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Enhance - the force leaping madness

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That's only if you literally interpret the effect as a "leap."

 

A number of GMs and players quite likely treat the upgrade as being how to replicate the "Force speed" effect we see Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan use in TPM to get away from those destroyer droids.  Zero vertical or diagonal movement, but plenty of horizontal movement in the opposite direction from those droidekas.

 

 

Fair enough. Even if you run with that narrative description, though, I think a GM is still justified in saying that a force user operating in tight, twisty corridors on a ship can't manage the same kind of absolute distance traveled that they can in an open field, underlining the abstract nature of range bands. A player who insists that because they covered 100 meters in the open in one maneuver, they should be able to do the same on a submarine, is going to get a raised eyebrow.

 

 

If they are trying to cover the same distance, but instead of a straight line, it being multiple turns in corridors, I might allow an athletics check, or coordination check, to basically let them try and parkour it.  That if they succeed, they are able to basically maintain their momentum and bounce from wall to wall, or grab some hanging pipe or handrail, and redirect their velocity around the corner, as part of the same action.  I can see that to a degree, but I would personally caution the player to be sparing with that kind of munchkinizing of the system.  Being able to force leap down a hallway in a single leap is pretty badass all by itself.   Being occasionally limited to smaller acrobatics due to environment isn't handicapping his character, anymore than a professional parkour isn't jumping up walls when he's in a room, simply because there's a freaking ceiling right there and he doesn't want to  bonk his head.

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As for the range bands varying with locale, sure, I'm on board with that, but only within reason. For larger effect and adjustments you would use difficult terrain, which this power arguably ignores. Even some types of impassable terrain is arguably possible with this power.

 

Regarding the comparisons, I never saw the force speed as the equivalent of being a speedster or the Hulk, but fair enough.

 

I dunno, the shot of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in Ep 1. blitzing away from the destroyer droids was pretty "speedster" in it's presentation.  They literally moved at a blur, and were gone before you could even really focus on them visually.

 

Also, considering how fast they achieved that speed, they didn't need much room for preparing for the leap, if they wanted to make one.

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Guest cimmerianthief

Thanks for this question, and for other posters' kindness without flames or trolls.

 

I guess the biggest question I might have, as I expect to adjudicate this work as GM, is usually pretty simple:

How much has the character invested into this ability? If they've decided that they are going to have a mighty leaper from the onset of character creation, I think we've shown that this character can go very far and in short time, and imagine most encounters are going to allow flexible use of leaping. We don't know exactly how far "far" is, so we are speaking in relative terms. 

 

At the end of the day, this character is simply running away-or-to something, which sets up a lot of other encounters. I cannot see (yet am open to suggestions) of seeing how leaping could be game breaking. Moreso, I don't think the ability would be a problem more than once, when GMs can adapt to how the player may want to abuse the leaping.

 

I ask because I don't know: has this thread gone into RAW mandates more than narrative opportunities? 

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Only one of our players has Force Leap and our poor GM keeps forgetting this fact.

 

So at one point he had a hostage at Medium distance, assuming we wouldn't be able to act at all and forgot that, guess what, tie the Seer's super-high Iniative rolls with the Ataru Striker who can leap to medium range as a maneouver and has Quick Draw on their double-bladed lightsaber leads to a powerful attack and then using the other maneouver to get the hostage away. But given that this player has spent almost all their XP on Enhance and combat skills, the GM isn't going to deny him his moments of cool.

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Force speed is also portrayed here in the Clone Wars series when Ahsoka is trying to escape. Thanks to the power of the internet, here is a link:

 

 

You can clearly see in the first 20 sec of the clip how she is much faster than the troopers who are chasing her and she is using her Force Leaps and i'd say Enhance to gain ground on them.

This also makes sense with how this enhance power is portrayed here being 2 maneuvers instead of one, twice the speed just like Ahsoka has. 

