Jump to content
Jegergryte

Enhance - the force leaping madness

Recommended Posts

Though I don't see a real problem either. I just think 3 maneuvers per turn goes against the spirit of the game. It is no big deal either way. As mentioned jetpacks are way more powerful in this regard than force leap anyway. 

 

The game allows you to take an extra maneuver if you are willing to pay the strain. Two maneuvers and an action (3) is well within the spirit of the rules -- insofar as you do indeed pay.

 

 

Edited by Vondy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The preemptive avoidance talent (sage and seer) lets you to pay 1 destiny to disengage from an engaged opponent as an out of turn incidental. Combine it with a force leap maneuver and wallah!

Did you mean “voilà”?   ;)

 

 

Tongue in cheek.

 

No. I meant the lowbrow slang version of said term commonly used by blue collar Americans who, while they may know hoity-toity frenchified loan words, wish to avoid any whiff of white collar pretentiousness. Or showing away with diacritical fripperies. Ergo, "Wallah," the h indicating the writer does not intend not the Hindi word for a person of consequence.   :P

Edited by Vondy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The game allows you to take an extra maneuver if you are willing to pay the strain. Two maneuvers and an action (3) is well within the spirit of the rules -- insofar as you do indeed pay.

Right, so long as that’s just Two Maneuvers, no more. The Action can be anything appropriate, so long as it’s not another maneuver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The question I have about it is the way it's worded. The way it is written seems to indicate that the base force leap ability only lets you leap to something that is already in the short range band of you & it does not actually allow you to move range bands or engage/disengage. The only part of the power that seems to indicate you can move range bands is the Range upgrade, the full description of which states:

 

"Spend [Force point] to increase the maximum range the user can jump by the number of Range upgrades purchased. The user may not activate this multiple times. Remember that the user must still spend Force points to activate the power's actual effects."

 

From the description of the Range upgrade, to me it seems to indicate that only by using the Range upgrade's effect can one actually change range bands, thereby meaning you need to spend 2 force points every time you wish to move range bands, meaning at most, with the ability to leap 3 times in a round means you only travel 1 more range increment than simply using move maneuvers.

 

Does anyone else see what I'm talking about? Is that how it's supposed to work?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GroggyGolem,

I think you're getting into splitting hairs there.

 

Admittedly this is based upon my interpretation of what the designers intended with the rules, but to moving into or out of engaged is akin to D&D's 5-foot step to avoid an attack of opportunity.  Main difference being this system doesn't have an attack of opportunity mechanic, which makes sense as combat rounds aren't defined in number of seconds like most tactical-focused RPGs.

 

Now with Force Leap, anywhere within short range would include suddenly landing (or leaving) the space right next to a person, automatically putting you at engaged.  We actually see Obi-Wan do exactly that to Darth Maul just before cutting the Sith Lord's career as a major villain short, going from short range (dangling several feet in that pit) to engaged (standing right next to Maul) before striking.  Granted, replicating the scene exactly within the rules hits a bit of a snag when Obi-Wan also uses Move to pull Qui-Gon's lightsaber to his hand since that'd certainly be his action for the round.

 

Granted, we saw Anakin try the same stunt and suffer horribly for it, but that can probably be attributed to Anakin succeeding on his combat check, but with Despair giving Obi-Wan a chance to use Improved Parry, and dealing enough damage with his fully modded lightsaber to push Anakin well over his wound threshold and the GM* being creatively sadistic in how this new NPC gets taken out of the fight.

 

We also see Luke use a Force Leap in his fight with Vader in RotJ to very quickly get away (leaving engaged), first landing amidst a bunch of control panels and then very quickly after leaping away again to that railing well out of Vader's immediate reach, giving the young Jedi some breathing room (or so he thinks) and thus a chance to try and reach Vader's buried humanity.  Personally, I'd say Vader's strike at the control panels in between Luke's jumps are just narrative description by the GM to create a sense of pressure on Luke's player and evoke a parallel to their prior duel on Bespin where Vader was generally unrelenting in his pursuit of the less-experienced young Jedi.

 

*While the rules say you can keep playing a character once they've fallen to the dark side (Morality dips under 30), this GM had a house-rule that similar to past Star Wars RPGs, once a character goes dark side they become an NPC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, that's only answering part of what I was asking about. The other part was about the way it's written regarding the range upgrade. It allows you to move range bands equal to the purchased range upgrades and nothing else in the power indicates one can move range bands. This makes me think that the furthest you could move in a single leap is 1 range band increment.

