Jump to content
Jegergryte

Enhance - the force leaping madness

Recommended Posts

It's just an odd situation. We have cinematic proof that one can leap into engaged range of a target and away from engaged range of a target. If the power allows you to leap to ANY location within short range or medium with the Range upgrade, then one should be able to jump to ANY location.

 

Example: I use leap to jump right behind a bunch of containment crates; I am now engaged with them and I have some cover between myself and the adversaries.

 

If it's true that you have to separately engage/disengage, then it throws out the RAW that you can leap to ANY location within your range.

 

Example: I use leap to jump behind the crates, however, I cannot leap directly behind them even though the power says ANY location within range, so I am only near them about 1-2 meters away and they are providing no cover at all.

Edited by GroggyGolem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the way I would explain this is that you can Force-leap to any location within Medium range, but you still have to move to Engage with an awake and unwilling sentient being.

So, yeah — you could leap to be Engaged with those boxes, because they’re not sentient.

But if you want to leap to Engage with a Stormtrooper, then you’re going to have to leap to a point that is within Short range of him, and then make a separate Maneuver to get into Engaged range.

At least, that’s the way it feels at the moment for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except Yoda leaps to engage/disengage awake & unwilling sentient beings in AotC multiple times, Anakin leaps to engage in both AotC & RotS, Obi-Wan leaps to disengage in RotS, Palpatine leaps to engage in RotS, Luke leaps to disengage in ESB & RotJ...

 

This may be a point where I will have to house-rule it for my groups, if that is really how it works, because there's more than enough evidence it's possible from a cinematic standpoint. From a game standpoint, the power is supposed to represent things we've seen done in the franchise & something like allowing you to leap to ANY location, except right next to that one guy, doesn't make sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Enhance does allow you to leap directly into an engagement, provided your target is within range of the power. This is part of the great utility of the power.

Edit: It exists as an alternative to the maneuver/movement system, and thus is not subject to its inherent limitations.

Edited by awayputurwpn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Enhance does allow you to leap directly into an engagement, provided your target is within range of the power. This is part of the great utility of the power.

Edit: It exists as an alternative to the maneuver/movement system, and thus is not subject to its inherent limitations.

This is my take on the rules too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to say that i heard that episode, and it was part of them talking about the new free running talent. At that point they didn't really delve into the rules and i think they just answered what came to their mind as that same GM Phil i think or one of the other hosts simply answered "Yeah Cool Cool... " in a manner very similar to some one doing something else at that same point (sorry if you are reading this and i am wrong, but it sounded the same as when you speak to your friend on the phone and he is on Facebook at the moment, not completely there).

 

I would go with the explanation that it does allows you to engage or disengage the target because it sounds more nerratively cool, but also because the force powers tend to be a way for characters to buy abilities or talents they wouldn't be able to otherwise. The Hawk Bat Swoop not only allows you to engage but also grants advantages, your character is not an Ataru Striker but you still want to be mobile so you buy the enhance and get a semblance of that ability. Or in another case, you want to be more charming but you are shadow, so you buy the Influence power and gain a semblance of what the Consular and Guardian gain in their talents.

 

In this spirit i think it's not game breaking to allow this rule of cool to pass (and it also costs 50 xp which is not that cheap, so allowing to engage/ disengage sounds about right for that investment).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Enhance does allow you to leap directly into an engagement, provided your target is within range of the power. This is part of the great utility of the power.

Edit: It exists as an alternative to the maneuver/movement system, and thus is not subject to its inherent limitations.

This is my take on the rules too.

However it isnt correct either as written or intended it is not called out in its description like hawkbat swoop specifically does. Go listen to the order66 sentinel book episode and listen to the q&a section where Sam points out that only powers that say they allow you to engage an opponent can get you to engaged range. The wording of force leap only gets you to short range not engaged. If I have misread it somewhere and force leap does allow you to engage please tell me what page it is on.

