HERO's BigFish vs Lyraeus's Dodonna the Oppressor

[User1138 36]

Nice list but, I don't understand what the benefit of tractor beam on the Transports is.

Flotillas count as small ships don't they? So the tranctor beam can only target small ships.

Is reducing the speed of small ships by one really such an advantage to be worth 12 points?

[Ginkapo 9,320]

Nice list but, I don't understand what the benefit of tractor beam on the Transports is.

Flotillas count as small ships don't they? So the tranctor beam can only target small ships.

Is reducing the speed of small ships by one really such an advantage to be worth 12 points?

Demolisher and MC30s are small ships and both rely on speed to such a great extent.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Well according to these forums, I'm always wrong, so I'm going to vote Lyr to win.

 

Edit: Honest analysis though, I tend to underrate the MC80 and XI7s both so HERO's fleet doesn't come off that intimidating to me. As long as Lyr flies his MC30s well, I think he's got a good chance.

HAHAHAHA! I love the vote of confidence.

 

Nice list but, I don't understand what the benefit of tractor beam on the Transports is.

Flotillas count as small ships don't they? So the tranctor beam can only target small ships.

Is reducing the speed of small ships by one really such an advantage to be worth 12 points?

As Ginkapo stated, it is a way to stop Demolisher, MC30's and other small ships. I can even slow down small ships benefiting from cracken to make them easier to take down. 

[CenterPoint 268]

it could be - remember all the gladiators and mc30s out there are small ships too, and slowing them down might keep those transports out of black range

[CenterPoint 268]

ninja'd

[moodswing5537 1,415]

 

And Lyr's list is a fun one to play against.  Did so in round 3 of the tournament. I'd love a rematch ... hint hint Lyr :-)

You can have one

 

I love this list but it makes me a raging Ahole late at night when I start making stupid avoidable mistakes. Well. . .I guess it does whenever I make stupid mistakes

<rant> I don't care if you make stupid mistakes. I think we all do. One thing I can't stand is when a player says that his/her mistakes were the reason the opponent won. People win and lose because of EVERYTHING that happened in the game. When you say that they only won because you made mistakes, or this game "was mine to lose", you disrespect your opponent and the game. </rant>

 

Personally I'm glad you guys are finally getting it on. I was at the point of "just shut up and do it" a few hundred posts back. You both sound like an old married couple. And I will be glad to see DtO in action again. It's always been a personal favorite of mine.

 

But I won't even field a guess on this one. I think both fleets have the potential to slay.   Please post the date and time. This may be a full gallery....

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Is reducing the speed of small ships by one really such an advantage to be worth 12 points?

Well in my first game using them, I slowed down a MC30 Torpedo frigate for the bulk of a game so that it would run into rocks and could not escape or even get to use its blue armament.

 

Against Demolisher it is about trapping her so that I can slow her down and keep her from engine teching away. 

[Hastatior 1,444]

I'd have to go for Lyr here.

 

I think that with activation advantage and good deployment he has a solid chance of front-bumping the turd with an MC30 (I mean, I can do it with ISDs if I have more than 1, MC30s should be a breeze!)

 

Also don't underestimate the power of dodonna. Lyr has a high % chance of landing a LOT of crits and (as I learned at regionals) the wrong crit at the wrong time can make a painful difference (GD comms noise %$$%).

 

Hero is no slouch but the activation and flexibility advantage will be too much. Slicer tools on a turd (if he can pull it off) can also be devastating by taking away a crucial nav command at the right time!

Keep in mind also that he can set up some no-win choices with the transports and activation advantage (take out my transport and eat a Dodonna crit from MC30 OR shoot at MC30 and risk slicer tools landing)

 

It all hinges on how effective Lyr is as boxing in and crippling the turd.

[ryanabt 1,188]

Gotta say that as many times as I have seen DtO on this forum, I never knew the list. Quite nice and I like the update with two flotillas. It seems to have some rock solid thought behind it. Of the two lists, I would MUCH prefer flying DtO than AtD.

That said, and while I think Lyr will get this, I am gonna bet on HERO because everyone is voting Lyr and I love an underdog!