I'm trying to understand what the real intent is when it's written in a way that's confusing when considering what the written rules are for moving normally (for instance, you can take a move maneuver specifically to move to anything in short range of yourself but that's separate from moving to change range bands and also separate from moving to engage/disengage).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's more the Range Upgrade was written wonky, since there's only one available in the entire power tree, and you can't activate it multiple times, yet it's worded similar to other Range Upgrades for powers that have multiple instances of such and allow multiple activations of such.

 

How I run it is that the Range Upgrade for the Force Leap simply replaces "anyplace within short range" with "anyplace within medium range."  I leave it up to the player if the power's usage is described as one big physics-defying leap, a bunch of smaller jumps (shouting "PARKOUR!" is optional though not actively discouraged), a simple speed-run from Point A to Point B, or some combination of the three.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point is that given how it's written, each time you activate the Range upgrade, you should only be traveling 1 range band increment. Meaning you can only go 1 more increment further than moving normally. Example: sniper at long rage: you leap twice as maneuvers & now you're in medium range. Leap once as an action and now you're in short range.

 

That's how the power and Range upgrade read when taking into account the normal rules for movement. Basically it's just 3 move maneuvers that take you the same amount of distance but they ignore difficult terrain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So re-read the Range upgrade for Enhance.  And yeah, it's a lot more complicated than it needs to be since there's only a single Range Upgrade in the entire tree.

 

Again, I think you're overthinking it.  The Enhance Range upgrade (at least how I read it) changes the distance you can move with a single activation of Force Leap from anywhere in short range to anywhere within medium range, much like how Range upgrades for the Move power change the distance you can affect* and move an object from short range; activate two Range upgrades for Move and you can affect any object within Long Range, and float/hurl that object to any other point within Long Range, all as a single action.

 

So what the Enhance Range Upgrade should really be saying is "When taking the Force Leap action, spend FP to have the user leap to any location within medium range.  The user may not activate this upgrade multiple times."

 

Force Leap pretty much ignores the default rules for moving through range bands, which is very much the power's intent, letting the user potentially cover far more ground with a single action (or maneuver if you've got that last Control upgrade) than a mundane could with a single maneuver as well as ignore the effects of difficult/impassable terrain.

 

*It's been cited by Sam Stewart that for Move, the Range upgrades increase both the range at which you can target an object as well as how far you can float/hurl it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, so what you're saying is in my previous example of a target at long range, you could leap 2 times, going first from long to medium, then medium to engaged and then attack?

Actually you can leap from long to medium, this takes two leaps, then from medium to short , which is one maneuver, then you have to use a maneuver to engage. So 3 leaps get you to short, and 1 more to engage, before you can attack.

With the single range upgrade you at best can move from medium to short or short to medium. Without the upgrade you can jump to another point within short range. You cannot use the leap to engage or disengage. Without having a way to break the 2 maneuver per round limit, the best you can do is

Start at long range -use 2 maneuvers to get from long to medium either as a leap or just move (leaping allows you to ignored any gaps or rpoht terrain). Use your action to force leap to short range.

Next turn use hawk bat swoop to be able to engage and attack in the same action. You cannot use leap to engage. If you don't have hawk bat swoop you can use your maneuver to engage then you can attack.

Force leap doesn't get you any further than a standard move maneuver does,

Standard move maneuver can get you the following

1/ move to another location in short range

2/ move from short to medium range

3/ engage or disengage

Standard force leap can do 1/

Force leap with it's single range upgrade can do 2/

Neither of these can do 3/

So there is no way a single leap can move you any more than a standard move maneuver and that is the range upgraded leap. In other words it takes 2 leaps to go from medium to long and 2 from long to extreme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Alright, so what you're saying is in my previous example of a target at long range, you could leap 2 times, going first from long to medium, then medium to engaged and then attack?

Actually you can leap from long to medium, this takes two leaps, then from medium to short , which is one maneuver, then you have to use a maneuver to engage. So 3 leaps get you to short, and 1 more to engage, before you can attack.

With the single range upgrade you at best can move from medium to short or short to medium. Without the upgrade you can jump to another point within short range. You cannot use the leap to engage or disengage. Without having a way to break the 2 maneuver per round limit, the best you can do is

Start at long range -use 2 maneuvers to get from long to medium either as a leap or just move (leaping allows you to ignored any gaps or rpoht terrain). Use your action to force leap to short range.

