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TheWorldSmith

"Grenades. You always need them." How true is that?

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My player's stumbled across a quick-guide-for-play and found that it heartily recommend grenades, grenades, and more grenades - and if you're not lobbing grenades, you are looking for cover, from which you can throw grenades from.

 

As players, or GMs, what's been your experiences with grenades? So far I've had mixed results with it backfiring on the party a few times (either due to scatter or not realising that their own cover was, in fact, a fuel tank) but it's mostly been quite effective. I've found that I've had to have an enemy or two so far that's been a grenadier who lobs grenades left-right-and-centre.

 

Do tell! :D

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I've had a mixed bag with grenades in my game. I personally found the old 2d10X AP 0 Blast(whatever can't remember) Frag Grenades to be a bit lackluster. Damage varied too widely, and average damage hardly seemed as lethal as one would expect a grenade going off next to a person should be (i.e. I am of the thinking that someone wearing guard flak standing on top of a frag grenade as it detonates should be chunky salsa). Unfortunately, when I attempted to fix it, I skewed it too powerful in the other direction.

 

Can't remember, does DH2 have the DH1 style firebombs that were way too effective for their cost? If so, those are pretty great, assuming the GM doesn't ban them.

 

The nice benefit is the lack of weapon training requirement. Anyone with an OK BS stat can throw one. The action economy with them is odd, especially if you consider it may be possible to Overwatch with them if you have Quick Draw (sorry, had to make a jab at that part of the system). And certainly, being able to hit a group is useful, as well, forcing them to move if they dodge, and that a miss quite often will still hit.

 

That said, I'm not sure I would as strongly advise for their usage.

 

What I would say the utility of having one on hand at any given moment, outside of combat, is certainly present, especially krak grenades. Need to bust that machine? Stick a krak grenade in it. Need to make a hole in the wall? Fine a weak spot and shove a krak grenade on it. The main problem with krak grenades is the lack of blast, which means you actually do need to hit with them, greatly diminishing the use of grenades.

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In my experience, grenades are pretty phenomenal for how they function.  Easy to toss, easy to put where they're needed, often with a variety of useful effects (my players love busting out the occasional Hallucinogen or Psycho-Troke grenade).  Need cover?  Smoke grenades (even better if you've got Preysense somehow, you can ignore that smoke and continue operating).  Stun grenades for non-lethal distractions/take-down attempts.  Fire-bombs to start fires.  

 

That said, KomissarK has a point in that Frag Grenades don't have much bang for their buck.  In my second ever session of Dark Heresy 2nd Ed, a player of mine tossed a grenade so well it bounced off of the target's helmet before exploding, and they took no wounds.  With the way the dice work, you could have someone put a grenade in their mouth, pull the pin, and it not do any damage.  I have applied certain house-rules to explosives in my game to make them more of a threat to both sides.  Pretty much all explosives (grenades, missiles, etc.) I added 1d10 damage and +2 damage or 2 Pen depending on the kind of grenade (kraks get pen, frags get damage, etc.).  On top of that, I gave most explosives Proven (3), or increased their Proven rating to (4) if they already had it.  That means if you get minimum damage on a Frag Grenade, it adds up to 11 points; enough to kill a weak person or maim a normal one.  Average damage is closer to 17, which will generally moderately injure even a Guardsman in Flak.  I don't raise it any higher because even though I value verisimilitude, I don't want them to be too powerful/effective.  As-is, everyone gets out of the way when grenades fly in their direction, which is better than standing there and letting them ping off.  

 

Cover is also a very important thing for when you don't want to die horribly; a good wall will take a shot that would put you into Criticals and tone it down to still being Lightly Wounded.  

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Absolutely awesome unless the scenario dictates otherwise. Ships are a bad call, too great the chance if sealing yourself in a now decompressed or on fire room, soon to be decompressed. Manufactorums are filled with explosive materials. Crowded hive cities, well, depends on your morality. My experience as a gm though is that frag grenades really need a change. They tend to be way too lackluster and varied.

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Don't forget the 'change out a die roll for degrees of success on the to hit roll'. Assuming you manage a few degrees, getting essentially Proven 2 or Proven 3 helps.

 

The other advantage of 2D10 over D10+3 - the lasbolt which is supposed to be a closer equivalent - is that you're twice as likely to get a '10' - which is an 'instant kill' against generic goons.

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Frag grenades were great in Only War, because obvious reasons, but in Dark Heresy 2 they don't seem to belong to His Imperial Highness Agent's arsenal. If the acolytes operate in a hive city or just crowded city, they should become famous in no time, because there's nothing that spreads across the town like the rumours of explosions.

 

Besides, aren't they quite easy to dodge with current rules? If not they should be. I'd change their stats so that main function of grenade would be luring the enemy from behind the cover - as it is in real life. This way you could set up traps, take greater control over the battlefield and with fewer lucky dice throws.

 

So as to other types of nades, they're cool, cause they add tactical depth to the game and sometimes make even nice plothooks.

