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CeGir

End of the game?

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WTF did they really do this?

How the hell can they tell what manufacturer paint was used?

Yes, that's what I've read more than once. They have their own colours, like Goblin Green and Dwarf Flesh, which they're ready to sue over, no doubt. The Oldhammer movement may seem like grumpy old gamers, but there ARE too many dumb rules in recent years ;)

Current models, approved colours, approved schemes are all typical GW requirements. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get disqualified for placing a Chaos unit side by side with any of its enemies.

My goodness. Ill paint my miniatures how i want to :)

My paints are a mixture. Some are 30 year old discontinued citadel paints, some are new, some are vallejio.

Insisting on painted minis is fine as it avoids easy theft in store vlaiming stock was yours, which is where painted-only for store games started.. but insisting on paint type and colour, nope there isnt enough "F*ck Off" in the world for that.

Edited by alexbobspoons

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Its easy to assume that this is on FFG/Asmodee, but the reality could also be that GW has chosen to take back the license to diversify their product line.  They've already started to follow suit with what people like Cool Mini have done with board games with miniatures, so its not a stretch to think they are taking the license back.  With the relaunch of Specialist Games (yay, Blood Bowl!) as well, they could be spreading out into other areas.  

 

That said, it sucks if it turns out to be the case, but as a business that has invested in a product, it makes sense that they wouldn't make the announcement until as late as possible to maximize their return on any potential final expansions.  No news is likely bad news, but we still haven't heard anything and I don't expect to until pack 5 or 6 hits.  

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Here's how it works (read it with russian accents, except for disney. makes it better):

 

GW: You pay us more now for liscense

FFG: Screw it, we drop it altogether

GW: aw s***

FFG: And, we make new game to grab orphaned gamers when you replaced WFB with godawful age of sigmar

GW: double s***

Asmodee: hehehehehehehehehheheheheheheh

Disney: WHAT! HOW DARE YOU MAKE A NON-SW GAME! YOU HAVE TO MEET YOUR YEARLY QUOTA OF TWO GAMES AND 20 EXPANSIONS FOR STAR WARS STUFF!

FFG: We make you cheap, simple Star Wars TCG to put in Walmart

Disney: hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Edited by Toenail

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The rank and file have said many times that Asmodee /FFG should buy GW as they make more product that gamers like with the IP than GW does. It was suggested that just such an offer might have been made and rejected stating this little skirmish. I think FFG will be successful, drive down the market value of GW and end up getting the IP back at a discount.

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The rank and file have said many times that Asmodee /FFG should buy GW as they make more product that gamers like with the IP than GW does. It was suggested that just such an offer might have been made and rejected stating this little skirmish. I think FFG will be successful, drive down the market value of GW and end up getting the IP back at a discount.

GW hasn't made a profit in nearly 10 years...they aren't worth the asking price (check in again next year...)

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I am really surprised by the amount of momentum this topic has gained on this and other forums, with basically no real information. Sure, I am also a bit concerned with the lack of communication and news, and if this was the end of (what I consider to be) FFGs best LCG, that would be really sad, but man... This is some wild speculation. And I get the notion of "no news is bad news" but it is amazing to see how this snowballed out of control in a few weeks. And people are already insulting GW for pulling their IP, when they have no clue what is going on. Amazing.

 

Oh, and I just want to quickly comment on the topic of GW not allowing paint and colour schemes in their stores/competitions:
I have been playing Warhammer 40.000 since the first day of the 3rd edition, and this is just as wrong as it gets. Maybe (and really, I am just granting the benefit of the doubt here, I really do not believe it) a local manager pulled something like this on his own, but the idea that GW ever imposed rules on what colour schemes to use is idiotic at best. Of course, if GW has established a colour for a faction in the background (BloodAngels are blood red), they themselves stick to this, but this was never ever binding/restrictive for players. The hobby magazines and books published by GW always encourage experimentation, feature well painted armies by players from all around the world and if you wanna have a look at Golden Deamon awards from the last years, you will find some pretty wild stuff. The closest thing I ever heard like this was store managers asking not to use non-GW paints DURING a painting event/evening INSIDE a GW store. As that would have been advertisement for the competition inside their own stores, so they could be a bit iffy about that.

 

So yeah, I get that it is cool to hate on GW right now, and I might not agree with all of their business decision, but hold your horses man...

Edited by Zerodyme

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So, looking at all the past announcements to try and find a pattern, the last pack of cycle 1 was announced on their webpage on 12/5/2014.  The first pack for cycle 2 was announced on 5/5/2015, 5 months after the previous pack was announced.  The final pack of cycle 2 was announced on 12/1/2015 and the first pack for cycle 3 announced on 3/1/2016, 3 months after the previous pack was announced.  The final pack of cycle 3 was announced on 6/13/2016.  So as of this writing, it has been less than 2 months since that final pack has been announced.