I really loved this part  :)

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Can you really still take the force leap action once you made force leap a maneuver? I am a bit skeptical on the 3x per turn instead of 2 times per turn and still do an action. 

 

Any ability that can be used as a maneuver can be used three times per turn, because you can take two maneuvers and an action and nothing is stopping you from using it once as an action and twice as a maneuver, since using it as a maneuver is optional.

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IMO, what has been described here violates the “Only Two Maneuvers” rule, as clarified by the developers at https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/page-7#entry1730171

If you want to spend two Strain and take a second Maneuver in a round, and then also perform your Action in that same round, then whatever that Action is, it shouldn’t be anything related to movement.

That’s my view. But you could always ask the devs for a further clarification on this issue.

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Can you really still take the force leap action once you made force leap a maneuver? I am a bit skeptical on the 3x per turn instead of 2 times per turn and still do an action. 

 

Any ability that can be used as a maneuver can be used three times per turn, because you can take two maneuvers and an action and nothing is stopping you from using it once as an action and twice as a maneuver, since using it as a maneuver is optional.

 

 

That is plain wrong. 2 Maneuvers per turn, no question ask, that is the limit, so it clearly does not apply to any ability that can be used as maneuver, but only to those which can be used as actions and maneuvers. 

 

Now, the issue here is that using force leap as a maneuver is written as an optional ability, which means in this case you are in raw indeed correct. You can use force leap as maneuver, but you don't have too and thus can use the ability 3 times per turn. 

Still feels not right and seems against RAI, so I have to agree with breadknowles. 

 

As GM I would rule that the text should read "Your force leap action becomes a maneuver" and leave it at that, but that would be a house rule.

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Without the manuever upgrade, a PC can leap only once (he needs an action), but with the maneuver upgrade, suddenly he can do it three times? Was this clarified by DEVs?

 

As a GM I would rule that the intent of the upgrade allows to use it as a maneuver, but not to multiply use of it during a single round. If a PC wants to jump far away, he needs to spend force points to activate the range upgrade several times.

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Without the manuever upgrade, a PC can leap only once (he needs an action), but with the maneuver upgrade, suddenly he can do it three times? Was this clarified by DEVs?

 

As a GM I would rule that the intent of the upgrade allows to use it as a maneuver, but not to multiply use of it during a single round. If a PC wants to jump far away, he needs to spend force points to activate the range upgrade several times.

Far as I know it's not been clarified either way.

 

But on the second point, the Range Upgrade's full description says it cannot be activated multiple times, so the most distance you can get with Force Leap is Medium Range.  Which is still a considerable amount of distance.

 

Personally, if a PC wanted to use Force Leap three times in a round, I'm generally okay with that, as they've invested XP in the power enough that they can go much further distances and have the ability to use that effect as a maneuver.

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I just think it's really greedy to use force leap 3 times in a turn. Already a leaper can get from short to long range in two moves, or from extreme to medium in 2. The rules state that a character can only take two maneuvers per turn so I would not allow them to take a third because it is not in the spirit of the rules. My reasoning is that even with the force they still can't exceed certain mechanical limits.

That and it would be super hard to plan for encounters that involve a character just charging out or into a situation from short to extreme in one turn. If it circulated that there was one force senstive like that, I would probably devise a lot of traps to make getting away impossible without some other checks; rey shields, booby traps e.g. The kind of things that a character can't simply just rush through if they ever got the impression that they could "just send that person in because they can run away if deal turns sour. That or I would introduce difficult/packed tarrian that navigating at high speed would require either athletics or coordination checks.

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I just think it's really greedy to use force leap 3 times in a turn. Already a leaper can get from short to long range in two moves, or from extreme to medium in 2. The rules state that a character can only take two maneuvers per turn so I would not allow them to take a third because it is not in the spirit of the rules. My reasoning is that even with the force they still can't exceed certain mechanical limits.