As for disengage, given that the same conversation from the order66 podcast , GM phil mentions on a force leap only an action would let you move between combats, even if you could disengage using it you would be able to engage another combat in the same round as you could then

1 disengage by leaping to short range of another combat with maneuver 1

2 engage with maneuver 2

3 even leaving you an action

So no need in this case to use leap as an action.

So if I am wrong , then both GM Phil and Sam Stewart were wrong on the order66 podcast, and the wording of the force ability requires some major errata.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was my question about Free Running that was being answered at the time so yes I have listened. I understand why Freerunning is excluded from engaging or disengaging. Sams explanation was based on the Freerunning description which states "When making a move manoeuvre..."

The Enhance Force Power has not got that wording within it. It's description says "the user may make a Force Leap Action." Then in the latter upgrade it says "may make a Force Leap Action as a manoeuvre". It never says anything about making a move manoeuvre, which is the thing that's limited.

To be clear I still sit on the fence as to which way the devs will actually go with this, but I like the cinematic feel of leaping into and out of combat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In case one of you is going to ask the dev's please word your question carefully. I have seen too many questions in the Frequently asked section that barely get the issue across and many times do not simply because they tried making it very short or something.

(Saber throw thread for example, could have explained more of the issue and the answer we got is lacking to say the least).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I very much agree with you there M. Let's write the question as a group then, better to have editors than a bad question. I'll start us off, keeping it simple but anyone add to or modify it as needed.

Can a player using the Force Leap Action from the Enhance Force Power use it to Engage or Disengage?

If yes then does that also allow them to do so to or from Medium Range and as a Manoeuvre with the appropriate upgrades?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Suggested edit, with American-style syntax for ease of reading (I kept your British spelling cuz it's cool!):

 

 

 Can a player using the Force Leap Action from the Enhance Force Power use it to Engage or Disengage as part of the leap?

If yes, then does that also allow them to engage or disengage when leaping to, or from, Medium Range (and as a Manoeuvre with the appropriate upgrades)?

Edited by awayputurwpn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was my question about Free Running that was being answered at the time so yes I have listened. I understand why Freerunning is excluded from engaging or disengaging. Sams explanation was based on the Freerunning description which states "When making a move manoeuvre..."

The Enhance Force Power has not got that wording within it. It's description says "the user may make a Force Leap Action." Then in the latter upgrade it says "may make a Force Leap Action as a manoeuvre". It never says anything about making a move manoeuvre, which is the thing that's limited.

To be clear I still sit on the fence as to which way the devs will actually go with this, but I like the cinematic feel of leaping into and out of combat.

I would be with others on this if it hadnt have been for that answer on the podcast which made me re-read the rules in particular the rules on move where the distances travelled are worded identically to 2 of the 3 parts of the leap ability. Move lets you - move to another location in short range, basic leap lets you leap to another location in short range. Move lets you change range bands from short to medium or medium to short. Range upgraded leap lets you leap from short to medium range. I dont think the almost identical wording (apart from the method of movement) is coincidental , this coupled with Sams statment that only force talents like Hawkbat Swoop that specifically call out that you can engage as part of the talent let you do that.

All I would ask is read pages 208/9 and read up the movement options , read the hawkbat swoop description, where it gives you the best example of a talent that allows you to engage as part of it's ability. Then go read the force leap descriptions. Then go back and compare to the move options again. Note what is missing from leap that is listed in move, which is the option to engage and disengage.

Edited by syrath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also add :

 

"should the enhance leap count as "twice the distance you travel with 1 maneuver" if you have the upgrade and can spend pips on it?

Allowing for travel of short to extreme in one turn? (2 maneuvers and 1 action stacked together)"

 

This way we can kill another bird on the way :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also add :

"should the enhance leap count as "twice the distance you travel with 1 maneuver" if you have the upgrade and can spend pips on it?