[Lyraeus 4,759]

 

 

And Lyr's list is a fun one to play against.  Did so in round 3 of the tournament. I'd love a rematch ... hint hint Lyr :-)

You can have one

 

I love this list but it makes me a raging Ahole late at night when I start making stupid avoidable mistakes. Well. . .I guess it does whenever I make stupid mistakes

<rant> I don't care if you make stupid mistakes. I think we all do. One thing I can't stand is when a player says that his/her mistakes were the reason the opponent won. People win and lose because of EVERYTHING that happened in the game. When you say that they only won because you made mistakes, or this game "was mine to lose", you disrespect your opponent and the game. </rant>

 

Personally I'm glad you guys are finally getting it on. I was at the point of "just shut up and do it" a few hundred posts back. You both sound like an old married couple. And I will be glad to see DtO in action again. It's always been a personal favorite of mine.

 

But I won't even field a guess on this one. I think both fleets have the potential to slay.   Please post the date and time. This may be a full gallery....

 

You can rant about it all you want. Have you ever had a game that was your game to lose? Where you had the game, knew you had the game but just did something that made it go down hill?

 

If not then I am not sure you can understand how it eats are you, how it can just rip you apart because in the end, it was your fault.

 

I ALWAYS assume that a player I don't know will play the game the right way, they wont make mistakes, and they will make all the right moves. This way I can plan for that and if they do mess up I can pounce on that. If they don't they played as anticipated and did a good job. To me a good job is a high compliment. 

 

I have had people play unexpectedly and dominate the game. ArmadaJim has done that, and that was AMAZING! That game had me making mistakes as well but I was in the unknown and that was fun! A frustratingly fun game where I learned new things. 

 

It is condescending, I know it is but that is how I think. I am not trying to demean my opponents or anything, that is just my mindset on it. 

[DerErlkoenig 975]

Mogrok can attest that I lost our Regionals game because of my own mistake.

A very, very poor decision allowed me to heroically ****** defeat from the jaws of victory.

This was a hugely substantive single error. I positioned one ship wrong and it cost me about 207 points, and likely deprived me of taking out his last 60 points (plus that would've been a table, and I'd have gotten his ~30 point bid.)

There's no guarantee that I would've actually tabled him - but I would've won for sure, and the tabling looked pretty likely.

All of that swung to a ~90 MoV win for him, because of one mistake I made. I wouldn't say it usually comes down to one error, this game did.

Edit: really? S natch is censored? That's a bit out there.

Edited August 9, 2016 by DerErlkoenig

[Caldias 2,209]

 

 

And Lyr's list is a fun one to play against.  Did so in round 3 of the tournament. I'd love a rematch ... hint hint Lyr :-)

You can have one

 

I love this list but it makes me a raging Ahole late at night when I start making stupid avoidable mistakes. Well. . .I guess it does whenever I make stupid mistakes

<rant> I don't care if you make stupid mistakes. I think we all do. One thing I can't stand is when a player says that his/her mistakes were the reason the opponent won. People win and lose because of EVERYTHING that happened in the game. When you say that they only won because you made mistakes, or this game "was mine to lose", you disrespect your opponent and the game. </rant>

 

 

Completely agree, there.  I don't think there's anyone out there who has ever played a "perfect" game of Armada, meaning always optimal deployment and play, and that's part of why this game is so great.  There's so many moving parts.  A lot of people that complain about "mistakes" costing them the game are really talking about being outplayed.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Mogrok can attest that I lost our Regionals game because of my own mistake.

A very, very poor decision allowed me to heroically ****** defeat from the jaws of victory.

This was a hugely substantive single error. I positioned one ship wrong and it cost me about 207 points, and likely deprived me of taking out his last 60 points (plus that would've been a table, and I'd have gotten his ~30 point bid.)

There's no guarantee that I would've actually tabled him - but I would've won for sure, and the tabling looked pretty likely.

All of that swung to a ~90 MoV win for him, because of one mistake I made. I wouldn't say it usually comes down to one error, this game did.

Edit: really? S natch is censored? That's a bit out there.

Not if you are American it is not. . . 

 

There are games in Armada where you can watch your loss for 5 turns. . . I have had that happen. I have had new players comment on that. I have games, so many games where I made a mistake, and that mistake just causes me to tilt because I know it will cost me the game. So far there has only been 1 game that I have had absolutely no control over, CNinja gets the claim to that game. 