 

 

I don't have my books in front of me, but do the rules specifically limit a person to two manuevers?  I know you have your default one, and as best as I can recall, there is nothing stopping a person from using their Action that turn to also do a maneuver.    So, is there anything specifically saying that you can't do 3 manuevers in a turn?   I mean, if the action of the Enhance "Force Leap" allows you to do the action as a maneuver I don't see any reason this should restrict you from taking an additional maneuver as well.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, it's been a long time since I read those rules, but I don't really see anything wrong with this.  To use movie references for precedent, I seem to recall the Yoda/Palpatine fight in the Senate Hall involved them doing a LOT of hopping around very quickly, which could translate to them spending an entire round just re-positioning the fight.

 

That and it would be super hard to plan for encounters that involve a character just charging out or into a situation from short to extreme in one turn. If it circulated that there was one force senstive like that, I would probably devise a lot of traps to make getting away impossible without some other checks; rey shields, booby traps e.g. The kind of things that a character can't simply just rush through if they ever got the impression that they could "just send that person in because they can run away if deal turns sour. That or I would introduce difficult/packed tarrian that navigating at high speed would require either athletics or coordination checks.

Well that doesn't sound like it's "super hard" to plan for encounters, you just gave several very good methods by which to do exactly that. :P

 

Yes, as a responsible GM, if you have a player who has built his character to be a leap frogging machine, you should adjust your encounters accordingly.  I don't see how this is any different from adjusting your encounters to account for a powerful melee fighter or sniper.  It's  just a different form of preparation.  The fact that it's one of the lesser used form of character empowerment doesn't make it somehow wrong.   

 

If you have a sniper PC who can drop Rivals and Nemesis from max range with like 1-2 shots, you better take that into consideration and have defenses in place.  If you have a melee guy that can plough through minions like an industrial agriculture machine, you make adjustments.   If you have a character with a lightsaber, you give enemies defenses that apply negative dice to the lightsaber attacks, instead of soak.   It's all the same thing, just in this example, the issue is extreme mobility instead of extreme damage output.  

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I don't see why not there are a number of ways to exceed the 2 maneuver per turn limit. The most obvious and exclusive is the explorer SIG ability, however quick movement from the pathfinder tree allows you three maneuvers AND an action , and if that action allowed you to move in any way then you have 4 moves in one round.

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I don't have my books in front of me, but do the rules specifically limit a person to two manuevers?  

 

Yes, F&D p206, it's even bolded.  Things start to break down when you allow more than two maneuvers plus you start stepping on toes of Signature Abilities.  Converting an action to a maneuver is still using one of the two maneuvers.  The point of converting an action is so you don't have to spend Strain to do it.

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I don't have my books in front of me, but do the rules specifically limit a person to two manuevers?  

 

Yes, F&D p206, it's even bolded.  Things start to break down when you allow more than two maneuvers plus you start stepping on toes of Signature Abilities.  Converting an action to a maneuver is still using one of the two maneuvers.  The point of converting an action is so you don't have to spend Strain to do it.

 

 

Ah, ok, wasn't sure about that, me and rules don't mix well, and I tend to dump them from memory pretty quickly in most systems.   And if there are sig abilities that allow you to do 3 manuevers, then yeah limiting it to 2 seems fair.  Not stealing anyone's spotlight and all.   Still, using Force Leap twice, once for each manuever is still crazy useful in my book.

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Just to be clear using 3 force leaps in your turn is possible RAW you use your normal maneuver, then your second maneuver by paying 2 strain then the action as a force leap. A!lowing you 3 jumps in your turn. If you have quick movement you can have 3 jumps and still use an action . if you happened to start out as an exp!order you could theoretically make that 4 jumps and an action. Mind you having spent that DP and having to use a SIG ability to manage it as well as being the jump upgrades and the pathfinder tree in there they have spent a lot of DP just to do this.