Allowing for travel of short to extreme in one turn? (2 maneuvers and 1 action stacked together)"

This way we can kill another bird on the way :D

Yes, the range upgrade says

"Spend a force point to increase the maximum range the user can jump by the number of range upgrades purchased. THE USER MAY NOT ACTIVATE THIS MULTIPLE TIMES."

so they can increase the basic power from moving anywhere in within short range to anywhere in medium range." So, discounting engaging/disengaging is the same distance you can travel with the move maneuver, because it allows you 3 options , move to another location in short range, move to medium (or medium to short) and moves third option is to engage/disengage.

I would also add :

"should the enhance leap count as "twice the distance you travel with 1 maneuver" if you have the upgrade and can spend pips on it?

Allowing for travel of short to extreme in one turn? (2 maneuvers and 1 action stacked together)"

This way we can kill another bird on the way :D

Yes, the range upgrade says

"Spend a force point to increase the maximum range the user can jump by the number of range upgrades purchased. THE USER MAY NOT ACTIVATE THIS MULTIPLE TIMES."

so they can increase the basic power from moving anywhere in within short range to anywhere in medium range." So, discounting engaging/disengaging is the same distance you can travel with the move maneuver. Move allows you 3 options , move to another location in short range, move from short to medium (or medium to short) and moves third option is to engage/disengage.

Edited by syrath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's confusing for sure. And good idea to get as many questions as possible answered

But here is my understanding, let's try getting the question more thorough and clear:

Two questions compiled by some forum members:

1.

Can a player using the Force Leap Action from the Enhance Force Power use it to Engage or Disengage as part of the leap?

If yes, then does that also allow them to engage or disengage when leaping to, or from, Medium Range (and as a Manoeuvre with the appropriate upgrades)?

2.

How many Force Leaps with the Range Upgrade are required to reach Extreme Range?

Is it 3, Start-Medium-Long-Extreme

Or is it 5, Start-Medium-Medium2-Long-Long2-Extreme

For reference it's my understanding that normally moving to Short is considered moving around an area while moving to Medium is considered "going somewhere not here." So no matter how many manoeuvres you make within Short range your not actually getting closer to anything outside that little bubble. Of course things need to be a little realistic so a couple of Short range Manoeuvres could be considered getting to Medium, but only if the GM says so.

So I think the answer there will be 5 Manoeuvres, so 2 turns if you burn 2 Strain and your Action on one of the turns.

Edited by Richardbuxton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is hard to explain for me, but I'll give it a go.

Moving to anywhere within Short range doesn't get you across the battlefield.

When performing a single Move manoeuvre you have three choices:

1. Move from where you are to anywhere within Short range

2. Move from where you are to anywhere within Medium range.

3. Engage from Short or Disengage to Short.

So you don't have to spend a Manoeuvre to get through Short to Medium, you just go straight there.

Therefore Moving to Short doesn't make progress toward anywhere else, you still need to go to Medium before heading for Long

Moving from Medium to Extreme takes another 4 "Start to Medium" manoeuvres.

Basic Force Leap allows you to move anywhere within Short... you can't actually get anywhere!

The Range upgrade allows you to Move to Medium, something you can already do with just a single Move manoeuvre.

So if it takes 5 Move manoeuvres to get from an unengaged position to Extreme from that position then I can only assume Force Leap requires the same amount.

Now if you can Disengage as part of that first Leap then you can save yourself a manoeuvre. Same goes at the other end for Engaging your target.

Edit: Sorry if that came across as clinical or rude, I just wanted it simple to follow.

Edited by Richardbuxton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't catch a wif of cynicism nor rudeness, don't worry  :)
 
yeah, now i understand. But the way you wrote the second question doesn't explain this like that i think.
 