 

Armada is not an easy game. There are so many variables that can go wrong.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

 

 

 

And Lyr's list is a fun one to play against.  Did so in round 3 of the tournament. I'd love a rematch ... hint hint Lyr :-)

You can have one

 

I love this list but it makes me a raging Ahole late at night when I start making stupid avoidable mistakes. Well. . .I guess it does whenever I make stupid mistakes

<rant> I don't care if you make stupid mistakes. I think we all do. One thing I can't stand is when a player says that his/her mistakes were the reason the opponent won. People win and lose because of EVERYTHING that happened in the game. When you say that they only won because you made mistakes, or this game "was mine to lose", you disrespect your opponent and the game. </rant>

 

 

Completely agree, there.  I don't think there's anyone out there who has ever played a "perfect" game of Armada, meaning always optimal deployment and play, and that's part of why this game is so great.  There's so many moving parts.  A lot of people that complain about "mistakes" costing them the game are really talking about being outplayed.

 

You have never had it happen then. Go and play a game where the victory is in the bag, where both people know that you will win the game and then make a simple mistake. Plan an Engineering command instead of a Nav, or take 1 more click on a turn then you needed, hell, you could get forget that while they cant attack at Long range with a shot due to a crit they sure can at medium range. OH and my personal favorite, fly right into the maws of 4 Gladiators

 

There is no "perfect game" however you should go into the game thinking that a player will make the most optimal choices. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Lyraeus

[Jondavies72 575]

My vote is for a draw due to:

Both of them getting about half way through the game before getting tangled up in an argument over the meaning of "tactics" which then goes on until one of them realises that it's now 7 am and they both have to go to work.....

[Lyraeus 4,759]

My vote is for a draw due to:

Both of them getting about half way through the game before getting tangled up in an argument over the meaning of "tactics" which then goes on until one of them realises that it's now 7 am and they both have to go to work.....

hahaha, thankfully I work at 11

[GrandMoffMatt 958]

I am ready for Grand Moff Matt the Oppressor.

 

wait...that's after beans.

[moodswing5537 1,415]

 

 

 

And Lyr's list is a fun one to play against.  Did so in round 3 of the tournament. I'd love a rematch ... hint hint Lyr :-)

You can have one

 

I love this list but it makes me a raging Ahole late at night when I start making stupid avoidable mistakes. Well. . .I guess it does whenever I make stupid mistakes

<rant> I don't care if you make stupid mistakes. I think we all do. One thing I can't stand is when a player says that his/her mistakes were the reason the opponent won. People win and lose because of EVERYTHING that happened in the game. When you say that they only won because you made mistakes, or this game "was mine to lose", you disrespect your opponent and the game. </rant>

 

Personally I'm glad you guys are finally getting it on. I was at the point of "just shut up and do it" a few hundred posts back. You both sound like an old married couple. And I will be glad to see DtO in action again. It's always been a personal favorite of mine.

 

But I won't even field a guess on this one. I think both fleets have the potential to slay.   Please post the date and time. This may be a full gallery....

 

You can rant about it all you want. Have you ever had a game that was your game to lose? Where you had the game, knew you had the game but just did something that made it go down hill?

 

If not then I am not sure you can understand how it eats are you, how it can just rip you apart because in the end, it was your fault.

 

I ALWAYS assume that a player I don't know will play the game the right way, they wont make mistakes, and they will make all the right moves. This way I can plan for that and if they do mess up I can pounce on that. If they don't they played as anticipated and did a good job. To me a good job is a high compliment. 

 

I have had people play unexpectedly and dominate the game. ArmadaJim has done that, and that was AMAZING! That game had me making mistakes as well but I was in the unknown and that was fun! A frustratingly fun game where I learned new things. 

 

It is condescending, I know it is but that is how I think. I am not trying to demean my opponents or anything, that is just my mindset on it. 

 

Oh yeah, I've had plenty of those games. CNinja can attest to the fact that I have beaten myself plenty...

 

IN GAMES, YOU SICK ANIMALS!

 

I'm just saying that there is always at least two ways to look at something. Yes, you may have made the error that cost you the game, but brow-beating your opponent instead of talking about the game constructively does nothing but show poor sportsmanship. I believe this for any competitive game or sport.  

