't get so triggered by an actual reasonable post on this forum about your oh-so precious Sisters of Battle.

They're not an important part of the lore, they're not a popular army, their implementation into the setting borders on laughable when you actually read about it and to be frank they are a boring take on the Ecclesiarchy as a whole.

You find it unreasonable that the Sisters would be expanded? Well let me respond with how the Imperium simply does not care. They don't care about your "force" of 100k battle nuns spread across the galaxy thinner than butter on toast, not when actual forces like the Tempestus Scions and the Imperial Guard exist to combat the enemies of the Emperor. Your precious Sisterhood is a small bunch of lunatics given far more equipment and attention than they deserve considering the tiny contribution they actually make to the safety of the Imperium.

So just shut up and stop cramming your own stubborn ideals down everyone's throat.

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I think the only "fanatic" here is you... for f*cks sake don't get so triggered by an actual reasonable post on this forum about your oh-so precious Sisters of Battle.

They're not an important part of the lore, they're not a popular army, their implementation into the setting borders on laughable when you actually read about it and to be frank they are a boring take on the Ecclesiarchy as a whole.

You find it unreasonable that the Sisters would be expanded? Well let me respond with how the Imperium simply does not care. They don't care about your "force" of 100k battle nuns spread across the galaxy thinner than butter on toast, not when actual forces like the Tempestus Scions and the Imperial Guard exist to combat the enemies of the Emperor. Your precious Sisterhood is a small bunch of lunatics given far more equipment and attention than they deserve considering the tiny contribution they actually make to the safety of the Imperium.

So just shut up and stop cramming your own stubborn ideals down everyone's throat.

Uh, please, please. I think this reply was a little uncalled for. I like servant of dante and I enjoy discourse with her. I suppose she thought in some way I was personally being disparaging towards women, which I honestly wasn't, when I was just trying to reflect the cynical attitude the high lords probably take towards tradition when survival is on the line. I admit my cynicism was a little heavy, but I thought i was clear that I'm not disparaging them, the high lords and other higher ups likely just see them as things to be manipulated and exploited for maximum gain. Just like the do the space marines, the imperial guard, the imperal fleet, etc.. Dress everything up in "Duh emprerers will!" and watch everyone snap to attention and sing hymns as they're being marched off to the meatgrinder.

maybe when I called her "dear sister" she thought that was patronizing. Uh,no that was an acknowledgement of her avatar. Like when I call that one guy with the gold toothed goblin avatar "My little greenskin filth friend". It's not literal, it's just a friendly  joke about someone's chosen avatar in the 40k vernacular. Hell, if she called me "Follower of the false machine god" I'd laugh.

And I do think the Adeptus soritatas is actually more important than the numbers would indicate. Sure, few in number, but high in dedication. Fanatically loyal to the imperium and the emperor, in fact. They're very, very hard to corrupt, given they live in a cloistered convent and are subject to constant reinforcement of their faith and checked for purity all the time. They are less likely to become corrupted by heresy, chaos, genestealers, etc. They serve as an important first response force to any sign of a heretical cult spreading perniciously thru an imperial world, chaos infiltration, genestealer invasion, etc. They've probably nipped quite a few possible uprisings and rebellions in the proverbial bud and prevented the need for the fleet, the imperial guard, space marines, etc, to come in and utterly devastate a world to stamp out heresy and sedition. They've probably saved a lot of valuable, productive imperial worlds from being massively damaged and their vital productivity curtailed for years. If they can crush trouble before it explodes across a world, they preform a vital and powerful service to the imperium.

In fact I think they're important enough to justify expanding their numbers considerably. That's why I advocated the on thew surface holy and righteous idea of sending ossuaries containing the bones of deceased ecclisiarchs out to various sectors to facilitate the expansion of the sisterhood's numbers. Sure, it seems like a holy order of the emperor himself and his divine will, but it could also be a very cynical ploy by condescending manipulators to get more women to become slavering fanatic shock troops.