Next turn use hawk bat swoop to be able to engage and attack in the same action. You cannot use leap to engage. If you don't have hawk bat swoop you can use your maneuver to engage then you can attack.

Force leap doesn't get you any further than a standard move maneuver does,

Standard move maneuver can get you the following

1/ move to another location in short range

2/ move from short to medium range

3/ engage or disengage

Standard force leap can do 1/

Force leap with it's single range upgrade can do 2/

Neither of these can do 3/

So there is no way a single leap can move you any more than a standard move maneuver and that is the range upgraded leap. In other words it takes 2 leaps to go from medium to long and 2 from long to extreme.

 

That is literally what I was asking Donovan Morningfire about this ENTIRE TIME, if it worked in the same way as move maneuvers for the distance you travel, because the way you have explained it here is exactly how it reads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basically Force Leap is only useful where terrain is slowing you down or preventing you from moving. I'm still waiting to hear if Leaping allows you to Disengage, in which case it would allow you to move further than a normal manoeuvre (Engaged to Medium) but since I asked the question in mid December I don't actually think I'll be getting a response. I'm considering asking again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, so what you're saying is in my previous example of a target at long range, you could leap 2 times, going first from long to medium, then medium to engaged and then attack?

Correct.

 

Syrath is off the mark because he's using the guidelines for changing range bands that are applied when spending a maneuver to move, which as I stated early don't really apply when using Force Leap.  Force Leap is literally "I pick a point within my range, and I land there" with no real regard for the changing range band rules.

 

If the only thing Force Leap ultimately did was ignore terrain effects when activating the power to move to a different range band, then it'd be seriously underpowered compared to the Swift talent, which can be picked up fairly cheaply and lets you ignore the effects of difficult terrain.  As is, it takes 30 XP (base power + 2 Control upgrades) to be able to spend an action to Force Leap horizontally or vertically to any location within short range, and another 10 XP for the Range upgrade (up to 40XP spent) plus needing a second Force point (can be an issue for PCs with only FR1) and yet another 10 XP (50XP in total) to use Force Leap as a maneuver.

 

So for the example of wanting to use Force Leap to get to a sniper that's currently at long range, the first use of Force Leap (presuming the 50XP was spent and you rolled two Force Points) would put the PC at roughly short range to the sniper, at which point they could spend a second maneuver to engage the sniper, only needing to Force Leap a second time if there was difficult/impassable terrain between the sniper and the PC.

 

Now, if the sniper was at medium range, then you could use Force Leap (again with the 50XP set-up and two FPs rolled) with the Range upgrade to land right next to the sniper, since that is a point within medium range of where you started, and thus be engaged and as such free to use your action to attack.

 

Conversely, if you're engaged with a target and need to get away (like Luke did at one point during his fight with Vader in RotJ), you could use Force Leap to immediately land to any point within medium range, disengaging from your foe for free in the process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Syrath might be right on this per the wording of the power and if you compare our Jedi's to the Imperial Assault Game (I think they tried to make them compatible and many things there seem to be similar to how the rules work here). Diala the Jedi padawan does exactly that, she only ignores difficult terrain but also gains 1 speed (an increase from 4 to 5). 

This 1 speed increase is because you can practically "move" a 3rd time using this power which you couldn't before with the 2 maneuver cap. 

So yeah, it's a lot less stellar that we thought...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Syrath might be right on this per the wording of the power and if you compare our Jedi's to the Imperial Assault Game (I think they tried to make them compatible and many things there seem to be similar to how the rules work here). Diala the Jedi padawan does exactly that, she only ignores difficult terrain but also gains 1 speed (an increase from 4 to 5). 

This 1 speed increase is because you can practically "move" a 3rd time using this power which you couldn't before with the 2 maneuver cap. 

So yeah, it's a lot less stellar that we thought...

I'm going to cite false equivalency here.

 

Imperial Assault operates under an entirely different rule structure than the RPG.  It'd be akin to trying to claim that targeted ships in the X-Wing minis game don't get a defense roll because no such element exists in the RPG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are completely right, i compared them because of the "spirit of the rules" i get when i look at those too games.

But the wording of the power stays the same, it's a question of how loose do you want to be with the interpretation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, so what you're saying is in my previous example of a target at long range, you could leap 2 times, going first from long to medium, then medium to engaged and then attack?

Correct.