[Caldias 2,209]

 

 

 

 

And Lyr's list is a fun one to play against.  Did so in round 3 of the tournament. I'd love a rematch ... hint hint Lyr :-)

You can have one

 

I love this list but it makes me a raging Ahole late at night when I start making stupid avoidable mistakes. Well. . .I guess it does whenever I make stupid mistakes

<rant> I don't care if you make stupid mistakes. I think we all do. One thing I can't stand is when a player says that his/her mistakes were the reason the opponent won. People win and lose because of EVERYTHING that happened in the game. When you say that they only won because you made mistakes, or this game "was mine to lose", you disrespect your opponent and the game. </rant>

 

 

Completely agree, there.  I don't think there's anyone out there who has ever played a "perfect" game of Armada, meaning always optimal deployment and play, and that's part of why this game is so great.  There's so many moving parts.  A lot of people that complain about "mistakes" costing them the game are really talking about being outplayed.

 

You have never had it happen then. Go and play a game where the victory is in the bag, where both people know that you will win the game and then make a simple mistake. Plan an Engineering command instead of a Nav, or take 1 more click on a turn then you needed, hell, you could get forget that while they cant attack at Long range with a shot due to a crit they sure can at medium range. OH and my personal favorite, fly right into the maws of 4 Gladiators

 

There is no "perfect game" however you should go into the game thinking that a player will make the most optimal choices. 

 

Hey man, EVERYONE has had a game that looked like it was going well and then turned the other way.  And I'll even say it is fair to say making a mistake contributed to your opponent winning.  But saying that your mistake is the ONLY reason you lose is just being a jerk, plain and simple.  

 

Turn it the other way.  Have you had a game where your opponent made a mistake that you then capitalized on?  Would you say you won only because your opponent made a mistake?  Because I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that, and yet everyone somehow loses their games due to a mistake.  

[DerErlkoenig 975]

Mogrok can attest that I lost our Regionals game because of my own mistake.

A very, very poor decision allowed me to heroically ****** defeat from the jaws of victory.

This was a hugely substantive single error. I positioned one ship wrong and it cost me about 207 points, and likely deprived me of taking out his last 60 points (plus that would've been a table, and I'd have gotten his ~30 point bid.)

There's no guarantee that I would've actually tabled him - but I would've won for sure, and the tabling looked pretty likely.

All of that swung to a ~90 MoV win for him, because of one mistake I made. I wouldn't say it usually comes down to one error, this game did.

Edit: really? S natch is censored? That's a bit out there.

Not if you are American it is not. . . 

 

There are games in Armada where you can watch your loss for 5 turns. . . I have had that happen. I have had new players comment on that. I have games, so many games where I made a mistake, and that mistake just causes me to tilt because I know it will cost me the game. So far there has only been 1 game that I have had absolutely no control over, CNinja gets the claim to that game. 

 

Armada is not an easy game. There are so many variables that can go wrong.

No, I know why it's censored. I just don't think it should be.

Yeah, this wasn't a case where it was clear cut the whole game. In about a turn and a half I took out 3 of his 4 glads in a 4 glad no squadron list.

He took out my ISD, but I still had full squadrons, and my own Demolisher. Our glads were heading towards each other, and I maneuvered extremely poorly (I had other options) giving him the double arc, destroying me for the table.

Without that poor maneuver we'd have exchanged some shots - but my squadrons likely would've finished him off. Even if they didn't, I would've won.

Of course I didn't play a perfect game. I wouldn't even necessarily say I outplayed him. I don't recall all the details, but the game was just shaking out in my favor. Until I wrecked that real hard.

[BMcDonald7 437]

Looking forward to this game. I think a big question is Hero going to be rusty or have you been playing enough Armada as of late?

Regarding the tractor beams on the flotillas I just want to check. Are flotillas considered to be a different size class or are they just grouped into small because they use a small base? Would the new size classes be flotilla/small/medium/large thus meaning a flotilla can't tractor a small based Gladiator? I'm just asking as I'm not sure if we have updates to the rules that clarify this.

[Madaghmire 7,274]

I had reserved a write up space higher but so much has come down so I'll leave it here;

Matchup of the Moment: Dodonna the Oppressor Vs. Big Fish
The Portland Pulverizer takes on the So-Cal Strangler in alliterative anarchy! Help, Help I’m being Oppressed takes on a film I did not see in theatres! Come see the violence inherent in the system!