I never meant for anything I posted to inflame things so much, I was just trying to take a more practical view of the 40k universe (the imperium anyway) and imagined how cynical some of the higher powers in it might be and how it's so easy to manipulate ignorant fanatics, which is why the powers that be create so many...

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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I think the only "fanatic" here is you... for f*cks sake don't get so triggered by an actual reasonable post on this forum about your oh-so precious Sisters of Battle.

They're not an important part of the lore, they're not a popular army, their implementation into the setting borders on laughable when you actually read about it and to be frank they are a boring take on the Ecclesiarchy as a whole.

You find it unreasonable that the Sisters would be expanded? Well let me respond with how the Imperium simply does not care. They don't care about your "force" of 100k battle nuns spread across the galaxy thinner than butter on toast, not when actual forces like the Tempestus Scions and the Imperial Guard exist to combat the enemies of the Emperor. Your precious Sisterhood is a small bunch of lunatics given far more equipment and attention than they deserve considering the tiny contribution they actually make to the safety of the Imperium.

So just shut up and stop cramming your own stubborn ideals down everyone's throat.

Um . . . I apologize. I knew I was coming on a bit strong, and I realize that I do take a bit of an in-character stance on all of this, but I feel the opinion you express here is a little more purposefully pointed than mine was. I was simply arguing for the fluff as it stands. Of course it may be reasonable to expand the Sisters, but that isn't happening in the fluff, so I argue against portraying such an event.

 

Additionally, I was only thinking about my conversation with Tanhauser. I didn't mean to make anyone else upset. I apologize for having this discussion in a public thread, rather than a PM. I did not intend to "shove my ideas down your throat." You are free to simply ignore me, a random nobody typing stuff on the internet.

 

I did react a bit more emotionally that perhaps I should have, but I do love my Sisters. Again, I apologize for not taking a more measured tone.

 

 

 

I think the only "fanatic" here is you... for f*cks sake don't get so triggered by an actual reasonable post on this forum about your oh-so precious Sisters of Battle.

They're not an important part of the lore, they're not a popular army, their implementation into the setting borders on laughable when you actually read about it and to be frank they are a boring take on the Ecclesiarchy as a whole.

You find it unreasonable that the Sisters would be expanded? Well let me respond with how the Imperium simply does not care. They don't care about your "force" of 100k battle nuns spread across the galaxy thinner than butter on toast, not when actual forces like the Tempestus Scions and the Imperial Guard exist to combat the enemies of the Emperor. Your precious Sisterhood is a small bunch of lunatics given far more equipment and attention than they deserve considering the tiny contribution they actually make to the safety of the Imperium.

So just shut up and stop cramming your own stubborn ideals down everyone's throat.

Uh, please, please. I think this reply was a little uncalled for. I like servant of dante and I enjoy discourse with her. I suppose she thought in some way I was personally being disparaging towards women, which I honestly wasn't, when I was just trying to reflect the cynical attitude the high lords probably take towards tradition when survival is on the line. I admit my cynicism was a little heavy, but I thought i was clear that I'm not disparaging them, the high lords and other higher ups likely just see them as things to be manipulated and exploited for maximum gain. Just like the do the space marines, the imperial guard, the imperal fleet, etc.. Dress everything up in "Duh emprerers will!" and watch everyone snap to attention and sing hymns as they're being marched off to the meatgrinder.

 

Ah, this makes much more sense to me, also, thank you, and again, I am sorry for responding as emotionally as I did. I actually don't mind having the High Lords try to manipulate the Sisters, as long as we don't forget that these Sisters recieved the same education as many intelligent imperial servants, and that the Orders Diologus are entirely dedicated to research and record keeping, so, I would think they are pretty intelegent. Oh, and for the record, I'm a he :lol:. It's just that all my 40k energy has gone towards the Sisters for the last year, so I have adopted Sisters art for my profile pictures. I knew I should have noted my gender in my signature . . . :P

maybe when I called her "dear sister" she thought that was patronizing. Uh,no that was an acknowledgement of her avatar. Like when I call that one guy with the gold toothed goblin avatar "My little greenskin filth friend". It's not literal, it's just a friendly  joke about someone's chosen avatar in the 40k vernacular. Hell, if she called me "Follower of the false machine god" I'd laugh.