 

Syrath is off the mark because he's using the guidelines for changing range bands that are applied when spending a maneuver to move, which as I stated early don't really apply when using Force Leap.  Force Leap is literally "I pick a point within my range, and I land there" with no real regard for the changing range band rules.

 

If the only thing Force Leap ultimately did was ignore terrain effects when activating the power to move to a different range band, then it'd be seriously underpowered compared to the Swift talent, which can be picked up fairly cheaply and lets you ignore the effects of difficult terrain.  As is, it takes 30 XP (base power + 2 Control upgrades) to be able to spend an action to Force Leap horizontally or vertically to any location within short range, and another 10 XP for the Range upgrade (up to 40XP spent) plus needing a second Force point (can be an issue for PCs with only FR1) and yet another 10 XP (50XP in total) to use Force Leap as a maneuver.

 

So for the example of wanting to use Force Leap to get to a sniper that's currently at long range, the first use of Force Leap (presuming the 50XP was spent and you rolled two Force Points) would put the PC at roughly short range to the sniper, at which point they could spend a second maneuver to engage the sniper, only needing to Force Leap a second time if there was difficult/impassable terrain between the sniper and the PC.

 

Now, if the sniper was at medium range, then you could use Force Leap (again with the 50XP set-up and two FPs rolled) with the Range upgrade to land right next to the sniper, since that is a point within medium range of where you started, and thus be engaged and as such free to use your action to attack.

 

Conversely, if you're engaged with a target and need to get away (like Luke did at one point during his fight with Vader in RotJ), you could use Force Leap to immediately land to any point within medium range, disengaging from your foe for free in the process.

Id have to agree to differ here. Swift does not allow you jump across a bridgeless ravine nor does it allow you to move vertically.

In fact a simple 6 foot wall would need an atheltics check to get over with haste using your action for the round. A group of people in the way may require a coordination check to get through, all of these can be circumvented by leap or freerunning. Leap also has the advantage of allowing you three moves in the round because it can also be used as an action. Read the wording for move it is exactly the same wording for leap , leap allows you to move to another location in short range (worded exactly the same as move) and with range upgrade allows you to move from short range with someone to medium. Never once does it say you can engage or disengage, this goes back to the order 66 episode where they talked about free running but the same rules apply to leap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose it's ultimately going to be up to the GM as to whether a PC needs to spend an additional maneuver to engage or disengage when using Force Leap.

 

Personally, I don't see it being required, since as written Force Leap doesn't adhere to the rules on moving through range bands as required for a maneuver.  I also don't see it as game-breaking that it can do so, given you're looking at a minimum investment of 30XP to do so while within short range from any direction as an action (meaning you don't get to attack anyway) all the way up to 50XP to do so from medium range as a maneuver.

 

As for leaping over gaps, as long as said gap falls within short range, I'd allow an Athletics check to allow a PC to leap across it, difficulty probably set at Average for horizontal leaps and Hard for leaps going vertically/diagonally up, and then applying setback dice based on circumstances, such as lack of room to get a good running start.  Force Leap just reduces the effort to rolling Force dice, with success ensured for short range if you're willing to suffer some strain/conflict.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes you could allow an athletics check to jump the gap, however that is your action used up (skill checks require an action) so you just used a maneuver to move and an action to get over the gap. Leap does it in one maneuver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes you could allow an athletics check to jump the gap, however that is your action used up (skill checks require an action) so you just used a maneuver to move and an action to get over the gap. Leap does it in one maneuver.

 

Leap does it in a maneuver, if you've got the final upgrade for it. 

 

But no it wouldn't be a maneuver + an action. If you're just needing to jump a gap, then all you need is the action. The action to jump replaces the maneuver to move. Essentially, your "move" maneuver is upgraded to an action. It's the same with piloting a vehicle through difficult terrain. 

 

So in any case, you would still have your free maneuver to do something, like holster your weapon before jumping (so as to have a free hand, in case you fail that jump check and need to grab hold of a tree root...).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand corrected.

I got mixed up with the ranges between things and it finally dawned on me where i was mistaken. 

 

You always need to compare it to a point you are engaged with. Usually you would need to make one maneuver to disengage, thus moving to within short range and only then another to further this range to medium between the two of you. This power does this with 1 action or maneuver (if you have the range upgrade, otherwise it functions as a more robust normal maneuver allowing you to bypass difficult terrain). 