How about this :

 

 

How many Force Leaps with the Range Upgrade are required to reach Extreme Range?
Is it 3, Start-Medium-Long-Extreme (counting leaps as equal to 2 move maneuvers, or twice the distance)
Or is it 5, Start-Medium-Medium2-Long-Long2-Extreme (counting leaps as normal distance) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be with others on this if it hadnt have been for that answer on the podcast which made me re-read the rules in particular the rules on move where the distances travelled are worded identically to 2 of the 3 parts of the leap ability. Move lets you - move to another location in short range, basic leap lets you leap to another location in short range. Move lets you change range bands from short to medium or medium to short. Range upgraded leap lets you leap from short to medium range. I dont think the almost identical wording (apart from the method of movement) is coincidental , this coupled with Sams statment that only force talents like Hawkbat Swoop that specifically call out that you can engage as part of the talent let you do that.

All I would ask is read pages 208/9 and read up the movement options , read the hawkbat swoop description, where it gives you the best example of a talent that allows you to engage as part of it's ability. Then go read the force leap descriptions. Then go back and compare to the move options again. Note what is missing from leap that is listed in move, which is the option to engage and disengage.

 

I think you're putting too much stock into a single statement made off the cuff in a podcast. The jist of the discussion was, Phil basically said "you can use Enhance/Force Leap to engage" and Sam agreed and gave a couple other examples, and then basically said "but those talents specifically call out that you can engage," and the context was a reply to a specific question about the Freerunning talent, where the answer was no, you can't use the talent to engage, because Freerunning specifically modifies the "maneuver to Move." Context is a pretty big deal in interpretation, and this is why this discussion only tangentially supports the view that a Force Leap can be used to engage an opponent, with Phil offering it up as an example off the top of his head and Sam agreeing with him.

 

However, the key for me is the phrase any location in the "Force Leap" upgrades of the Enhance power.
 
That word is absent from all the other rules examples above, and if read literally then you can see how one might assume that you can simply Force-leap into an engagement. Note that using a maneuver to "move" (pp 208-209) allows an unengaged character to either move "between range bands" or "to another location within short range." Force Leaping, on the other hand, allows the Force user to jump to any location within short range (or any location within medium range, if the upgrade is purchased and you've got another Force point to spend) as an action, or, with the appropriate upgrade, as a maneuver instead.  
 
Bottom line, the Force Leap doesn't behave like Move maneuvers and is not subject to the same limitations. It is a completely different set of rules. They both have some crossover in utility and application, to be sure, but they work differently at a fundamental level—and this is as it should be. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take the exact phrase in context.

You can move to any location IN SHORT RANGE

Now look at the wording of move

Moving within short range: performing this maneuver allows an unengaged character to move to another position that is currently WITHIN SHORT RANGE OF THE CHARACTER.

Now onto the engage/disengage from an opponent ; if a character is already within short range of a character, the character can perform a maneuver to engage that target.(*) if the character iis engaged with an opponent or adversary, he must perform a maneuver to disengage from that opponent before moving to another location. This only changes his range relative to his opponent from engaged oo short and represents the effort of backing away and avoiding his opponents attacks

Note here this isn't asking for a move maneuver it is asking for a disengage maneuver before you can move anywhere else regardless of how you move , this is the rule that Sam refers to in the podcast. Only if the talent specifies that you can do otherwise does a talent actually break this rule eg preemptive avoidance and hawkbat swoop for example.

(*) I apologise for being wrong earlier you cannot engage a friendly as an incidental only disengage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we're talking past each other. I see where you're coming from, but I simply don't agree that the two rules are similar enough to warrant applying standard maneuver limitations to a Force power. To my estimation, they are completely different rules.

 

On a separate note, if you want to rule that the only way to disengage from an opponent is to perform the disengage maneuver (unless a specific rule says otherwise) then Hawk Bat Swoop wouldn't actually allow you to disengage from an engagement, because it doesn't say anything about disengaging. So it wouldn't work the way you're saying it would work. But the way I read the rules, Hawk Bat Swoop and Force Leap would both allow for disengagement, even though neither of them specifically mention disengagement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...