I don’t want to talk much about the lists themselves, because the designers of both have already gone on to great lengths about what each list is designed to do. Or at least Hero has on his blog. I’m not sure if Lyr has ever even mentioned his list. Instead, I’m going to focus on the matchup.

What’s working for Lyraeus and his top secret list;

- Activations! At a commanding 6 activations, Lyr has the potential to really set the tempo of the match.
- Deployments: Lyr has only a slight edge at 6 deployments to 5, but it means he can hold his big hitters in reserve until he sees how Hero wants to set up. This becomes especially true if Hero decides to play first, as then Lyr would have 2 deployments where he has a complete picture of Hero’s deployment.
- If Hero’s list were a cake, it would be Fudgey the Whale, and DtO is extremely well suited to go whaling. Lots of guaranteed damage and Intel Officer means Hero will have to manage his use of defense tokens extremely well. Additionally, Dodonna helps makes sure that any APT crits that come up come up nasty, and the wrong one could be disastrous.
- Slicer Tools: Hero has no command dial manipulation, but he does take Engine Techs on his MC80 to give it that extra bit of speed and maneuverability. He’ll have at least one, possibly two turns of nav to use as a buffer, but assuming he has a token banked he will only be able to count on that one token’s worth of Engine Tech use. Alternatively, if Lyr manages to put say, a Depowered Armament on Ole Fudgey, he could slice away any hope of repair. (Slice away? Get it? Cuz Fudgey is a cake! My daughter hates me.)
- Sending waves and waves of his own men until the kill bots meet their quota- It’s silly but it’s true, a little bitty transport can block a big ole Star Cruiser. Positioning is key.

Hero’s Never Die! And here’s why;

- Initiative! I think we all agree that initiative is good to have. Sun Tzu said so, and who am I to argue with Sunny T? It’s particularly good in this case, because DtO really, really wants to go first. And Hero can completely take that away. Alternatively, if he just feels super great about his objectives then he can force Lyr to pick from them. The important thing is that it’s his call.
- Squadrons: Hero has a couple! I guess. He doesn’t have any bombers, but he has 4 very fast black dice that don’t much of anything to fear on the other side of the board. The Yt’s, in particular, will be able to start buzzing around quickly. I predict he gets 4-5 attacks with the YT’s and 2-3 from the A’s. Which can be a nice bump in damage if he’s able to apply it in the right spot.
- XI7’s- Oh man, this card is basically a giant foam middle finger to MC30’s. Also not fun for CR90’s.
- Home One- While not terribly effective against the redundant defense tokens of the MC30’s, it does a great job of mitigating blank rolls from the AFMK2, and allows both the AFMK2 and CR90 to slap down those pesky slicer tool laden transports without fear of scatter.
- Phylon Slacker Beams- Normally a lovely add, the points Lyr invested on tractor transports are practically dead weight in this one, as only the TRC90 is a viable target. They could still work out great and lock Jaina’s Light down in the dark might or force Hero to spam a nav or two he would rather have been Conc Fire, but I think that they are going to wind up seeing little action in this one.
- One Shot Popping- Ackbar and Xi7’s mean that Lyr could lose any ship in a single blow from Fudgey the Unsatiable. The AFMK2 is also a threat to one shot a corvette, although the dice would have to be hot.


So who wins? We all do, because anytime you get a little hype behind a match between two good players like this, it’s fun for everyone. But I guess I should keep It to the competitors;

Lyr wins if- He can leverage his activation advantage and damage modifiers to take Home One or the AFMK out early without significant losses.

Hero wins if- He can avoid taking massive MC30 broadsides in his front arc.

Good luck to both players, hope everyone enjoyed the write up!

Edited August 10, 2016 by Madaghmire

[Lyraeus 4,759]

 

 

 

 

And Lyr's list is a fun one to play against.  Did so in round 3 of the tournament. I'd love a rematch ... hint hint Lyr :-)

You can have one

 

I love this list but it makes me a raging Ahole late at night when I start making stupid avoidable mistakes. Well. . .I guess it does whenever I make stupid mistakes

<rant> I don't care if you make stupid mistakes. I think we all do. One thing I can't stand is when a player says that his/her mistakes were the reason the opponent won. People win and lose because of EVERYTHING that happened in the game. When you say that they only won because you made mistakes, or this game "was mine to lose", you disrespect your opponent and the game. </rant>

 

Personally I'm glad you guys are finally getting it on. I was at the point of "just shut up and do it" a few hundred posts back. You both sound like an old married couple. And I will be glad to see DtO in action again. It's always been a personal favorite of mine.