That means i come back to the fold and count this as 2 maneuvers instead of one, but leave the decision to the GM wether one needs to engage the target or can simply jump "on him" and "off him", though per the wording i would go for the latter explanation. 

 

Heil Merry i am back :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Donavan the real question comes down to being able to disengage with a leap (technically you cannot engage, no matter what, the best you can do is jump from medium to short range with the range upgrade), leaps description does not call out that you can engage (which Sam calls out that the power mentions this as a prerequisite in the order66 podcast, like it does with hawkbat swoop),

The reasoning Sam gave for why freerunning not working comes from the core book. None of the options given allows you to disengage (ie change from engaged to short). Disengaging safely is needed before doing anything else.

From the same conversation, referencing GM Phil from the order66 podcast, he states that using leap as an ACTION would allow you to be able to break off from one engagement and engage another. The importance of mentioning it as an action is key because if you could just leap out of an engagment then you could use leap as a maneuver and still have a maneuver and action left, but he specifically called out that it had to be an action, the only possible reason he did this is because both of your maneuvers would have to have been used up, IE to engage and disengage.

Hawkbat swoop allows you to make an attack roll with force die against target at short range and specifies "the being may spend a force point before resolving the sucess or failure of the check to engage the target immediately as an incidental" Note that in this power it has to call out that you get to engage as part of the same action. This wording is nowhere to be seen in leap section of the rules. Even the wording it does do is identical to 2 of the three descriptions of the move maneuver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes you could allow an athletics check to jump the gap, however that is your action used up (skill checks require an action) so you just used a maneuver to move and an action to get over the gap. Leap does it in one maneuver.

Leap does it in a maneuver, if you've got the final upgrade for it.

But no it wouldn't be a maneuver + an action. If you're just needing to jump a gap, then all you need is the action. The action to jump replaces the maneuver to move. Essentially, your "move" maneuver is upgraded to an action. It's the same with piloting a vehicle through difficult terrain.

So in any case, you would still have your free maneuver to do something, like holster your weapon before jumping (so as to have a free hand, in case you fail that jump check and need to grab hold of a tree root...).

Im fine with that but that only comes into play, you make an atheltics check to jump to the other side of a 2 metre ravine, this gets you to the other side of the ravine. If there was a doorway 5 metres away, you have another move maneuver to get there (ie the check gets you over the ravine , but you need the move maneuver to go to another location in short range). If this doorway was in short range of where you began or even medium range (with the upgrade) then you could leap straight to it. As you are now in shortrange to the doornat the end of the leap , you can now engage the door as an incidental (as can the person who jumped but they took an action and a maneuver to get there).

So summary of events

1. Person without leap, uses athletics to jump the ravine -action

2. Uses a maneuver ti move to another location in short range (which wss originally at short range from his immediate start point) , or can use a maneuver to move from medium to short if the door was at medium range from his initial start poit.

3. Incidental to engage door.

So now he is standing beside the door ready to use his maneuver to open (for 2 strain or could use advantage from the leap to bypass the strain cost to say the momentum carried him the way here and uses his free maneuver to open the door

Person with leap with range upgrade and maneuver upgrade (whcih I have been assuming in all my posts thus far because the whole thread has been about being able to leap 3 times a round)

1 use leap as a maneuver to leap to a short range of door that is originally at medium range.

2 use an incidental to engage the door

3 use his second maneuver (for 2 strain normally) to open the door

4 now that the door is open he spots opponents at short range so uses quick draw, or a drawn weapon to shoot at them or hawkbat swoop to engage them this is his action (edit or if they felt prudence was the better part of valor, force leap back across the ravine, all in the same round)

See the benefit of leap in these situations, it is even more beneficial if you are moving vertically.

Now if instead of jumping to a door you are jumping to an enemy , then you can no longer engage or disnegage as an incidental, for this you need to use up another maneuver. Leap will only get you to short range. The game does not allow attacks of opportunity. Instead you are FORCED to use a maneuver to engage or disengage from an enemy safely (it calls this out this in all 3 cores-*).

This is the reason why Sam called out that freerunning couldnt move you from one engagement to another and why GM Phil called out that you could do it ,onoy if you jumped as an action (move and freerunning couldn't normally do it, but the explorers unmatched mobility could allow either of these options to also work, as could the talent quick movement because both of these let you break the 2 manuevers per turn limit.)

* not about AoO but the need to safely engage and disenage

Edited by syrath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...