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By that mindset, you might as well say power weapons, hellguns, plasma weapons, melta weapons and bolt weapons don't belong in His Imperial Highness Agent's arsenal either.  Or most any other loud and/or conspicuous equipment.  Why have las-weapons at all, those can't be silenced!  I can't agree with that mindset.  

Grenades aren't always the best topical application to the problem area, but sometimes the cure is going to be a high explosive payload.  And when you need high explosive payloads, a bushel of hand-grenades is a lot of bang for your buck.  No need for Weapon Training, can be thrown to ignore cover, very easy to Requisition, the existence of other types to have a variety of options in a high-stakes situation, all of these factors make them a great tool when violence is the answer.  Or when it isn't, less-lethal grenades exist to provide cover, distractions, etc.  

Even if you're in a hive, Desoleum as my example explicitly has an entire subset of gangs who use grenades regularly; personnel-scale explosives in a city so large it breaches the atmosphere at the top and covers an appreciable section of continent probably wouldn't make you that famous, because it already happens on a regular-enough basis that multiple gangs have it for an M.O.  That doesn't mean firebombing one of the Spire Nobles is a smart idea or won't occasion comment, but general use in areas where you don't disturb the day-to-day isn't going to be as noticeable as you assume.  

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Consider this (House Time)

 

OK don't touch grenade mechanics or stats at all - rather

 

If/when hit by a Grenade said target must perform a Agility or Toughness test (which ever is lower - reduces Min/Maxing players - known as a game foil)

 

For each Degree of Failure - said target takes 1 Critical Point of Damage - and if a vehicle or the like (aka a Construct) then that does Armor reduction instead

 

After that roll your normal damage or go through whatever game vanilla procedure the Grenade has

 

Simple though I not sure how the community feels about this LOL

 

Morbid

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I was surprised to discover that Smoke (such as is produced by a Smoke or Blind grenade) doesn't actually block vision completely. It counts as poor lighting, giving -20 to BS Tests (and I'm sure a few side effects that I forget for the moment).

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A houserule for grenades is they are more effective in cramped spaces. Especially ones with hard walls as the shrapnel can ricochet off hard walls and get a second shot at hitting something soft. Also the shockwave rebounds off the walls.  And less space to dodge in. So you could enhance the effect for an enclosed space especially with hard walls.

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That's a key element of blast weapons; in order to dodge them you need to be able to move further than their blast rating in your reaction - if you're unable to do so, you can't dodge. 

 

Normally, that's relevant if it's a blast (4) or more weapon - a big missile or something - with a blast rating higher than someone's agility bonus, but it also applies if you've thrown a blast (2) grenade into an enclosed room three metres across.......

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I just found out (not that I want that here in our game) that Frag Grenades in real life have a kill radius of a 100 feet - granted at long range its prolly gonna be BB sized shrapnel hitting the target granted at a velocity high enough toprolly go through the person! (aka Wow)

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Uh...  No.  M67 Frag grenade (modern US grenade) has a kill radius of 5m.  That's a circle of 33 feet, not 200.  And the 'kill radius' is the point where the casualty/kill ratio hits 50%.  People have survived grenades being closer than that.  The casualty radius is 15m (meaning the chances of being wounded are above 0%, chances of dying below 50%).  So the diameter there is 100 feet, not 200.  

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With the way the dice work, you could have someone put a grenade in their mouth, pull the pin, and it not do any damage.

 

That is especially poor story telling and GMing, but yeah.

 

Something I consider as a houserule is to give Proven X depending on the proximity of the grenade in the blast.

So at max range, no proven, 1 metre less than range, proven 2, 2 metres less, proven 3, and so on.

So a weapon with a big blast, touching directly the character, would make generally a little more damage than when it its further away. And it would fits with Mijrai description of the 50% or not ratio of the damage it can make.

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Grenades can really, really, change a battle.

For example, my RT seneschal went up against 16 remaining Inquisitors storm troopers (with RT and some House guard in tow).

I through a single frag into the middle of them after a couple of rounds of back and forth plinking,  as they were situated in a corridor.

Blast radius (2) is glorious, 2d10 is fun, the 3 Righteous Furies I rolled killing the all of the Storm Troopers and nearly killing the Inquisitor we had come to deal with.

So I would say yes. take grenades as often as you can.

I got a hold of toxin grenades and those things are fun when you are in sealed Stormtrooper carapace and the enemy isn't.

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I have a game concept - its my most powerful House Rule - its called "Dead to Rights"

 

Basically do the maximum damage then add on one righteous fury D10 to that (so if you roll some more 10s then well the damage will increase)...

 

Back to holding grenade in mouth > simply apply Dead to Rights - I'd not apply armor soak to that BTW - can't bite an apple with a helmet between you and the fruit LOL..

 

Maybe "this" could solve/help grenade eating - i dunno LOL

 

Stay GAMING

Morbid

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