 

Ah, I took it as you where patronizing an in-universe Sister, since (as a he :P) I tend to think of myself as a Ministorum Priest, even though I tend to respond in character as a Sister. If I had realized the comment was directed me I would have said something tounge-in-cheek, like "How dare you look down upon a loyal servant of the Emperor, you faithless circuit worshiper!"

 

Gah! Sorry I misconstrued that one. Never considered you thought I myself was female.

And I do think the Adeptus soritatas is actually more important than the numbers would indicate. Sure, few in number, but high in dedication. Fanatically loyal to the imperium and the emperor, in fact. They're very, very hard to corrupt, given they live in a cloistered convent and are subject to constant reinforcement of their faith and checked for purity all the time. They are less likely to become corrupted by heresy, chaos, genestealers, etc. They serve as an important first response force to any sign of a heretical cult spreading perniciously thru an imperial world, chaos infiltration, genestealer invasion, etc. They've probably nipped quite a few possible uprisings and rebellions in the proverbial bud and prevented the need for the fleet, the imperial guard, space marines, etc, to come in and utterly devastate a world to stamp out heresy and sedition. They've probably saved a lot of valuable, productive imperial worlds from being massively damaged and their vital productivity curtailed for years. If they can crush trouble before it explodes across a world, they preform a vital and powerful service to the imperium.

 

Agreed. Nothing further to say here, on my part.

In fact I think they're important enough to justify expanding their numbers considerably. That's why I advocated the on thew surface holy and righteous idea of sending ossuaries containing the bones of deceased ecclisiarchs out to various sectors to facilitate the expansion of the sisterhood's numbers. Sure, it seems like a holy order of the emperor himself and his divine will, but it could also be a very cynical ploy by condescending manipulators to get more women to become slavering fanatic shock troops.

 

I guess I don't disagree, it's just that the fluff as written does not include such an action, so for me that means it isn't happening at this time. Might be something for Decius to keep in mind, going into M42. It would certainly be grand to see entire armies of Sisters ranging across the Imperium doing His will! As for the vows, I think they could accomadate many thousands at a time on Terra, and if anything, they could just do vows multiple days of the year. The bigger issue would be training facilities, but for all I know, the Ecclesiarchy could simply *ahem* "acquire" some more land on Ophelia VII for additional training facilities, or maybe on nearby plannets. The can;t have more than a couple thousand (if that) Novices in a given year, and a plannet can support training facilities for far larger groups.

 

I guess I never took the time to clear up the issue I had with your idea . . . wow I'm an idiot :lol:

I never meant for anything I posted to inflame things so much, I was just trying to take a more practical view of the 40k universe (the imperium anyway) and imagined how cynical some of the higher powers in it might be and how it's so easy to manipulate ignorant fanatics, which is why the powers that be create so many...

 

Not that our views match exactly, but it looks like it was mostly me misreading your words. Again, I apologize for that.

 

Edited by Servant of Dante

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Ah, I took it as you where patronizing an in-universe Sister, since (as a he :P) I tend to think of myself as a Ministorum Priest. If I had realized the comment was directed me I would have said something tounge-in-cheek, like "How dare you look down upon a loyal servant of the Emperor, you faithless circuit worshiper!"
 

(Roy Batty voice) Yes! That's the spirit!|  Note that "cog head" or "cog lover" would have been acceptable insults too. The term "cog lover" was used in the DH product "Lathe worlds".

I honestly had the imp0ression you were female, no offense was meant not that it should be taken as an offense if someone doesn't automatically assume you're a male. Actually I was hoping you were a femme as it would be utterly fascinating to have a female player in this oh so drearily  masculine universe...
 

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

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