 

But I won't even field a guess on this one. I think both fleets have the potential to slay.   Please post the date and time. This may be a full gallery....

 

You can rant about it all you want. Have you ever had a game that was your game to lose? Where you had the game, knew you had the game but just did something that made it go down hill?

 

If not then I am not sure you can understand how it eats are you, how it can just rip you apart because in the end, it was your fault.

 

I ALWAYS assume that a player I don't know will play the game the right way, they wont make mistakes, and they will make all the right moves. This way I can plan for that and if they do mess up I can pounce on that. If they don't they played as anticipated and did a good job. To me a good job is a high compliment. 

 

I have had people play unexpectedly and dominate the game. ArmadaJim has done that, and that was AMAZING! That game had me making mistakes as well but I was in the unknown and that was fun! A frustratingly fun game where I learned new things. 

 

It is condescending, I know it is but that is how I think. I am not trying to demean my opponents or anything, that is just my mindset on it. 

 

Oh yeah, I've had plenty of those games. CNinja can attest to the fact that I have beaten myself plenty...

 

IN GAMES, YOU SICK ANIMALS!

 

I'm just saying that there is always at least two ways to look at something. Yes, you may have made the error that cost you the game, but brow-beating your opponent instead of talking about the game constructively does nothing but show poor sportsmanship. I believe this for any competitive game or sport.  

 

I dont try to brow beat my opponent. I admit freely that they played the game right and good. I cant tell them they did a great job, that is just a lie. I will not lie to people. 

 

I talked about the game with ArmadaJim, we discussed it and I even showed him my counter and we talked shop. It was good and I learned lessons I had not before. 

 

I am very hard on myself, it is a bad quality I think personally but it is deeply rooted and I am working on it. 

 

 

 

 

Hey man, EVERYONE has had a game that looked like it was going well and then turned the other way.  And I'll even say it is fair to say making a mistake contributed to your opponent winning.  But saying that your mistake is the ONLY reason you lose is just being a jerk, plain and simple.  

 

Turn it the other way.  Have you had a game where your opponent made a mistake that you then capitalized on?  Would you say you won only because your opponent made a mistake?  Because I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that, and yet everyone somehow loses their games due to a mistake.  

 

Sure, I have taken advantage of opponents mistakes. I claim those as a bad mistake from my opponent. I played properly but they messed up and that cost them the game. I did good, not great. That is my mindset. 

[PT106 2,316]

You have never had it happen then. Go and play a game where the victory is in the bag, where both people know that you will win the game and then make a simple mistake. Plan an Engineering command instead of a Nav, or take 1 more click on a turn then you needed, hell, you could get forget that while they cant attack at Long range with a shot due to a crit they sure can at medium range. OH and my personal favorite, fly right into the maws of 4 Gladiators

 

There is no "perfect game" however you should go into the game thinking that a player will make the most optimal choices. 

Lyr, what you're saying is true, however this also falls into the realm of being outplayed (you made one more mistake than your opponent). I was in situations where my mistake could've cost me the game, but the opponent didn't capitalize on it/made his own mistake and lost the game as a result. So one can never say that he lost only because of his own mistakes. Saying "the game was mine to lose" is different though - in my mind it means that the matchup is so advantageous to one side that with perfect play on both sides and average luck that side should win.  

Edited August 9, 2016 by pt106

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Looking forward to this game. I think a big question is Hero going to be rusty or have you been playing enough Armada as of late?

Regarding the tractor beams on the flotillas I just want to check. Are flotillas considered to be a different size class or are they just grouped into small because they use a small base? Would the new size classes be flotilla/small/medium/large thus meaning a flotilla can't tractor a small based Gladiator? I'm just asking as I'm not sure if we have updates to the rules that clarify this.

Flotilla's are small ships. They use a small ship base and are thus small ships.