 

Based on that, I think/hope we may be jumping the gun in assuming that there is nothing after this current cycle.  However, it certainly feels like this could be the end of the road for this game we all love so much.  Forbidden Stars, also a wonderful 40K game, came out on 6/18/2015, and we all figured there would be an expansion or two to give us the rest of the factions in the 40K universe.  It has been over a year and no info about an expansion at all.  So this combined with no other Conquest information can certainly make one feel like the end is coming.

 

The thing is, FFG had to either know well in advance that this cycle was the end of the game, or they had every intension to continue the game and suddenly GW was re-thinking all their licenses, which put FFG in a holding pattern.  So let's say this was suddenly sprung on FFG.  That would mean they would have had to have had a 4th cycle planned out and in production already and ready to follow cycle 3 however many months later.  Or possibly a new deluxe that had many cards for each faction.  So potentially FFG has put many dollars into artwork, playtesting, production of cards, etc. that may never see the light of day.  Or as I said, maybe they knew well ahead of time that they would no longer have/want the license after this current cycle and have nothing in production anyway.

 

The fact that they have Conquest scheduled for their 2017 World Championships is a sign of hope, but they could be doing it as one last hurrah for the game.  Hopefully we'll get answers sooner than later, but as a previous poster stated, I doubt we'll hear anything until around pack 6 of this cycle is released, in case it is the final product released and they don't want to chance people not buying the rest of the cycle if they announce it sooner.  Though I'm pretty sure everyone still playing the game is in love with the game and would still buy the rest anyway.

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The rank and file have said many times that Asmodee /FFG should buy GW as they make more product that gamers like with the IP than GW does. It was suggested that just such an offer might have been made and rejected stating this little skirmish. I think FFG will be successful, drive down the market value of GW and end up getting the IP back at a discount.

GW hasn't made a profit in nearly 10 years...they aren't worth the asking price (check in again next year...)

 

 

Games Workshop financial reports are readily available on the internet. Last financial year they had ca. 16 million GBP in operating profit, so I think you might be a little off with your statement.

Edited by Don_Silvarro

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The rank and file have said many times that Asmodee /FFG should buy GW as they make more product that gamers like with the IP than GW does. It was suggested that just such an offer might have been made and rejected stating this little skirmish. I think FFG will be successful, drive down the market value of GW and end up getting the IP back at a discount.

GW hasn't made a profit in nearly 10 years...they aren't worth the asking price (check in again next year...)

 

 

Games Workshop financial reports are readily available on the internet. Last financial year they had ca. 16 million GBP in operating profit, so I think you might be a little off with your statement.

 

 

And to be fair ;) 16 Million GBP pre-brexit only represents the sale of about 6 miniatures from current range pricing ;) ..... ok maybe 7

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The rank and file have said many times that Asmodee /FFG should buy GW as they make more product that gamers like with the IP than GW does. It was suggested that just such an offer might have been made and rejected stating this little skirmish. I think FFG will be successful, drive down the market value of GW and end up getting the IP back at a discount.

GW hasn't made a profit in nearly 10 years...they aren't worth the asking price (check in again next year...)

 

 

Games Workshop financial reports are readily available on the internet. Last financial year they had ca. 16 million GBP in operating profit, so I think you might be a little off with your statement.

 

I haven't looked at the numbers but operating profit is calculated without consideration of taxes so it is possible to post an operating profit but still have a net loss.

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If you drill deeper you find that GW is making the same or slightly higher profits on decreasing sales. Book sales are down but digital books make up the gap and have smaller distribution costs. Figure sales are down but the manufacturing costs are down and MSRP is up so they are making a profit on an increasingly smaller market. That system is self defeating and un-sustainable. GW will have to answer to its share holders soon.

 

Some don't realize that GW started as a distributer of D&D in the 1970s. They are the only company in this industry that has lasted that long and have come close to failing several times. The world has moved on and just as the management of TSR had to step aside for Wizards of the Coast and WoTC step down for Hasbro GW management has stepped aside for Citadel and the current team, which has lost touch with their own consumer base, will fall to another company.

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If you drill deeper you find that GW is making the same or slightly higher profits on decreasing sales. Book sales are down but digital books make up the gap and have smaller distribution costs. Figure sales are down but the manufacturing costs are down and MSRP is up so they are making a profit on an increasingly smaller market. That system is self defeating and un-sustainable. GW will have to answer to its share holders soon.

 

Some don't realize that GW started as a distributer of D&D in the 1970s. They are the only company in this industry that has lasted that long and have come close to failing several times. The world has moved on and just as the management of TSR had to step aside for Wizards of the Coast and WoTC step down for Hasbro GW management has stepped aside for Citadel and the current team, which has lost touch with their own consumer base, will fall to another company.