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Just to be clear using 3 force leaps in your turn is possible RAW you use your normal maneuver, then your second maneuver by paying 2 strain then the action as a force leap. A!lowing you 3 jumps in your turn. If you have quick movement you can have 3 jumps and still use an action . if you happened to start out as an exp!order you could theoretically make that 4 jumps and an action. Mind you having spent that DP and having to use a SIG ability to manage it as well as being the jump upgrades and the pathfinder tree in there they have spent a lot of DP just to do this.

 

I don't think so.  You can't spend 2 manuevers (spending Strain) and then convert your action to a maneuver to get 3 maneuvers total in normal activities.  So why would you be able to do that with any of these other "convert action to maneuver" abilities?  It's the same thing.

 

It's like using Scathing Tirade 3 times a turn...I simply wouldn't allow it (unless, maybe, the player came up with something completely hilarious).  The point of allowing it as a maneuver is so you can still do an action in the turn.

 

So no, you can only do 2 jumps in your turn.

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Don't have access to my books at the moment, but in the Control Upgrade that lets one use Force Leap as a maneuver instead of as an action, does the say "must" or "may"?  If the GM is really that stressed about a PC doing 3 consecutive Force Leaps in one round, maybe apply a house rule that the Control Upgrade is "must" use a maneuver, and thus putting it under the default rule of "limited to two maneuvers per round."

 

Also, if a PC feels it's routinely necessary to try and make 3 Force Leaps in a single round, I'm wondering if there's not an issue with how the GM is setting up their encounters.  While not always the case, I've seen enough instances of players bending/twisting rules to their favor not out of malice, but as a response to a GM that they feel (rightly or wrongly) is putting the screws to their character, and thus feel their only viable response is to cheese the system about as bad as the GM is cheesing them.  I've seen far too may "killer GMs" that only cared about PC body counts for my liking (might be why the "kill them all!" approach in storytelling doesn't sit well with me), and seen players whose primary gaming experience was under such GMs, and were surprised to find there were GMs whose idea of "winning" was to ensure everybody at the table had fun and that everyone's character got at least one chance to "be the hero" and do something really cool.

 

So if a PC feels there's a constant need to effectively get to extreme range of where they started the round, maybe the GM needs to look at how they've been planning encounters; I've heard of one GM that had all his fights start with the PCs at long range, but only one PC had a weapon that could attack at that distance, which caused problems as the PCs invariably had to take two maneuvers just to get within medium range so they could have a chance to shoot the opposition, and left the melee-focused character pretty much hosed for the first couple rounds of combat.

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Don't have access to my books at the moment, but in the Control Upgrade that lets one use Force Leap as a maneuver instead of as an action, does the say "must" or "may"?  If the GM is really that stressed about a PC doing 3 consecutive Force Leaps in one round, maybe apply a house rule that the Control Upgrade is "must" use a maneuver, and thus putting it under the default rule of "limited to two maneuvers per round."

 

The tree blurb says "can," but the full description says "only needs to use a maneuver...instead of an action."

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Just to be clear using 3 force leaps in your turn is possible RAW you use your normal maneuver, then your second maneuver by paying 2 strain then the action as a force leap. A!lowing you 3 jumps in your turn. If you have quick movement you can have 3 jumps and still use an action . if you happened to start out as an exp!order you could theoretically make that 4 jumps and an action. Mind you having spent that DP and having to use a SIG ability to manage it as well as being the jump upgrades and the pathfinder tree in there they have spent a lot of DP just to do this.

 

I don't think so.  You can't spend 2 manuevers (spending Strain) and then convert your action to a maneuver to get 3 maneuvers total in normal activities.  So why would you be able to do that with any of these other "convert action to maneuver" abilities?  It's the same thing.

 

It's like using Scathing Tirade 3 times a turn...I simply wouldn't allow it (unless, maybe, the player came up with something completely hilarious).  The point of allowing it as a maneuver is so you can still do an action in the turn.

 

So no, you can only do 2 jumps in your turn.