 

See, I've been doing the whole miniature wargaming thing, including both Warhammers at some point, for close to twenty years now, and for the entirety of that time geedub has been "falling", "on the way out", "just about to be bought out", "going out of business any day now" according to everyone on the internet, including industry insiders and armchair economists and enterpreneur specialists and business lawyers and PR experts and my mother's hairdresser and my mother's hairdresser's little dog.

 

Have they had a drop in sales in recent years? Yes, they have. Largely because of how humungously large the LOTR bubble was and how hard it burst. But they are slowly recovering from that, more aggresively in the last year. They're still a stable, profitable, multi-million dollar company with a global reach and will most probably continue as such for the immediate future, no matter how loudly people on the internet wish they wouldn't.

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Are they strong? Yes. But not in any sustainable way. The board knows this and that is why we now have board games, the return of Blood Bowl  nd other Specialist Games  and the resurgence of LOTR. They are throwing everything at the wall and hoping for something to stick.

 

Are they going away? No. The IP is just to **** good and Citadel make some of the best miniatures in the industry. Their game systems are far to bloated with history but AoS shows that fixes can happen.

 

The real issue is management and the current management has shown far to many errors in judgement. As someone who, like yourself, has been in and out of the gaming industry since the 1980s, my money is on GW becoming part of the consolidation within 3 years. Just as FFG its now part of Asmodee and WoTC is a division of Hasbro, Just as Plaid Hat was bought by F2Z then F2Z itself was bought, the industry is contracting. If GW does not have the cash to buy others, it will be forced onto the sales block.

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The health status of GW is independent I think from the health status of Conquest. Truth is we don't have many packs still to come (only 2) while usually LCGs have at least 4 months of packs ahead announced. We had no news at GenCon and in general there is nothing GW-related in FFG schedule for the next months but the final two war packs in the current cycle. And we had the RuneWars miniature game announced which looks like a declaration of war to GW. I don't see good omens around.

Edited by Julia

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If you drill deeper you find that GW is making the same or slightly higher profits on decreasing sales. Book sales are down but digital books make up the gap and have smaller distribution costs. Figure sales are down but the manufacturing costs are down and MSRP is up so they are making a profit on an increasingly smaller market. That system is self defeating and un-sustainable. GW will have to answer to its share holders soon.

 

Some don't realize that GW started as a distributer of D&D in the 1970s. They are the only company in this industry that has lasted that long and have come close to failing several times. The world has moved on and just as the management of TSR had to step aside for Wizards of the Coast and WoTC step down for Hasbro GW management has stepped aside for Citadel and the current team, which has lost touch with their own consumer base, will fall to another company.

 

To be fair, WotC was offered around $325mil by Hasbro for it's CCG patent (and it sold Magic and Pokemon CCGs) and to a lesser extent it's ownership of the D&D IP.  WotC was (and by most measures, still is) doing quite well for itself, but when somebody comes to you with the proverbial truckload of money you'd be a fool not to consider the offer. 

 

So I wouldn't say WotC "fell" so much as it got out when the getting was good. 

 

GW, like TSR before it, probably won't have that luxury.

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My gut feeling is this is probably the end of the game when War Pack 6 comes out shortly.  I really hope it isn't, as I truly love this game, and I think it's in such a good state right now.  It's probably the most balanced and diverse of all FFGs LCGs.  But it's not just the lack of announcements or the announcement of a fantasy war gaming product of their own in Rune Wars, it's that the playtesters have received no new cards to play test/balance after this current cycle.  

 

So that means either:

 

1) They knew long ago that this was the end of the game with this cycle.

 

2) They have new cards in the pipeline to continue this game, but for whatever reason they are WAY behind schedule in getting them to playtesters.  Which would mean that even if the game were to continue, it would be a LONG time before we got any new cards after the last War Pack of this cycle.

 

3) They had new cards designed and ready to get out into playtesters hands a while ago, but with the GW license either up this year and not knowing if it was worth the price to continue the license, or possibly having it taken away from them by GW, they've held off sending out those cards for now.  Which would also mean that if they were to renew the license, then it would still be a LONG time before we saw new cards anyway.

 

I don't think #2 is possible, as they've already experienced a huge drop off for this game, most likely in part to do with how long it took to get anything new after the Warlord cycle, leaving a very stale meta for a long period of time, and I don't think they'd let that happen again.  So it's really hard to imagine they fell that far behind again.  Especially with how quickly they are churning out the packs for this cycle, which they could have stretched out over time if they were indeed falling behind.

 

I hope it's #3, and that they are just figuring out the logistics with the license and GW.  Even if it means we have to wait quite a while before we see new cards, as I said, the game is in a very good balanced state right now with a good amount of variety in the meta to sustain a longer card drought.  But I have a strong feeling the end is upon us.

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