By default the force leap is an action in the first place. There is an upgrade to the force leap power thst allows you to do leap as a maneuver if you want to instead. There is no need to downgrade your action, it's still an action. So you have your free maneuver in which you choose to use the leap as a maneuver, you have your strained maneuver , in which you choose to use force leap as a maneuver. Then you use your standard force leap as an action as your action. You have still only used 2 maneuvers.

With the talent quick movement you can do an athletics check (or any other check) for your action which allows you to add force dice to your check and use the results from the force dice to add a third maneuver (this is an incidental , costs 1 strain and allows you to break the two maenuever limit, but requires a check to use quick movement).

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Don't have access to my books at the moment, but in the Control Upgrade that lets one use Force Leap as a maneuver instead of as an action, does the say "must" or "may"?  If the GM is really that stressed about a PC doing 3 consecutive Force Leaps in one round, maybe apply a house rule that the Control Upgrade is "must" use a maneuver, and thus putting it under the default rule of "limited to two maneuvers per round."

 

The tree blurb says "can," but the full description says "only needs to use a maneuver...instead of an action."

 

 

I'm still not sure, personally, what the problem is anyway.  I mean, if the player does Force Leap 3 times in a turn, they aren't doing anything else.  They're not causing damage, they're not effecting the environment in a positive way for the encounter.  They're just moving their own location around.   To me, if the player wants to act like Tigger, coil up his tail and go bouncing around giggling the whole time, go ahead.   In the end the threat is still just as it was before the Flubberfest was initiated.

 

Is it under the concept of "well he can quickly close the distance and start taking on enemies that are at extreme range." mindset?   If so, how is this any different from a sniper for example, who, with the right talents, can shoot stuff at long and extreme with little/no penalty?  And they don't even need to spend an entire turn closing the distance.  They can just aim and pow, death from afar.    The Leaper at least has to do the following:

 

1. Spend an entire turn just moving to the fight

2. Isolating them from their group (and thus any support), since the PC leaves them in the dust.

3. Has to take an entire turn's worth of attacks, now that they've moved themselves into combat range of the enemy units.

4. Has to fight alone for at least a round or 2, while their allies close the distance.

 

Seems to me to be less in the PC's interest to do 3 Leaps in a turn at all.   

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Also with regards to scathing tirade as a maneuver it think you overestimate its power. The best result you can get with 5 dice is 10 positive results , even blanking the negative dice and getting lucky enoughnto get 1 success and 9 advantage you can do 10 strain damage to one target(bypassing soak). A jury rigged auto fire combat heavy rolling the same result would do 110 wounds (0 soak) 100 wounds (1 soak) 90 wounds (2 soak), 80 wounds (3 soak), even against a 10 soak opponent you are still doing this 10 wounds. Yes he can use it 3 times a round , but you're not going to consistently cause 10 strain dmg per attempt, you are lucky to get 6 per attempt. Tirade is situational at best,, as a GM can rule that understanding is a prerequisite to work and also diminishing returns, however its so weak in comparison to other stuff in gane that it's hardly necessary.

Example of the first 4 rolls I tried with 5 yellow and 2 purple

1 success 3 advantage

3 success 4 advantage

5 success (inc a triumph)

3 success

So assuming we have either a pathfinder with quick movement or an explorer with the signature ability. We have at best 17 strain damage against any one target requiring 3 maneuvers and an action costing a lot of xp and even a lot or personal strain.

For jury rigged autofire that first check alone would do 4*11 dmg = 44 - (4*soak of target), roll 2 is 65-(5*soak) roll 3 is 15- soak and lastly 13-soak. Even the worst of these rolls (without autofire) is close to parity to the wounds damage from a powerful blaster rifle.

Allowing the PCs not to use the talents they buy is a bit of a cop out IMO. Starting characters should be heroes a bit more xp and they should benefit from those improvements. Going down the path of cheesy one trick ponies is usually not good for PCs as they end up with glaring weaknesses.

Edited by syrath

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